Read this: Head to Head with Elon Musk

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 one of the world's most powerful and controversial people with just a few hours notice the BBC technology reporter James Clayton got that Elon Musk dominating the headlines today and is here also talking about Disney plus is 48-in to European themed drama about the mafia and after a conservative MP was called offering to lobby from the gambling industry by newspaper.

We're looking at undercover where the month does The Telegraph Claire Newell and Claire welcome to the meteor shower one of your previous investigations ended the top flight courier other than England manager Sam Allardyce replaced by Gareth Southgate are you being asked whether that means you are personally responsible for England recent success of course you're totally much more about that later.

But we are going to do it first about Twitter because there was a lot in the exclusive and sometimes pretty bizarre interview Elon Musk says he only bought Twitter because I just told him he had to that he found constant criticism is hard to deal with and that his dog was now the company's CEO have a listen to a bed on my dog, if this is ok.

Have you got the great dark in the toilet and hard work getting by ok? That's good to know have you got any alarm after talking to the BBC James Clayton and you can hear that interview in full on America fire BBC sounds but James is with us now from San Francisco to ask you first.

What are the last 24-hours been like I mean I woke up yesterday.

It's going to be a normal day.

A couple of other stories and lunchtime about the BBC licence fee and so she said I'm asking for an interview so I just attendant attendant email about it and I think it's response saying yeah, let's do it.

Let's do it tonight.

I can quite believe it was actually happened and I'm having a big email about the gist x and y-direction be 19 p.m.

Because he don't have a be alright.

So he's doing it all themselves, but you know me and my film down incredible job, but we were just talking about how they going to happen and then true enough to take place at 852.

One of his people comes up to us and said by the way he wants to go live on Twitter spaces, and it's a non-negotiable.

Why do you think he decided he wanted that we set up so you know I guess I wouldn't say well should we do the interview on those times but equally put like pulling out of that in a very to do so everyone absolute madness and chaos you made of them and was he what you expected based on the fact that exactly what I expected and I've never spoken to him.

before exactly as I expected you know he he was very thoughtful he genuinely try to answer questions which a lot of people and he genuinely was thinking about the question equally he wouldn't be round to these kind of like bizarre tangency pretty humour and he thought that a lot of the car crashes that I was asking him what kind of jokes I know you just played that saying all my dog's I see you have Twitter felt like he was using humour to deflect off because clearly he doesn't want to answer that question because he said he was going to stand down from Twitter the actually asked a Twitter poll that you just stand down and the Twitter pull conclude that he and 4 months later nearly he hasn't stayed down and that's awkward situation and so he said I like make.my.dog the CEO and that's a way of kind of

Having a laugh but also not having to answer difficult questions and an interview like this in normal times.

You know you have a lot of preparation for it.

You probably will be didn't have time to do that and you also interviewing somebody who has I listen to the into thinking that qualifications where he turns the tables on you he starts asking you questions rather than the what was that experience like more than two or 3 hours to prepare for this.

I would have gone through the questions and you know how do I ask for someone who knows about what I'm talking about knows about tech and had a rough idea.

Maybe of what I lost my have said that I just didn't have that time and so it felt very raw also for me and you there were times where he was asking me questions and grapple grapple with the interview.

Probably engaged with him when I shouldn't have and just isn't about me so definitely lessons for me in terms of unaccountable Billionaire to tasker in the future, but you know it was it was he was being a massive at times and you was being slippery.

Also he was giving lie after lie after lie north of news, and it was genuinely trying to answer the questions.

So everyone I feel quite a lot even though it was kind of stressful and it did feel very raw and I'm looking back it.

I could probably asking better questions and handled some of his counter counteroffensive better and because with a meteor shower I have to ask you know you asked him specifically about his relationship with the media.

What was your takeaway what he said?

He said I said to him some people on Twitter spaces and then afterwards a very casual chat about a relationship with the media because he said that he was very upset with what the media was saying about him, but yet he also was saying that he hates the media and he thinks that he doesn't really like the media in that way and I can I send you that's really odd odd position to have accepted that your complex and he just said yes absolutely and you can really feel it when you speak to him.

He does kind of crave the media so sure that he wants he wants to media to like him.

He said he's off and slagging off the media, but that you kind of get a sense when you when you speak to him that he is he does want the media.

Obsessed with him.

He will say other interesting things and you do Regent point as well when you get someone that Elon Musk you have such a big following that pretty much anything you say alright about would you really well and we have this problem all the time on my covering tack because everyday we could cover Elon Musk and getting really good numbers on online stores like every day, but editoriali is it right that the taxi just covers Elon Musk and nothing else well, of course.

It's not so you know we have to back2balance whether you know a story really meets the bar of whether we should be covering Elon Musk I think the media generally love the same way of Donald Trump they knew that I would sell newspapers and it would get plex.

Is an and you know it as long as people interested in the media will be can you talk to explain that you had had some communication with him over at the fact that recording it government funded or were up until you spoke to Elon Musk anyway, but I just wondered in terms of how you cultivate these relationships as a journalist.

It's important of course to have a relationship with you can with Elon Musk but it's obviously complicated as well.

Yeah, exactly, I mean I've been trying to get in touch with you and you cannot you cannot just email address office in fact if you email Twitter post office you get a turd emoji so you will not get a response from Twitter press office to the only way is to either try and tweet on Twitter or try try the avenues of trying to get get in touch with him.

Do you think that you think Charlotte have two in a way compromise their supposed to carry favour with these kind of people who are just so powerful.

Look at my throat Elon Musk you know I personally have never I think been particularly pro or anti Elon Musk in public.

I didn't know what what.

But I don't think he knows to do an interview with me because I was sick of Fanta call.

I pulled my punches.

I think he wanted to do the interview with the BBC because he respect the BBC it was in the news and he's also very whimsical and email him at the right time he was checking emails and just decided why not actually spoke to let you know you cannot you cannot get an interview with Elon Musk it's a few days ahead heal a little get bored or it won't happen.

It's gone when you getting it something.

It's usually very short notice and that's just the kind of guy that he is ok or James congratulations on your scoop.and to the Telegraph Claire Newell he's sitting here listen to this.

I mean you know why is it every journalist nightmare to get an interview with someone like you.

I must be norbert's no notice at all a bit of a nightmare.

I guess but also kind of your dream to isn't it?

Interview when you just picked up and do it you haven't got too long to worry about it absolutely and James congratulations and you can hear anyone listen to this can hear the full interview on americast on BBC sounds I mentioned at the stars of the show that Disney plus add ventured into European drama.

Let me play you a clip of the good mother's which is an Italian language drama all about the mafia and the true story of the women who took their own family to bring them down.

The executive producer behind a good mother's is Juliet how she is the co-founder of the production company house Productions and you'll know loads of other work over the years like brexit the uncivil war Sherwood and they shall not grow old and you let welcome to the media show it has been described as a mob story with a female gaze.

What Drew you to this world that female gaze, but felt like such a side of fresh new perspective on the world that I think we're all sorts of quite familiar with is in many ways and putting those mothers and daughters wives at the heart of the storage and and showing the human cost of of the world that their part of them done the unsung heroes you know not not making that the kind of villains into Heroes again.

You know something that we've seen explored many times and brilliantly.

So, did you make it up because you're not ugly and yet the whole thing is in Italian it is and that was very prospect to start with get on Duolingo straight away.

You know all our cast and crew spoke the most fantastic English and made it so much easier for us.

I mean interestingly we didn't we didn't set out to make an Italian and you know we had a British writer who wrote all of the scripts in English we had a British director as I leave director but as as the process kind of went on and and and the concern that we had for authenticity it felt it just would have felt very.

Strange making it in English and so we set about finding an Italian producer who could you could partner with us and company called Wild Side who is work with very much admired and and it was clear that we we share the real to paste and and and so they rather brilliantly helped us achieve it in in Italian and there were quite a few challenges along the way as you can imagine.

What sort of challenges did your face and received I'm interested in it.

Just come out in the UK but it's already been out in Italy how's it going by that I mean and globally and I mean it's going down incredibly well all over I think you know what's interesting about Italy is is a

What's more familiar with those stories and and in fact the story of lager off low who's who's one of the young woman who has been told kind of question times in Italy before though.

It was very much about finding a new perspective on that and and they were incredibly helpful.

Obviously we're not as aware of those are Disney dropping all the episodes in one girl was it a week to watch release thing I'm not going like succession you don't for the latest episode for me.

Please find it now generate weekly appointment with you.

Not going for that know which is interesting actually when we made Sherwood that was something but that's incredibly important and and one of the reasons that we will really keen but it should be on the BBC actually as well, so but that doesn't tend to happen generally on streamers.

Didn't have affected the reception fantastic.

I mean let's take a step back.

You know somebody you such a key player in your industry.

What are the in the issues facing the industry right now? He's had a lot about how expensive it is these days to make drama? It is it is expensive to make drama and it's getting it's getting more so you know I think they're a big challenge is Finding crew finding spaces to shoot it certainly kind of every year.

There's challenge seems to get greater.

I think I think covid has has changed some of that as well.

That's of course made things but but I think you know it's also and they just read it and we talk we talk talk.

Golden Age in a sense of TV the stream is that Disney plus and Netflix have revolutionised drama and how is produced but not everyone is happy my writing in the u.s.a.

On the verge of going on strike over pay and I'll be doing well in this age streamers.

Yes, I mean I mean I think so the issues facing the us a quite different you know I'm not an expert on the the US of it but certainly as I understand it a lot of them relate to and how they are constructed and much smaller rooms been created that has been kind of one of the things that but she must have pushed for and shorter Arms of shows where about is you know that they take a financial hit and I think I think over here.

We've not tended to work in the same way and light has been said you happened.

But we've also had slightly shorter Arms of shows anyway, so that the set-up is different but I think I think there are still challenges for new writers getting getting your work screen and if you think about to have theatre feeds a lot of that.

We had you know during covid very very little theatre on so all you have been through that Media have to thank you so much for show us the good mother's and it is on Disney plus right now.

Thank you for coming on the media show now with the rest of our time today.

I want to pick up on another news story you may well have seen over the bank holiday weekend this was the latest better undercover reporting by the times 11 to the MP Scott Benton having the Conservatives with standard size reported that Mr Benton was offered a page advisory role by times reporters posing as gambling industry investors with the Benson didn't pursue the role and has referred himself to Parliament standards watchdog.

Didn't want to come on the media show to talk about this thing but we have two of the finest investigative journalist here to talk about the art of undercover reporting.

You've already had a little from clan you all the telegraphs investigations and Emily Keene is the producer and director of several BBC Panorama Santana 4 dispatches programs including last month's undercover ambulances welcome to you both and Emily tell us about that in that program.

Had a Whistleblower wearing a camera.

What did they find so when we started the programme we thought that we would be finding and ambulances delayed ambulances in the network.

We actually found out that the problems inside hospital and that was around bed flow and not enough bed.

Not star we found that there were patients that up on corridor on a scale that was unimaginable patients waiting.

2-hours and to get into A&E we had patients who waiting for ambulances 6 hours plus outside in the car on the floor so a lot of the things that we knew about the program and actually shocking to find and see and presumably the Ethical considerations involved in terms of the Whistleblower who is an ambulance technician.

I think a paramedic and indeed the other people being filmed and that's something that you doing undercover program does the invasion of privacy and warrants the public interest warranty invasion of privacy and in this case the public interest to really be 10-fold greater because to film Inside hospitals in a place where people not only expect privacy but expected.

As well and yeah, they're very huge.

Who's that? You have to get through in order to to get secret cameras somewhere like that and Colonial let me bring you here we talking about all this because of the Times is Scott Benton story you've also gone undercover with MPs before where do you start going undercover investigating a politician? How do you do it you have to have a really good tip off at the Beginning because you've got to make sure the public interest case is strong enough to be able going undercover and once you can get that signed off by lawyers and the Editors you've got to come up with your cover story which can sometimes be pretty straightforward because you tried to mimic was a man in real life or you might be scratching around and trying to come up with ideas, but it's a really long winded process and people I think can be a bit sniffy sometimes about undercover.

It's just the easy option with that.

It's not easy at all.

It takes a lot of time and you have to be really really careful when you're doing it aware of making sure you're not playing the agent Provocateur you're not pushing someone too much so you want to get rid of things but you can't be forcing them to say that and then when you gather your information you have to go through a second round which is looking at have you got enough here to be able to publish you're always thinking about the public interest and whether you've got a test and Emily what about the cameras on you both of you.

I know if word with secret filming.

Obviously that's the point of undercover her filming often undercover investigations.

What size are the cameras.

How do you make them? Is it difficult to make sure they're not seen well, we work with someone who designed the camera specially for each project and the cameras are.

But yeah, of course they're always concerned but you might have wires poking out.

She might have a battery come loose or something like that and that's why we will meet undercover reporter before they go in each day before it shift to check them over check the kit sometimes it goes wrong and you have a day where you can capture the thing that's incredibly frustrating, but it's getting better all the time you took a long time to get me stories of the line clearly when they do get over there good front pages leave the News Bulletin all of that, but what's the success the failure rate and how many of your investigations make it? I think generally because you're guided by the tip you know if it's a good tip and you think it's credible new kind of work it up then your chances of success are pretty large unless someone.

And I guess that's the issue.

You have to be careful of when your meeting and a parliamentarian sometimes they might think our son.

It's a bit off here because you've had to come up with a fake or maybe West case they recognise you and I had an issue about 15 years ago when people and still use filofax sizes and I was undercover and someone said to me, what is it facts and I said it's got my personal stuff in it and just have grabbed it back but those kind of things are really stressful it must be did you get nervous to get the behalf of the people getting out of your doing it yourself because it is quite nerve-wracking work, isn't it? Yeah absolutely I mean the 1st the night before the first when we do a long-term infiltration.

I think no one sleeps at all and you're constantly thinking what if and and and and what can go wrong.

But you have to keep your call and because these programs are important and they don't have him with a lot of hard work and and and huge amounts of preparation and training so you just that stage because Claire I mean in terms of the actual impact this kind of work has does it shift of dial Jean alesi in the way that other forms of Janet and can't sexier well.

I think sometimes seeing someone like an MP for example agree to taking some money for putting down a question or some other kind of dodgy behaviour.

It's incredibly power to just see it.

It's the kind of Proof you need to get something across the line and to make a really big impact Tel Aviv refutable and Emily is there something about covert film that can make the target seem guilty as well because he is just a statement from program is about the wrongdoing.

Yeah, I mean doesn't make someone to see him guilty.

I hope not because we're only seeking to find out the truth and find out what's what's really happening and undercover programs that can provide an incredible window into and closed cultures in two areas of British institutions that are incredibly and little looking in transparency and it's not about making someone look guilty of killing someone up.

It's about finding out the reality what's going on in a systemic problem.

It's not about one individual or one bad paramedic as I hope that that came across the program and are briefly for you is about to go and see the end of a window into what's really going on and MPs always going to deny taking a drive.

But if you have hidden camera footage with them accepting a bribe or some other kind of dodgy payment then that's the evidence you need to see how you're going to get it any other way, but it's tough to get really tough.

Are you really agonise over it? You know your previous question about the night before worrying.

I think there's nothing worse than actually when the undercover reporter isn't you is much easier to do when it's you because you can take it in your stride and you know it's alright, but when you're sending someone in on behalf of you or your organisation terrified.

That is a good moment and thank you so much to all my gas BBC technology reporter James Clayton Juliet how far from house Productions and Emily Keene and Claire Newell we will be back at the same time next week, but thank you all so much for listening goodbye.