Read this: Hunting the Pentagon leaker

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello to very different piece of journalism today, we're looking at the big New York Times scoop into the identity of the suspected pentagon and a new BBC podcast That tries to solve the cold case of a boy from love you went missing more than 40 years ago, so digital sleeping and old school reporting will join by the journalist behind both stories to hear about their sources and the techniques they use to get them over the line with the Fallout 4 Fox News and Rupert Murdoch after yesterday 787 million defamation settlement you'll be familiar with the case Dominion is the manufacturer of voting machines use the 2020 presidential election Fox News Bret false claims about the company ringing votes for Joe Biden soda minion fired up the lawyers before settling for that bumper pay out and I'm alone was in the

Courtroom for the New Yorker and she is here Claire hello and just wear next do you think of this is the end of the legal troubles for fox or is it just to start well? I think in some ways, It's beginning of the end and Dominion had what everyone seem to agree was one of the strongest defamation cases that ever been an American in this but there is another case of those facing against similar in company with him or claims against facts, but I think they're still in box for 7 million billion and even more than 2 million, but I think giving yesterday's settlement we could see smartmatic insects perhaps come to an agreement to settle for a certain amount of money think it avoids for facts years of appeals.

If if they do indeed we would find.

So, I think we might see that the relax one.

I kind of get this off the table until this matter when it comes to Dominion and this big news yesterday when I was the settlement reported on itself fox did mention it I think 3 times they broke the news, but it's only been covered for 6 minutes.

I think it's on Fox News this is a story that you know was breaking news reading a lot of cable coverage leading you know radio shows here in the US that was certainly not the case and Fox News itself and network has largely ignored the store which is in a pretty big story for 4 weeks in months and I think they said when they settled this settlement agriflex foxes continued commitment to the highest journalistic standards, which Medway some eyebrows when they said that but I'm in apart from the money and obviously foxes reputation what else was at stake for American German

In this trial they try to make it through speech.

I think about me again had a lot of pretty.

I think a lot of evidence that that's how I knew that this was a lie that trump was promulgated if you took your first day with kind of say listen any case like this that a huge action against the media company for journalist and foxes line of Defence which was actually cut down by the judge and pretrial hearing be able to use it was that ok our reporters and reporting and his lies, but they were newsworthy and you recording and their news where the next week is the president of the United United States was telling them.

Do you really want to have a chilling effect on journalist with the report and what the president and the judge ultimately said you haven't talked about transferwise, but would flag these are incorrect and fastest didn't do that ok and in terms of.

How much I can have a fox make position themselves in relation to Trump's latest bid potentially for the white house and it does this settlement impact that do you think there's no secret that he does not like Donald Trump Fox News is credited with their helping getting elected originally very much so I think probably agree that facts that Trump is very good for Fox News is business, and it doesn't look like he's singing with the gop base as much as we put my back and hope he would of facts facts were fine Dr business people and they know that Trump is good for the bottom line and I would guess that they will continue on as they have over the past few years and being pretty about trump transfer another time.

Do you think that means that they behave differently there if he makes if trump makes misleading statements in the future this tell you that was key to this wasn't it?

What was have you know the hard right now? That is continue to have but I do think that this whole episode with sparkling internal debate about ok? How do we handle the time that there's really miss information their audience wants to believe but we also to protect yourself from paying you know I must be a billion dollars in defamation damages.

I think that's going to be a hard question for facts to navigate given the way that they are practising and I forgot to call it journalism, but the way their practises have been 20-minute journalism, and I think that's probably something in the bank before this premier season really kicked off and stuff right with the New York and thank you so much for coming on the media show thanks for having me you're welcome now Jack to Shere is a 21-year old American M4 Massachusetts and is currently facing 15 years in jail.

He's been charged with leaking classified documents for these alleged to have posted on the online chat forum discord earlier this year.

Documents reveal us assessments of the war in Ukraine as well as sensors of Secrets about American allies when the FBI finally arrested to share in first on the 13th of April the New York Times another chance and already identified him as a suspect how they did it is a fascinating story in itself and two of them here now one of them Hayley Willis works in the visual journalism team at the New York Times Hayley when you were outside his home as the FBI turned up took us through what happened.

Thank you for having me kill you so we identified how to share a digital sleeping with will talk about in a bit more on Wednesday night very late Wednesday night.

I jumped in a car at 4 a.m.

Thursday morning and we we didn't get no 100-percent if you was impossible, but it was certainly knew that he was very likely to be given and he was in this group.

Where do leeks happen then so we definitely wanted to get the chance to speak to him.

Speak to his parents to give them a chance to respond to this and when we arrived at his house.

It was pretty clear that already there for mailing their work is kind of driving back and forth along the street, but we were the first one there to actually purchase the house we spoke with his mother and shouldn't be too much and where are we actually said jack in South Drive onto the property.

We approached again to speak with his mother and stepfather who essentially told us so we don't have evidence explain some of that we're collected and they told me Jack would only be speaking to an attorney that would likely be there soon and 20 minutes of that conversation.

There is a surveillance plane flying overhead.

We soon published a story at that point of course it was quite happy.

I was already on to it as well and then with them.

Hour and a half actually took place so a number of vehicles shut up to the home men in for military gear with military style rifles and the property and of course to share history and you were there to witness it now someone else with a byline on the stories Eric Tyler is a researcher bellingcat.

How did you if we go back to the beginning of the way if you like with the beginning with your involved with that? How did you first come across the documents so I can basically way that was looking into these popped up on which is a popular messaging app.

There was a real channels that were sharing 5 documents in particular to be Doctor very truly David Essex

And looking for the first if I had this random telegram channel was the original source and from there at the back of my document and fortune which is the morning and then I'm going through on discord, but you said you you will live tweeting why you was he went to you were getting information from other people as you went along that's how you found out that it was on the school which is both good and bad.

It was good people dealing me up like that.

So it was good that people receiving information when I provide tips in stillorgan to my Twitter inbox, but bad because you're 50 minutes after I would said about it everything I find out that these documents are on discord that had been on there in a month before you work for the visual investigation earlier and that she was a photo.

I think of Jack to share a standing at home is kitchen that was a vital clue for you.

Just talk me through that yeah absolutely where to sign in the team team up with a few of us have work and previously this type of according to kind of did for their and two details in figure.

Originally were actually sticking out whether or not the documents that we were looking for sources that this information but not necessarily attempting to find who the weekend was and I just want us.

Identify a gaming profile if you are looking into their mutual friends to establish with trading details back and forth social media profiles the profile of a sister and she posted a lot of photos from inside the family home and one military Gear and he's standing by a kitchen countertop and a member of our team noticed that be a few of the documents were actually on a granite countertop and above a child for that exactly match to what we started there too sure if my home and another song which is where I eventually went the next day.

That was kind of along with the fact that he was friends with all these people running in the same circles about it actually seem to match the location for the documents and photographs.

Create a match something like that feels a bit more sort of police work in a sense, but I suppose that's what you up to you.

No like I think this is the first investigation using the collaboration but definitely listen and when you were talking to begin about you heading up to Jack's address.

I mean what was the plan at that point where you planning to confront or what and how did you feel as you as you heading there? I think we didn't know what to expect I mean.

I know I find America but I mean.

Other colleagues and our for military and so we are preparing for that being a possibility but you know we wanted to raise the fact that we knew he was part of this group that we were interested of information to share, but then we arrived on the scene and his parents responded to me the way that we are the kind of already secretly made it probably right that he was the source of the week and that changed the bed and ultimate you know we wanted to do are due diligence and give him a chance to respond if you his parents declined on his behalf that you will not be speaking with us and EU in contact with Hayley is on the way there and what were you at top 2 at that point.

Something was just to find the lead and the find the identity of this person's gaming profile which is liked all the people that originated in the audience watching and everybody else was going to happen in that make it worth noting is that the new about days before February 13th?

Accelerated their timeline for a while in so if anything you make jello adversarial to the process of absolutely I'm gonna come back to you both in a minute because I just want to talk about another very different journalistique investigation right now.

I mean this one is a BBC podcast has dropped this week for shout is its title in Campbell is the co-presenter you know welcome to the program.

You're sitting here with me.

Just tell tell us about it is a multi episode investigative podcast it is an examination of the murder and abduction of this and he was abducted off the streets of Putney in 1981 his partial remains were found in Sussex woodland turn on Slater in 1982 and our investigation is an investigation into what we believe is significant new information relating to a group of 4.

Possibly five convicted Child abusers Who operating between South West London and Sussex in around the late 70s and the 1980s and this is an investigator who was kick started when I received a phone call from from Sean keep you sitting on my left ear describing their sources just now and that was essentials of Fragments of its Fragments of digital information that they found online but you know that you was actually much more old-school.

You talk to that's right Sean gave me the tip off but then I started to investigate all of the issues relating to what he took me off about so I then that type of Lead Me to the front door of a convicted child abuser and Ivan interviewed him repeatedly over the course of three years speaking to him specifically about.

He remembered of the 1970s and the 1980s questioning him as to why he had titled and written a document that was found in his possession which is titled which is incredibly rare Indian name so I had to really scrutinise and ask him repeatedly why were you found with this document and then we later discovered that there was a fourth man who fled the UK in around 1996 and this was an individual who had been convicted in the late 1970s of picking up boys off the street in a car and he had fled in the late 90s to India and he explains in This podcast that he has a fascination.

Just like the other offender who was speaking with a sexual fascination with boys of Indian heritage.

I do want to bring Sean keeping.

Thank you for sitting there so patient dua for metropolitan police super duper detective but you're the one who unit as Colin said.

Turn on the potential link originally to my go to a jealous.

I go to Colin I didn't find it was a member of my I don't want that link was found out he worked on it and then after about 2 or 3 months.

We took it to some senior officers in in in Sussex please and gold group.

What they do for a major inquiries etc and always going well.

It looks to me that they were actually taking it seriously going to do something about it then left Sussex police took another contract Elsewhere and I found out someone's later, but they had all I had done was gone round and doors of some some of the suspect has mentioned and effectively said to you know he got a murder back in the 1980s and they said was no comment or than what you talking about and they close the enquiry down as far as I know that you're from that point on I knew that no further investigation was going to take place.

That's why I thought was ok.

What can I do about this? I thought it was quite insulting actually they use the words proportionate not proportionate etc.

What could be possibly disproportionate as far as he's concerned when you're dealing with a heinous crime of abduction and murder of an eight-year-old child and I knew that this is what I'm going to change so I thought I'm going I'm going to do something about this and you know I have given a statement they Seychelles murder had been on it schedule of cases that are assessed every 2 years old of a major review and then it was satisfied that all enquiries in relation to the for sexual offenders have been thorough and complete careful consideration of all surrounding information.

Obviously you took a different view you originally I think it was an anonymous.

Why you wanted to stay Anonymous in terms of talking to Colin but then you've decided to featuring the podcast anymore.

I think I'm doing the right thing it.

I knew that Sussex police investigate further.

Are you there for that no damage can be done to?

Because there wasn't any any investigation going on but I felt that there was at the strong opportunity here to take this further and learn more about what happened to the Vishal if someone would only devote some time and energy and and that someone is calling you a bit more from your more sort of traditional style.

I don't mean that in the majority of investigations on TV how did you find the podcast format? This is the first time I've done a podcast and we realised from the outset that by putting a podcast together.

It would help us appeal from incredibly privileged to know that Sean came to me and that's because I've spent 10 years previously investigating child sexual abuse within the Church of England so I think he thought that I was equipped with the right type of skills and was my sources became and the people who drove my investigation forward are the survivors and the victims of sexual abuse or abuse by this group of offenders and they as shown.

Me at the outset of this investigation.

They would be the ones who would be able to inform me and give me really key bits of information and it is their courage and bravery that really helped me dry forward this investigation, but I've really enjoyed it.

It's been it's been a rollercoaster ride a three-year investigation with riveting terms and I really want everybody to listen to it because it could solve a child murder a bit of it now.

This is when you can front convicted paedophile in Sri Lanka who was already on the run from another investigation and who you think has questions to answer.

No, I did not kill the schedule.

Have you heard of this case of Ultra

It's something that you would have known about that.

You don't want to make any additions to any Dr terrors house my how did you prepare for that Confrontation as a regional report.

Do you have to do live regularly? So you have to rehearse what you're going to say in your head and I had almost what I wanted to do what I wanted to achieve with the doorstep interview effectively I could have just turned up ask him a few questions.

He told me you know get lost close the door in my face.

Miraculously invited me into his property.

There's a dog barking non-stop.

That was a distraction and help me get in and I was able to plaster my way in and just asked him everything and he allowed me to record when I said I was a journalist.

You must fell term I don't know that almost allow him to open up and start talking to me, but there were significant inconsistencies in what he was saying I wasn't expecting the reception that.

To me either and Hayley can I just bring you back in I wonder what you would take his on the relationship journalist should have with the authorities and you get nervous when you're chasing the same sort of information that the police might be how do you view that? Yeah? That's a good question I mean to be honest like the simple answer is you are job entirely independently of what you're doing and you know questions came out of white the New York Times established the story and 2 hours later the rain happening then we talk earlier about like that time and of course the FBI was already on other news.

I think the reality is this like we have a job to do or job is to you know this information for the public good and what does it mean that a 21-year old shows on a chat where they were like me and you know what giving him and his parents the chance to respond and we wanted to do that regardless of the FBI

They were there and I'm probably us entering the property and speaking to his mother and asked me to speak to him was probably not on their schedule for the day, but that was that we can continue to do it.

Just like that and bring you back into from bellingcat.

You know you were key as well to this pentagon leaks story the Scoop do you ever feel rather than published the information you're finding perhaps you should just stop and call the police are there ever ethical considerations like that involved I mean and we have loads of things around my child abuse imagery things like that cos we've worked with them.

They have a lot of initiatives to use background items are from the girls.

So they have some very interesting.

Assistant with police departments because it's unique area bread compared to things like national security and someone I did call you and you ignored them.

Why was that come in when I talk to me and voluntary by the notice volunteer would become involuntary soon after and I asked you before do I contact me let me bring you back in a journalist of used to the police my god, you are there.

I know it's the right now for the podcast but will brought your time in the police.

What was your view of it was difficult for you and how much you're going to expose your investigation to them is very important that we we do keep a lot of information back because we know that is useful when we come to invest interview Suspects etc too much to go out on my always a balance of how how close and how how much we reveal but clearly we are very used to and know how valuable those appeals etc and having a sense to seeing you both Sides Now and do you think the methodology is pretty similar between the police and Janice and times are getting stories all getting over the line the other day and things and eggs and this is going to be big and that's what they want to do if that's if they're trying to achieve their goals.

I think there is a difference because obviously the police more regulated.

They got to act within the Police and Criminal Evidence Act and

They have to but also they enjoyed powers they have some investigative powers that the cooling here doesn't have so there is a difference but ultimately the aim is the same to try and find out what happened to come to the end, Cunningham special correspondent BBC you said people might come forward as a result of this you might get new information rights all the case.

Have you received any information on what what is the idea behind this that you might might get find me get Justice officials family so we have received some emails from text we have set up a an appeal email Michele podcast bbc.co.uk in the hope of people will get in contact with us because of Sean will repeatedly reinforce know a cold cases is Never Over really there is still always and that something that I've learnt of him and you know we have gave you information with investigated what's going on and we just hope that we get more people getting in contact with us know.

Thank you.

Colin Campbell and Sean keep with the podcast on the BBC Sounds app, that's where you can find it also.

Thank you so much to Hayley Willis for the New York Times and it told that have bellingcat and to the new yorkers Clare Malone talking about fox and it's settlement earlier the media show will be back next week.

Thank you so much for listening.