Read this: Charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent... and more!

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts on one of the pioneers of reality TV looking for charisma uniqueness nerve or tendon, Bailey's behind rupaul's drag race described by Time Magazine as one of the most influential reality TV shows of all time the company he founded World of Wonder has made documentaries about Andy Warhol Monica Lewinsky and Britney Spears over the years they also brought the comedy duo Adam and Joe to Channel 4 hello and I wonder whether for you.

There is a thread that connects all those incredible and different interviewees and programs the person that connected all is just things around me and I found ourselves interested in that your partner.

That's probably around it one day we founded the company together, but then I think the other thing that connects it is the sense of outsiders.

Joe for example we just a couple of kids making videos in the bedroom and Mrs before YouTube but they were so brilliant.

What are you doing? I'm sure he can know what I'm the shake it and I do love black and white cutaway why because it's cool.

It's every late night.

Show has to have shaky cam and I think it's always often people who are judges or dismissed or considered in some way that they exist on the margins whether it's in terms of respect or just in terms of visibility that we're drawn to because of those stories are England and compelling and need to be heard you and your company have been at the forefront of what's really been a TV Revolution almost unseen or unacknowledged TV has transformed our lives and I found the actually it's the least respected Joan Rivers in but I think is a pretty unrespected medium television that have had

Commercials and information as and televangelism and home shopping and public access TV which is basically do-it-yourself television come back to all of that but I wanted to talk to you first about rupaul's drag race cos you're probably best known for that's a huge a successful show it's becoming a friend of an Empire just for the people who might know that what should somebody that how it works.

It's a competition show to find the next drag superstar.

That's how it began, so it's a reality competition elimination show the jacket really is a parody and wants a celebration and the sender of all other reality competition shows you would like a disaster Movie no one really.

And outcomes the show rupaul's drag race RuPaul is a huge without RuPaul there would be no drag race Randy and I knew report him for a long time and we managed to him earlier on in his career and we sat down with him once and said you know we should do a show with you and it was Tom Campbell chief creative officer education really do a reality competition shows like no I will do anything but a reality competition show so off we went and lots of different idea.

You know what we should do a reality competition show and that's rupaul's drag race us stranger welcome home darling pretty quietly.

On the lgbtq plus Focus logo TV network it now the original us show has produced versions in Europe Asia Australia I think 10 countries in total even have a Las Vegas residency.

Did you always know it would go mainstream what you like? I would love to say yes of course but the answer is no but always loved after we met we were both film school and we were living in the village and we go to the park or the pyramid in alphabet City and see these amazing drag shows we haven't met you yet, but we just incredible and amazing about drag when we're in London actually would go to the Vauxhall Tavern and see the Divine David and Lily Savage just for Lily was host of The Big Breakfast ride and we always felt that dragons.

There's not marginalised but it existed in underground clubs and it existed on the margins.

Amazing celebration and satire of popular culture and celebrity we never really sore dragon terms of gender resources very Punk kind of things at once made fun of and celebrated craziness so long to answer your question.

No, but yes yeah.

We always hoped it would be and what season 15 US premiere of course yeah about that.

She said the drag races two gay men what sport is to straight man.

He said it's a huge part of the culture especially in America in a gay bars.

Have you put videos on the screens people watch parties people talk about the shower across boundaries as you talk about the how do you sum up? It's appeal.

Why is it so popular? I go back to something rude said you're born naked and the rest is drag and it's such an

The same you think I will that's funny.

That's cute, but actually it's true.

It's profoundly true and everything we put on is some kind of statement about identity or maybe a fantasy about who we wish we were and so really drag is universal in its appeal and I mentioned the programme spinel talk about the BBC and drag race UK is currently season on the BBC and in your book you describe getting drag race the UK as the Holy Grail why was it so important for you to get on the BBC will get into the UK anyway, you know I am British I grew up here and my life has been profoundly Changed by watching shows like Are You Being Served Top of the Pops I think that on British TV that was just a sense of camp but I just completely identified with before I even you really want it was and that rich tradition.

Danny Leroux you've got Benny Hill you've got can you have these amazing entertainment icon soup in fully out there just very sort of flamboyant and camp and I think profoundly important artists and so having that I was always always wanted drag race to be here in the UK but I tell you no lie.

I mean I went at work repeatedly until they were like please don't come round here to sell that show again take a long time.

So yes everyone says no many many times and a 6 years and as we started collecting Amy's and Awards I was on a look at the show about there, but you know but I always I always believed.

I know she always believed in the show to because you know there's nothing there's nothing so great as British drag.

It's different to the differences because just watch.

For a start that the UK version the language going to be a bit course in and we speak in a different way in the UK the people maybe a bit funny about looks I don't know how you was something.

I would say that does a truck driver element to it and the bits of cheerful and less worried.

It's not so much consumes of being Hollywood or and there is a lovely sort of end of the double entendre sense of humour show revels in but is you know particularly popular here.

I think bag of chips was the first one in the work grandma comes on and says something probably unrepeatable.

Listener pantomime means we respond to it a different way from the Americans do we definitely do have that panto tradition at the sort of Widow Twankey in the back of the horses and it's fabulous you know a marriage is also I suppose a puritanism in America that terms of the time you know but you made the original documentary as well and you're really interesting about that you have you face that kind of puritanism when it comes to RuPaul drag race on the States specifically not so much, but it's something that does have the nation to some degree in its grip.

I do think that the sort of this recent trend of sort of extreme right-wing trump.

Isn't it? Actually is puritanism and it is a sort of inability to Live and Let Live and insistence that there is I can kind of morality.

A desire to be essentially controlling about the lives of Others and the scene in American politics with trump and his like as incredible hypocrisy, so that they are spanners the bunkers ideas, but they don't even live by themselves.

I suppose what it is.

I thought about what I think in increasingly complicated x which that's where we live people have a yarn to turn the clock back and to go back to a simpler time.

Do you know men should be man and women should be with me why I should stay in the home.

You know all this sort of gender hysteria.

It all comes from a desire to turn the clock back and not recognise the fundamental diversity of of Life itself and within the context of that you have the future successful programme award winning across the world.

Do you see it as a barometer for changing attitudes? I don't think.

Political ostensibly, but I do think as a show that represents inclusion and diversity and the belief that you can be the fantasy of your imagination on by yourself and express yourself.

I do think there's any way it becomes the sharp end of the resistance and I'm in the office to say without rupaul's drag race but I mean I think you and your partner Randy barbeito had been had come because rupaul.and work with report for long time before this.

Show did you always realise that RuPaul oh? Yeah, you know like we go about our lives and life is great and then every now and then something incredible happens and you realised something momentous is happening for me.

It was like meeting row because there was no question in my mind all round is mine that he was a star.

Can you know what was the question in Roos mind? He knew he was a star and we have to laugh.

It was just really about waiting for the world to catch up OK well.

Let's go back to the beginning as you said you grow up in the UK your influence the desired by programs like you being served but you talking about your parents stopping you watching fat man when you were 6, why was that well, you know this is a long time ago and I think colour TVs will quite new I mean I'm quite old this point so I just remember it was so brightly coloured and I think I became of over excited I mean and it seems that I would became a disruptive child of watching Batman

Ridiculous and cab again, I didn't understand what it was but something about it was like whatever this is made.

I want to I want to go to that place and did that the kind of programs you wanted to make I think it must have done because I always gravitated to camp things magpies go to Brighton shiny objects for me something can be as a break and shiny object the first shows you the channel for collections of tiny things to cable and the States TV in the States local networks had to provide channels for anyone who wanted to have her own TV show so they wouldn't get money but if they wanted to make a TV show they would have to it and so eccentric people Ordinary People real people made their own chosen these shows were very

No money they were really kind of Punk and anarchic and in some way so bad TV but in other ways.

They were incredible TV because they weren't modulated and edited and professional every every Punk and so our first idea was to show that highlighted compound clips of these public access shows and from was that to what people watching in the UK at that point well, I don't think there was no chauffeur filthy the dog or there was no you know Mrs mouth there was a division where you could call in and talk to the has that it was lying on a bed in lingerie and you know have sort of naughty naughty chat so kind of shows on TV they weren't restricted by a remit to educate and entertain they were just onto themselves and did you see you mention educate and entertain us do part of the

Values did you have a problem with them? He hasn't you said that you thought it was a patronising although.

I do think it's amazing to the extent that there was no opportunity for anything else and I do think there was a fear in Britain that television was this anarchic force that needed to be controlled for the good of the people and they didn't look at it that way they were fine with anyone who wants to be on TV can be on TV and shoulders plus is a - is it in both that you have you brought back to the UK you pitch that idea of putting the ordinary people on the TV and play to give voice to minorities and to be a showcase for innovative television that was a unique opportunity and you will bring it from the EU after you write about living.

In the 1980s and you know it's it's as if the origins of reality TV that world what everywhere and not least through Andy Warhol's influence something how much did he anticipate you mean Andy Warhol anticipated pretty much everything but surrounds us now, but interestingly his passion was TV and he always had the TV on he said it was a friend and company and he never really had success with TV but what's the end of his life.

He made TV show and I didn't realise this for a long time but he started off as a public access show no one would commission is so so he did it on public access and then lucky for him MTV launched and then MTV bought the show you started out and then very sadly you know he died so he never really.

TV dreams he would have loved Big Brother in charge.

G I just that they're taking polaroids, but you know I think the factory in many ways was like a preliminary cast of rupaul's drag race.

So you know he gathered around gay people and trans people and Misfits and all that sort of flotsam and jetsam.

They hang out at the factory and I think the factory much was a kind of early version of Big Brother if you would have just love the whole look and feel of it you passionately forget Andy Warhol for is like I knew you were behind you and your partner and behind some pretty groundbreaking UK television like the Adam and Joe Show camcorders were the first time the mass population could get their hands on the means of making their own TV

With the start of reality TV you know what I do.

I do.

I think that that was a show in America on PBS I think it was called the family with the louds and that was a a documentary series about a family and it was just interesting that when the cameras were turned on that family that was in like 1972.

You know there was a UK version of it too and I can't quite remember which came first but I thought that was one of the Beginnings of reality TV and then I think another one was the Rodney King beating in 92 when the police were caught on camera beating up Rodney King and after that the police have been on trial because that tape because it was caught on camera.

It was it was on the news around the world and when the police were acquitted la just exploded in riots and 4 likes.

It was like a huge reality show it was like the world gonna sort of television and you had the same thing with with OJ when he fled down freeway from Dubai cameras and helicopters and everything that was another kind of weirdly life as a reality show I suppose turn off the Rodney King beating you gave that cameras to people in south central la was that transforming the way that technology was transforming the way you could tell stories are getting on TV it was but to be honest.

It was that idea came from the BBC the BBC community programme unit Jeremy Gibson and Robin got doing the series that was very successful in the video diaries and people would be given a video camera and tell their story and when the la riots happened and because they have

This type is Rodney King tape and I thought what if we did a scan of mass video diary exercise where we gave cameras to lots of different people in need to tell their stories so ring was an idea that begin with and that actually round on the BBC Story play Don't Feel Like then or worse you left the UK for America as you mentioned you went to film school in America and New York I didn't interview with Donna Lang who's the chair?

Universal Pictures last year and she was saying she very much felt about the same age as you I think that she needed to leave Britain to make a success of herself and you know did you feel the same way I felt that I didn't completely understand it at the time because when I was no idea really what I wanted to do and I was reading English which you know is the perfect way to avoid figuring out that going to start and I was really really closely lucky that I got this fellowship that allow me to go to film school, but it was for me.

I think I have to earn I think I was gay and yes, just got to gay people in Britain and there's a place for us and it's not illegal but I just felt I would never really.

Myself or necessarily accepted.

Why am I mean America offering it goes place and has traditionally been seen as this place where you can leave your past behind and reinvent yourself and it was Andy Warhol and played Quentin Crisp this incredibly flamboyant a gay character was just so mesmerised by the performance and at the end of it.

He's almost beaten up by some using the park and he says something like you can't touch me.

I am one of the stately homes of England

Stay around Bob smacked in a read only been through a punch him and he walks off and you learn that he moved to America and I just remember watching that I'm thinking that's what I'm going to do what time flamboyant and he was amazing and I just felt that I could I would be able to be myself in in the States did you ever meet him and he said if at first you don't succeed failure may be your style things including if you put on weight you don't need to go to the gym.

You just need a good Taylor also say I live in the now because the now is eternal.

Metabolism 0.3 feeling pretty amazing.

I hope you don't mind my mentioning that your father is David Bailey and I wondered is that true no because it's really funny because I do feel I owe David Bailey some thanks.

I've met David Bailey and in fact when I was a student ID for a job at regines nightclub in the old beaver Building and one day.

I was working there and David Bailey was in doing a photoshoot because my name is Fenton Bailey that's David Bailey and I knew who it was great.

I got a copy of magazine ribs and when I asked him to autograph it and then he said ok.

Yeah, what's your name and I said fencing Bailey and he said what name can you find it that this was in the 70s so I am the older Fenton Bailey

If you needed another one part from that your brother didn't have a great day living well and my dad also Ian Bailey had a great deal of influence.

He was he was nice that he's no longer with us, but he was a modern architect he was very great importance.

I just wondering as we wrap up.

What is next for you? You are there places for example would still like to take drag race or do you think there's a person could be reaching saturation point no because I think look I think drag is perfect for television.

It's about big impact on the small and our Good Fortune to some extent has been the fact that drag just wasn't on TV before then.

I believe drag queens are a future.

Don't start there like pop stars in the 70s.

You know I grew up watching Top of the Pops and I feel today's drag queens are very much like that.

They the gods of Glitter Rockin in the 70s.

It's good to see that they're on TV and also having hit records and then plays under the movies and I think you know I would like to see a drag racing country.

We're up to 17 and this year.

We'll see Mexico Brazil Germany Sweden and Belgique so I'm all for it the more the more the merrier.

Do you feel you have bought about cultural change change the society to that program.

I think the Queen's have brought about great change because they have shown that you can be yourself you can be you can create this image of yourself and you can do great things you can do.

Other people and I think that message is a great one for for kids to hear going up knowing that they don't have to be this will be that but really that they can be themselves and that hopefully we are just learning to be more I hate the word tolerate cos no one wants to be tolerated.

We should be able to race everybody and enjoy everybody for their uniqueness and a difference rather than insisting that they should be the same very uplifting moment to end the thank you so much and phantoms book screen age.

How TV shapes our reality from Tammy Faye the rupaul's drag race is published by Ebury press and available now.

Thank you so much.

Do you fancy the first Fenton Bailey on the program? And thank you to everybody else for listening goodbye.

Thanks.

Thank you.