Read this: The Story Behind the Nadhim Zahawi Scoop

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 taxi fares still dominating the headlines will be talking to two of the people behind the story and later in the programme Netflix films picked up a load of Oscar nominations yesterday closer to home the stream just bought it's first Welsh language TV drama Cinemas Griffin Williams restful see is one of the people involved in the deal congratulations.

What is the show called and what's it about? It's called a message been produced by Vox pictures and it's a it's got Mark Lewis Jones on it and you come early and Maurice Jones and it's it's a house.

That's a cheeky heist based on the adaptation.

Novel and Roberts also wrote The Script so it's a it's a crime drama, but with a bit of a bit of a twist sounds great and we will hear much more about it later but

If you were watching prime Minister's Questions today there was more pressure on the Dina hawidi former Chancellor and current chairman of the Conservative Party over his tax affairs last Friday the Guardian broke the story of them.

Are we have paid a penalty imposed by HMRC as father an estimated 5 million tax bill something Prime Minister has said today that he didn't know at the time.

He made nadhim.

Zahawi Tory the stories come out into the open thanks to the work of journalists and tax investigators two of them all with us today and Isaac the Guardian City editor that story last week about the penalty list of the always been paid and Daniel is a format City tax lawyer who now has his own consultancy tax policy Associates welcome to both of you and Dan you're not a journalist that you've been blogging and publishing stories about that.

Are we since last summer to take us back to why you started following the story.

so tired to set up a micro thinktank tax policy Associates and people are asking me to look at this politician that divided tax and I did imagine it was rubbish that something out sooner rubbish rubbish and said that Street to be mischievous Jim Pickard ft and I launched of Information Act request is there any ministers have been the subject of HMRC enquiries and to my surprise shop between 1 and 5 and then there was something panic inside Whitehall I believe and then we got a correction HMRC saying that bad actually doing no ministers under enquiry which made you have to be Bernstein and Woodward

Can I delete win at that then there was that amazing story in the Independent claiming? That is how we had been under investigation at one point by the ncaas of an HMRC nothing Zoe denied it, but it doesn't know it being investigated so is kind of my days are dreaming about tax avoidance schemes not not in the last 20 years maybe they're not what does not understand you've got a client to thinking of taking over a company.

What are the tax skeletons in that companies closet because if you buy it and it finds out.

They did bad tax stuff.

That's going to cost you to buy a man.

So selfish capitalism incentives Drive company is acquiring another company and attacks was working for them.

Try and cover tax problems so the me to do that.

Company was not really any different from what I've been doing for many years to tax work ok and and this was last summer and you mentioned the Independent and I should bring in and Isaac use at the Guardian I just talk to me about when you got involved in the story cos obviously you were back at you in the end of The Independent at that point yeah, that's in early.

July last year I worked with Simon Walters and who's been a long-standing lobby reporter who was working freelance for the Independent that stage on the story about then HMRC investigation into the Harley and I was that was July 9 and that started to feed into a sort of a buzz around his financial affairs.

I should have lots of people have asked and done various reports over the years in a decade to sort of ask a few questions about where Mr Holly's wealth comes from he's been very successful person by all accounts has a lot of money so people have.

Taking some public interest examinations of of that money, but that was that was when Simon and I ring about the HMRC investigation for the first time ok, so that was the first we heard about it that piqued your interest and you started looking up looking at it.

I mean how much pick up at that time was there in the wider press about the story down so long.

It looks to me like a naive attempt attacks avoid someone very experienced former.

He was inspected it like man in the pub tax avoidance someone doesn't pay tax it doesn't work and that's what I thought we were thinking taxi be avoided so when the valuable YouGov shares ended up being sold building a happy as much as 27 billion quid maybe more.

Sally pay tax scheme worked didn't know the outcome of a question as to how we pay tax and this was covered at Again by Jim Pickard ft.

Ok, so is interesting that we now in a fast forward to January it's a long time after last summer and it's taken this long for universe on early this month did well.

I'm sure we'll get to that in a minute, but I want to say it's a long time because the sun broke this story that he paid billions in tax then you follow it up and with your story about how some of that £1000000 was a penalty but it's been rambling on since July to you.

Why you think it took so long to break your own presumably these are just very hard stories tax.

There is a very hard to it's not like you've got and this information and access to people's individual tax status.

Yeah, absolutely it takes an awfully long time to get to the point where you can be confident enough to publish something and some cases where you might have very little by way of additional information provided by the other party you also have to make sure that you've got really sound public interest grounds for getting involved with private information for instance.

So you have to redo and assess this isn't a fishing expedition and make sure there's a justification for examining some you know someone's private arrangements and have to go through all of those stages to make sure that you're being really found in the way that you're approaching investigation.

There are also legal considerations and well.

I'm not talking about this story specifically for reported in general.

We are finding there is a and sing use of Lawyers and the legal system to try and suppress public interest journalism and that has to be said of a huge consideration when we when we think about how long some of these stories take to come out.

You have to weigh up a lot when it comes to putting a story like this together.

It's a tricky process throat intricate and we'll talk about the experience you had with this should make the HMRC has made very clear they consider in terms of these hobbies tax affairs that it was a careless not a deliberate error which is what he has consistently maintained, but I wonder that same question to you Dan from July to now.

It's a difficult story to get over the line.

What was going on in the meantime and my question was did you pay tax on his response was to breathe on background that arrangements with vegetables and Company would you receive the shares and you got that? I think would have been his they were Justified because his father through this company provided the Startup capital and I looked that in a lot of detail but friend's account and helping me and decided that what he said was not correct.

Another new explanation that is not mention start a capital saying that his father provided know how insistence in starting you got that was really but now time Billy Campbell George Greenwood that down and couldn't find support the work that you have they got an official denial out of you and then made me say that I didn't believe the first explanation.

We've been given the starter Capital One at which point didn't get lawyers to write to me ordering me to retract and where you I was just wondering how you were you keeping the story alive on social media.

Will you go down that I mean what you doing when it came to a back and forward with lawyers initially I got a I was out playing with the kids and I got a Twitter message from someone I didn't know a Pot Noodle or that right her writing for Harley and

He said can we speak and don't know what to say to me you please put in writing and I won't accept without prejudice correspondence meaning private email from them which was headed without not to do which ordered me to retract and said that I couldn't publish we even refer to this communication.

If I did they will be serious consequences.

I didn't I didn't mention social meet you at all Barclay you know someone who doesn't drop you anywhere making mistake partly.

I I thought the email was so confused.

I didn't really understand what the position was and I wanted to I want to draw out a bit more.

I'm just going to talk to you for a second just to say I'm in Anna most generous presumably don't have the confidence to deal with legal letters, they are quite scary.

If you working in a company to advise you but even so there are fears around it, but maybe it help the Dam was a was a lawyer himself.

He can read the read them in a way no question and answer me to be valuable contribution to illustrate some you know some of the kinds of letters that members of the medium I received I would pay huge tribute to the media.

I had both the Guardian and the Independent he have to sort of way things sometimes a bit differently but have cancelled it and have sort of allowed each stage of this reporting process to go ahead know the stories have been published, but I do think what Dan's illustrating and there's a broader point here not talking about that again.

Not talking about the story of particular.

There's a broader point here about how the legal system in general might be used against public interest journalism there a lot of cases at the moment and prints of this one involving and the permission given by the Treasury

For the legal actions of someone linked to the Wagner group against the journalist Eliot Higgins so this what we talking about a broader context for journalism in the UK and I think it's really important.

We can do this is part of a bigger picture and that dance contribution is part of this bigger picture.

That's very important because he's letters are off-putting.

They are time between using the signal am I being fair am I being proportionate? Am I doing my job properly and that line between trying to suppression as in that's what are media lawyers have to try and wait for us and consider and obviously I should make clear that Mrs always lawyers said that they just a polite confidential letter through his Elizabeth II does to Mr needle to collect a few inaccuracies know this is fairly common practise legally Daniel with you chose to make the responses public.

Why was that?

Practise for libel lawyers to send letters which ask people to attract and claim their complaint letters and copy publish common factors and it's a disgrace in the Solicitors Regulation Authority I asked him has confirmed that this may not do that was interesting.

I just wondered whether you see yourself now as a journalist and if you do where you think you stand in terms of being impartial lots of people could read your blog and thank you.

I get the sensor you set the hallway and your sites and you know you were going to get him that that was what you were up to I mean it wasn't and if he responded saying for example and yes, I think there.

Are you making mistakes and what you said? I think identifying some issues to look at more close with my voice.

I'm going to do that.

I will get back to you all the details but it's confidential.

I'll let you know roughly and and thank you.

Dan you done something like that then only would I have walked away.

I would walk like that looks like an absolute idiot.

If I had as you can aggressively so it was his denials that may be certain in my mind and the way that was behaving they can get something to hide and it turned out at the same time was sending you those letters he was engaged in discussions related to settle the tax liability tonight to me that he had Anna Isaac from the Guardian journalists revealing how story has put together so so they showing the chewing and throwing behind-the-scenes is something of a trend these days and clearly.

We seen your Daniel not a jealous, but putting a lot of this out there on social media on platforms and working with journalist as well 20 years ago this was the thing that jealous kept quiet about to some extent and now it feels like we are working is much more.

I think it's important because it can share a consideration of fairness it can show his here at all the fact is I considered when I was working for you the reader the viewer.

22 to arrive at these points I think some of the constraints are always a little bit more sometimes in some instances.

We have to Prince in general terms be very protective of your sourcing.

So you have to be really considered about how you engage with with some of Princes legal letter but just in general with how you show your working source protection has to be paramount you also have to consider.

How are you? How are you and ageing when you know when you have this correspondence now prince the Independent made a decision and not there anymore.

They made a decision to publish some of the emails that we received by generalist was there between journalists and Mr Zahawi that's a bit different from the legal correspondence that does referring to but that's something that listeners might find interesting to take a look at but it has to be so carefully considered.

I think showing your working is about showing the reader why they can trust in your processes report you to do that.

I think it has been known for instance where there's been a call.

Reporting of you know Media court cases in the often allows material to go into the public domain in court reporting is really important part of what media CV long time.

I think it is the specific issue you of legal correspondence.

It's a case-by-case and you really have to consider all of the factors at play there when you can when you can make that decision and I suppose you've Dan has spent a long time being a source many years being a sauce before you became more front and centre in in in in these sorts of stories.

Is that right and to you that is complicated and finding experts in his heart now and I was happy to help that naturally never when I had a client evolved my Third Kind about your interests involved, but I was very happy.

And actually help me with this was it meant that I knew a lot of the journalists already and an awful lot of time on this you probably have to but you've got a job as well to do in the pressures in a Newsroom around a getting a daily story going and getting something over the line.

It's harder to get these kind of stories over the line.

You're jealous are under pressure to deliver story story about the DJ Harvey so they the ones we remember of course investigating is really hard to really hard to draw.

I mean I started my work looking at the Cabinets and this isn't the only tax story over in about a member of the cabinet.

I started really closely examining the taxi fares and the finances of cabinet members early last year so this been maybe a bit less on on social media.

I certainly been plugging away at it for

Retirement the Guardian in both independent and the Guardian very generous with allowing me time to take a look at these things but if you get this kind of store is keep them.

Keep letting you do it.

That's the way that's the way it goes.

Where do you see yourself as an activist now? I mean how do you see your role going forward as most of what I do is writing about tax policy problems in the current tax policy.

How it could be improved most of the stories.

You should have come out now, but have to be delayed because otherwise they crash into the hole in confuse have nothing to do with day-to-day politics one of them involves tax avoidance in a well-known industry on a scale which makes is it says that chicken feed and mother involves administrative and administrative practise which is caused harm suffering hundreds of thousands of people to think I really want to write about and attacks nerd I don't I don't have a desire to be tax witchfinder general.

And do please come back on the meteor shower if you get any of those over the line because they sound fascinating so I would like would like to Delve into the processes behind getting these stories out there.

So thank you both for coming on the program and Isaac Danny Dyer brilliant and before we move on there's another chairman in the news this week Richard Sharp the government appointed chairman of the BBC and I want to tell you about my interview I did with him yesterday since the Sunday Times reported that he had help facilitate a loan for Boris Johnson when he was prime minister Mr shop the noise that the commissioner for public appointments is reviewing the process that led to him getting the BBC JD shop tonight any wrongdoing let me just pay you a clip from the interview now examining your appointment shouldn't you resign or any step aside while they were confident that he will determine that there is a point of a merit.

That's obviously for him to conduct an investigation and press.

It was a highly regulated process to be telling part of it very tough interview a very tough.

To be part of and so I'm comfortable and there was an independent committee of people doing the interview and they ask you very searching and challenging questions of me and the other candidates and I'm sure that process was funny and carefully recorded so I can be monitored and seen where the my appointment was Donna merit and I'm confident it will be seen that there was the case with the full version of the interviews available in the BBC sounds just search for the media show but now have a listen to this that is the crime drama Delamere the last week Netflix announced.

They bought their first Welsh language drama the show was commissioned by the Welsh public service broadcaster S4C cynefin Williams have you heard from the top of the show is the chief content officer at S4C

From Cardiff and Adrian bait is executive producer of Dallas and co-founder of Oxford auctions also based in Cardiff welcome to you both and Adrien are you congratulations to the top? It's a crime highest we had some of the people in it.

Just tell us a bit more about it and and also about the practicalities of making a drama in Welsh the other program frankly you know we are we going shooting.

I think I have to speak Welsh the key technician of the directors and producer of the actors all are very much native Welsh speakers, but we interface with English crew as well, so it it's it have to be in Thailand washing factory the name of the show when it comes up on Netflix a bit rough cut because it's going to be any easier easier tired.all.the follow.

The story the crime heist diamond diamond diamond revolved, I believe is along the lines of catch the lightning so which is Which is with the diamonds and it's a story that that takes a group of a group of reprobates from South Wales ride at the North Wales it's got it's got some fantastic countryside outside all the all the Capers which takes us to Soho up to her Anglesey so I don't say too much because there's a lot of spoilers like I could be fair enough Anglesey one of my favourite places in the UK so I look forward to that is why why do you think they didn't Netflix shows it because it's when you've got so much choice and people looking for something with different USB I think it's full of beautiful cinematography of killer soundtrack.

It's based all over sort of glorious, Wales

It's also got that well sense of humour and she can ask about it, but it's a really fast paced highest drama that will suck you in and keep you there for the whole box at the bin John and anthracite think that you know Will Hughes be proud of it really closely with lots of pictures and the whole Talent therefore for such a long time to get this to Thrill the Netflix's recognised how beautiful piece of work.

It is and how unique it is and I think also it's because it's a really great series how big a deal for your channel.

Is it that Netflix have give me this Accolade and this is nothing new in terms of selling and globally we've done that for years and our channel strategy is to take Wales and Welsh Talent to the world where we want people to hear it.

See it.

Speak it see the value in in Welsh language.

Denies the Talent in companies like box in the producers writers actors here in Wales to have Netflix and pick it up to give that that stampy of this is something worth a watch but I think you know it's been out on our channel back in October box.

Set is available on the titles if your new speaker you, can you cancel a follow it but also it's for our Welsh speaking audience as well.

I'm in you made this drama.

Just in Welsh that little production company of my shows in English and Welsh at the same time.

It's called back-to-back production.

How does how does that work? I started I could work out how to do it at all, but actually.

I mean we we are the actors who have to be bilingual.

We made a show called keeping Faith wiki shot back to be interested.

Eve Myles who is actually wasn't well.

Speak the time.

She learnt Welsh and manage to do in two languages.

Do they do you shoot do you do the same seen twice pretty much? We will probably started we met by the start it start the scene in Welsh to English than do the exact replica shot in the other so we might go from English to Welsh and I will stay with the Welsh for the next shop.

Then we go to English the next shot and come back to the first sequence if you like and we start it all over again.

So we're literally frog you done a lot of this back2back Productions and you're all previous jobs.

Yeah, we are produced before I was at SL see when I was making sure.

With as well as well with European broadcasters and networks BBC Channel 5 and Channel 4 you know we've done here soc before the bad batch production hinterland was another one with the BBC so we've got a sort of a track record of doing back to Backs a licen the whole that's currently on channel is already gone out as a dolly on earlier on in the spring so we find we want to be really collaborative and competitive network we want to be able to come first back and that Talent can be taken across the UK and across the world and we also want to be making sure that we are adding value to the viewers back at home because we can you know we can add that the back or we can sort of take our content to a broader audience through acquisitions and I think you broke Gogglebox to Wales well.

Should anyway to Wales first time you bought a British format? What why and has it gone down but I think that's all season it is is transforming the channel for tomorrow.

That's relevant populations and that says our audience here and that brings people to the Welsh language as it is a PSB Gogglebox for us with a way of really reflecting and modern Wales and and the audience in all over Wales and the way that well spoken all over Wales you know we've got a really good relationship with Channel 4 so they did have actually civity on it in the UK and with more than happy to open it up just before the end you feel there is this growing market for foreign language generally on the streaming platforms and presume that this is changing the industry very briefly.

I'm afraid you seen that the scandi-noir evolution which of the French Revolution was shows like to give and new Pat and I think the one thing to realise is that the boot off the shelves so they?

And very best, so what they doing if they choosing the very very best stories and they haven't have subtitles and technological easy to access the apps to fascinating wish we could do more but we can't I'm afraid that's it for today.

Thanks to all my guests clinic Griffin Williams from S4C Adrian bait co-founder of Oxford actions also analyses the Guardian City editor and Dan needle from tax policy Associates the media show will be back next week.

Thanks for listening goodbye.