Read this: The 'shameful' coverage of Nicola Bulley

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 today, what does the story of Nicola bully tell us about the media yesterday the broadcast regulator Ofcom wrote to ITV and Sky News after the bully family issued a criticism of them this afternoon the police and crime commissioner for Lancashire launched an independent review that will look at the police's investigation as well as their interaction with the media.

I'll be talking to a journalist who's been covering the case and getting the perspective of a former police constables were also taking a look at the conflict in Ukraine 1-year on and asking how it's changed journalism and join by John Lewis in the studio and also and Ukraine and monks them the BBC's Ola hello, where are you? Tell us where you are right now by small town called and that's about half an hour from the city.

Most people would have been hearing about in the headlines in recent weeks between the ukrainians on the Russians are very much welcome, and thank you so much for offering us the time on the media with me.

It's ok.

Catch you for my TV news John Sweeney and caterina valfurva and more from you all in a moment because I want to take a look first at the reporting around Nicolas disappearance.

Let me just play you a clip of Andrew Snowden police and crime commissioner for Lancashire who was speaking this afternoon has got very personal got very vitriol and it has felt but sometimes that's certain elements into 22 Xbox whatever information.

They can undermine the police investigation and I think we need to look at that and I will be reflections the police then you won't have a day of hands all of the investigation, but I think this is collection from the media around as their focus always been all elements of an idiot on finding Nicola or creating stories that will simply.

Through to the website Lancashire police and crime commissioner and I want to bring in the Guardians north of England correspondent, Josh Halliday and Andy Trotter a former police chief constable Andy Marsh remember his role during the 77 London bombings when he was a spokesman for the British transport police as part of his role there welcome to you both.

Thanks for coming on Andy I just like to get your reaction first to walk the police crime commissioner said there.

I think I understand absolutely right it clearly must be a review and of what happened there and equally I support about the Reflections not only from the police that from the media is clearly didn't go well from a number of perspectives and I think you should be looking is how can we make sure this doesn't happen again? I say that morning because of you go back over various events and Anna past few years.

We've seen this sort of thing happened in the past.

It's made much worse now by tiktok bio.

Etc, but we seen this sort of thing with the investigation of the murder of Joanna yeates of Milly dowler you seen the media to send on the scene and caused lots and lots of issues having said that when I was working for the media relations on behalf of the chief of police officers we did have DBS with the media afterwards to find out what happened.

How can you make it better next time and I think we've all got a look at how we can improve those relationships.

Look at each other's needs and try and ensure that we planned for the next big event that we don't see what we saw up in Lancashire you cover the story of the beginning and again at the end of the garden.

What's your take is absolutely right about what it says.

I think they will be lessons to be learnt from organisations from this case the police will be there conducting internal review of how they handled it will be external reviews of the police Handling of it as well.

I know that it's prompted quite a bit of soul-searching internally in media organisations as well.

Just in the past couple of days about how we deal with families in the middle of these extraordinarily traumatic events.

We do have codes of conduct and guidelines that we the vast majority of journalists adhere to let you know we're living in a world now where this isn't like 5 years ago a 10 years ago.

There was social media social media element, but it's hyper fast now.

It's hyper accelerated.

You know the advent of tiktok.is again change things from just a couple of years ago.

I think it was an extraordinarily difficult case for the police to deal with from a number of different perspectives and reasons but I think they will be lessons to be learnt from.

Quite wide-ranging number of organisations and the story I mean in terms of the ethics around it.

You know whether you types of family for comment without being intrusive you.

How do you do that sort of thing? Did you do that sort of thing as the starting point for always is what the police guidance on whether families which to speak in usually the police will tell you that a family doesn't wish to talk if that's the case.

We're almost certainly stay away not contact the respect their privacy but there have been cases where the police have told the media that family doesn't want to talk and it turned out not to be right the family were keen to talk that comes down to a kind of breakdown in the in the relationship between the present the police.

That's kind of happened over the last 10 years that we might come onto a little bit later.

In each case we will use it our discretion guided always bio codes of conduct and I will have my own individual you no moral compass as well A lot of the time at the quite fortunate.

There's not this huge pressure to be first or the first to get this exclusive interview we have all things a little bit more judiciously and sensitively and hope that in the end all regions value that and and I think that's personal the right way to go about these things and Josh relationship between the press media and the police but can I just get your stuff your perspective specifically when it comes to the family complain about sky no TV news that they'd approach them after the discovery of Nicholas body when they ask for privacy and what's your take on that clearly? I don't know the facts of what actually happened, but he further complaint from the family because Ofcom have a role in this and so we'll see whatever of comic.

Yeah investigation of print Media is a bit different I mean the Guardian is a very responsible newspaper.

There are others who are not who don't conform to those sort of codes of conduct and as I say we see the number for cages before so let's let's hope this mature reflections on this and not so that we can really start to work on work together to see how we ought to do this because this clearly can happen again and none of us want to see what happened repeated on a future event and responding details off request for information and Express sincere condolences to the family and they said they wouldn't be commenting further and Sky News told us that they sent the deepest condolences to the family of this difficult time and they landed received ofcom's letter and they're gonna work closely with them to answer the questions now and in terms of what Josh was just raising their do you think the changes made young people have been saying the changes made after the

Enquiry have had a chilling effect on relations between the police in the media and if that Andrew Snowden the police and crime commissioner said this afternoon.

He reference levels and he said there was a potential disconnect between the police about that.

Yes, just some accent that's true.

I think I think we should be careful not painting some golden image of what happened pre Leveson then one of the reasons levison was brought in was because of corrupt relation between some police officers and the media and quite clever.

There was a major problems particularly in London at that time there also very good relationship.

So sorry I was in the met at the time between ourselves and reporters association and we would talk regularly to them on and on and off the record because they were trusted people and then we could discuss background with put a proper properly so that they were clear about what the issues work that changed now.

Do you pick up that actually the police are more cautious about speaking just a lot more cautious.

And the guidance of come out from Levinson was tougher am I wrote The the national guidance for the police after 11 but does encourage the police with immediate worth a read is available online and I don't want the police to talk to the media, but it must be on the record from from name sources saving very exceptional circumstances if a legitimate reason for some background briefing because we were doing was unfortunate and relationships that shouldn't have happened, but I think we've lost the good things with lost the fact that the place in the mood did talk a lot more to each other.

There's a lot more understanding clearly a lot of those journalist have moved on and cleared a lot of people have moved into this space calling themselves journalists, so we got a very cautious about how we do this so we don't exclude other people but I do think things could have been a lot better on a number of cases of late if there been a better relationship between the police and the media the media had a job to do.

Helps the investigation and they have a role to the public service even the police.

It is vital that relationship is healthy and open and I would like to see it improve and we will talk about on the record everything's been important Off the Record background briefing is also important to get from the police in order to inform how you do you report him.

If you're not reporting what they say.

That's the way you frame something.

Yeah, I mean these are absolutely crucial to help the media both understand the context of a story at the before anything is published to understand how to frame the story and 3 also kind of Guide Our approach to contacting people who might be involved in the story but from my experience and this is coming over the last decade but increasingly in recent years.

It's almost impossible to speak to press officers these days because you pick up the phone and will say.

Can you put that in an email and that's the end of the conversation there isn't that kind of grown up adults Off the Record of background conversation that they can really help help help the police as well as help the media another interesting thing.

I'm saying there is that the College of policing actually has Media guidance for police and Irene yesterday for the first time.

It's incredible sensible it encourages police forces to have this open and transparent dialogue with the media and speak to Germany summer on a background non-attributable basis and give them information.

That's not for you, but can help them understand a story but it just doesn't happen and I don't know whether this is because you know this kind of culture isn't accepted by senior management in some police forces.

A friend who recently worked in a large police force yesterday he said that the difficulty is getting senior management on board with why you know what benefit there is of speaking to the media on a lot of investigations sounds like it's not in the right place and people complained about levison potentially are wrong.

It's more at the next level does of police individual police force level that that's the problem and I have to say thank you to you both coming on but I wanted to bring another catch you here because you're sitting in the studio and ITV have been singled out.

I know you haven't been involved in the coverage of course, but I don't know what you're tired was where I mean? You know people were talking about it.

I mean obviously you know it feels uncomfortable, but you know everyone with Dad everyone was really thinking about the family after the grief they've gone through and you know we're aware that you know what calm and our row managers.

The details of what happened I don't know what happened, but you know it's it's very clear that you know everyone I know ITV news is incredibly you know if their thoughts are with the family.

We are now going on to talk about Ukraine the conflict.

There is back in the news as the one-year anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion approaches and with me to assess how Ukraine has changed war reporting of course you speaking to just global Security azure ITV News who has a film called Ukraine 1-year on coming out at tomorrow Thursday on ITV with also got John Sweeney and this has been reported from Ukraine since the start of the war and caterina valfurva freelance journalist and producer and as he had a bit of the programme Orla Guerin senior in at BBC News and if I can start with you.

You know you've covered complex all over the world what unique challenges has the Ukraine war specifically posed you think.

I mean, I was saying nothing compares to this both in terms of the scale and the implications and the challenges that we were here last year in the east this time just before the Invasion happened, and we were expecting it although I have to say was on a bigger scale than I thought President Putin would invade in the eastern on one of the biggest difficulties here is the size of this country.

It is absolutely bossed just Western Ukraine on its own is all this big is Germany so you spend a lot of time on the roads on on very bad roads often you work at this time of year and in very severe cold.

We spent a night last week.

Thank you and we were filming at about 5:15 so present difficulties for for the equipment but actually also for the people.

There is another issue, which we felt in our team this week.

You know we've been working with local Ukrainian produces since the beginning of the war and With A Very Wonderful driver and it's not a stretch to say were sort of a family here at the moment and it's very tough to see the impact on our Ukrainian colleagues and then it stopped for us to see the attraction and the loss of life the absolutely needless loss of life, but it is far harder for those who were from this country and we were filming the other day and it is just one of many destroy towns on ukraine's long Frontline and that was actually the hometown of our driver and he came in but he hoped to go and see his upon the ruins of his apartment.

He knows it's destroyed but we were doing our filming the situation got a little bit too insecure and we had to leave and he couldn't go back but he

Touching the keys and his hand so I think for all of us and I'm sure all of the journalist John and everybody else would say the same you get very emotionally connected with the story and you end up going time and again and they look worse every time and and I'd like to bring Catarina forever because you are incentives actually what order is talking about you.

You're a Ukrainian freelance journalist during.

How do you fulfil that your role of living in and reporting on the war particularly? I think you have suffered in a really awful lost yourself at the beginning of the invasion of that.

I was prepared by simply because I was covering the sleeping Dunbar since 2014 I mentioned before Sunday from then you can have been working almost non-stop with this name nearest I can definitely tell you the difference because I also tried myself before I support recorded in.

I'm gonna come back and I can feel the difference within myself that when you record on a conflict on different complex.

You don't feel that attached as you are right now and should be working quite expensive and just returned from of working in - 10 - 15 and it's hard because you know when you come back to Keith Where I stayed and best two months in the year you cannot completely relaxed because every time when I come back to key of there is any solitaire blackout in my life is also affected by these as well and I think you're also you know you're suffering your own grief to is that right that you're

Killed in the conflict my mum died in the car on the 16th of March last year and I was not able to attend the funeral because Sam because of the worst and my father is still there so I was not at the funeral.

I was not able to take your final goodbye, and what is a horrible situations because there was no people over your even able to dig a grave because at that time Russia started recruiting local population who are officially Ukraine maybe just holding a possessive because of the necessity to you or do you not like they don't know how to do that so deep? I'm I would say that you never you think about this conflict and you you seem that.

I can't imagine anything harder but every time I speak to people like I spoke to a girl today.

What's father got me and who survived the occupation 17 years old and there is no day when I was wondering.

I'm leaving together with this people because it's just simply soaking testimonies of their you were in the you not doing it.

What's the weather been like from your perspective as it is really descale of it and and when you think of katarina's you know heartbreaking story even have to do is multiply that millions of times to get a sense of what is happening in Ukraine I think for many of us covering it you know what was so shocking was watching this developed at first.

You know me and I think John and order as well there before the Invasion and it was still uncertainty about what would happen if you know a lot of.

To be in denial when we're out there and they're number 24th of February you know it began and everyone sort of worse thoughts there emergency plans kicked into high gear but you know we've been doing long sticks out there sometimes six or seven weeks in one go and you can you when you cover this when you return to have half a dozen times over the course of a year you know that the people that you know the people that you work with but also the people who you are reporting on who you return to you know you become incredibly closer than when you become very invested in their stories, but of course you are just an outsider and you know tens of millions of ukrainians so many many times worsen than me all John Sweeney because I think you've been there for very long period is not the whole time and unlike Rohit Ola you actually flying solo your crowdfund.

Yes, I think that went to the wars in wonder Burundi in ach.

Been to Iraq Afghanistan Syria Angola it's a Cambodia trip.

So this is the BBC but this time the thing that's very striking about this war is it really is good vs.

Evil with feels like what I read about the Second World War II Feel Like to be in keys a year ago.

It felt exactly like what I read but you know stories of Malcolm muggeridge and Graham Greene 100 Rooms Soho during the Blitz laughing at the Nazi bombers because it's nothing else you could do and then this real real Santa this is a very different more.

This is you know.

This war has ripped up the 19:45 settlements and and this is War of of an innocent and peaceful pussy invaded by fascist dictatorship.

There is no pretence of impartiality in your reporting.

You make clear opposition is interesting on the phone number for John Simpson for example.

We talked about there being a deficit of impartiality when it comes to this war with my great and good friends and I'll warhorse Simpson because you're enjoying partiality which is very BBC Concert essentially means fairness, but it's perfectly properly.

I don't think I've ever cross the line on this that I have always been fair to the Russian army and Ukrainian army and the Russian of monkey kills children when Ukrainian army.

Tries to kill Russian soldiers who shouldn't be here so with the most single most striking thing about this walk is the fact that it is a war of good versus evil let me just because I would like to bring it all again the from the BBC at this point is that how you see it, do you approach it as a war as a conflict between Good and Evil I mean I approached by reporter what we see on the ground.

I think there is a difference between reporting and taking a position.

We all have our Private views on this Sunday or private.

You are not here to advocate.

We are here to simply save up.

We see in saying that what we see it is devastating and off and I think it leads to very clear conclusions and I think you have to be in your reporting but you also have to bring your your judgement and your common sense to bear so for example in the first few weeks and possibly months of the war we were.

Reporting noise that a target civilians will add a certain point that became not just redundant, but ridiculous because we were seeing every single day the evidence of Russia was targeting civilians, so I don't think you have to the Russian position every time when you know that the evidence is stacked up so high that it but that said I think it's important to try and bring an understanding of the prospective in Russia and one of the things that I think it's Saturday measurably to our coverage over the year has been amazing work of my colleagues Steve Rosenberg and Moscow into the feeling of ordinary Russians some of them back the war some of them are silent some of them Jones so I you know I think you try and get balance in that sense, but I don't.

Underground in Ukraine to be trying to give some sort of unreal balance about what the Russians are doing we say what we see if what we see is there every single day.

Yeah, I know accuracy and balance on necessarily the same thing and the whole point of us being there.

No point of a spending his long since there is to find out on behalf of our view is what we don't need to carry out that by saying well the other side.

So this is what we've seen in front of us is so infatic Lee clearance so often it wasn't so many times you know right across the country to get a good question because I would rather say that Ukrainian president of Ukraine has a full Monopoly on them.

Basically, there is a ban on the interviews with the commander-in-chief with because the only way to get access and have a meeting you want it's getting also higher to report in certain areas like when it was journalist who managed to get the tickets on on the second day after the operation work myself at the station, but then later on the president as well and with regards to report it hard to arrange the right now.

They're about 186 journalist according to my information reporting.

Very very very quickly John access.

How does that work? I know quite a few friends on Ukrainian army, so I've had a fab of access of actually.

I was at a press conference another thing we have an issue and we haven't looked at it for example the role of people who says that Ukraine is neo-nazi and it's a waste of time supporting Ukraine is the single most watched us cable TV host and he's talking nonsense so there is a problem in the all of the good reporting that flows from this.

There is a kind of why no information wall which the Russian side bike and we've I feel we've got a fight that too and that is the moment when we can have the end of show unfortunately because we have.

Time but thank you to you all all my guests in Ukraine in the studio and of course earlier Andy Trotter and also Josh Halliday talking about Nicola story.

I'll be back next week.

Thank you so much for listen to buy.