Read this: Staying loyal to The Traitors

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello and welcome in a moment Stephen Lambert from Studio Lambert on the traitors, which is already been a huge success for the BBC many listening would have seen it.

It's about to launch in the US to look at Christmas period and what it reveals about advertising from how companies are spending their ad budgets to the ads which are working the best.

We guess M&C Saatchi the barber shop and pink shoes on that first the story broken by Lewis Goodall from global's newsagents podcast it looks like Channel 4 privatisation could be off the culture secretary Michelle does the Prime Minister advising against privatisation there a better ways to ensure Channel 4 sustainability.

She says it's bringing Chris Curtis editor-in-chief.

Broadcast magazine hi Chris could have you back on the media show so is this the end of the matter.

I think it's the end of the potential privatisation of a whole series of new questions around the future of of C4 draws a line under the second attempt of the last 6 years to privatise the broadcaster and is interesting that essentially a change of a change of government change the culture secretary has bought a very different view in just a few few months time.

Yes and the former code 260 Nadine dorries, who held the job under Boris Johnson is already treated her displeasure.

What's happening do we understand? Why there's been a change in tax from the Conservatives depends on what you believe the thrust for all this was over a year ago.

I think you can make a good case that channel 4 got caught up in a minister of Culture Wars moment that it gave me an opportunity to make a sort of political cultural point about being seem to be sought off on liberal London and etc, and if you read the leaked letter that details the the change of thinking is quite measured.

It's quite possible and actually when there was a when there was a review into all of this for the government took the views of industry.

There was very little sense that the sector of the industry believe that selling Channel 4 was a central idea in the first place.

So there is a view that common sense has prevailed will bring in one of the most important figures within.

The sector were joined by Stephen Lambert from Studio Lambert we're going to talk to you in a minute Stephen about the traders this huge hit you've had for the BBC but I wonder what you making this news on Channel 4 invite please as Chris Riley said this was driven by a personal venom by Johnson and Boris who you didn't like Channel 4 Channel 4 News Johnson didn't like being replaced by a block of ice when you refuse to take part in the debate about climate change so there was something no support services again today refresh the idea that this sale could have generated money.

They would then be reinvested back into the sector.

Did you not buy that idea it so Ludacris idea the most effective way of investing in the sector is to have a channel invest buying programs from Independent producers the idea that you sell Channel 4 for what?

The symptoms of a small amount invested, I don't even know what you was talking about invested in the sense of any two ways of investing in best buy commissioning independence to make programs.

Is it what channel will invest owning parts of independent production companies that the government was going to do I mean it was a crazy idea.

Why you evidently word persuaded it seems that the current how to set the current government isn't though I should say we don't have any confirmation of those spokesperson for the department for digital culture media and sport has not confirmed a shifting policy.

It says we not comment on speculation the dcms secretary of state has been clear that we are looking again at the business case for the sale of Channel 4.

We will announce more on our plans in due course.

We should say though no one is contesting letter is indeed a letter.

That's been sent to the prime minister and Stephen Chris stay with us that spring in Benjamin Cohen the CEO of pink news Benjamin to talk about advertising a whole range of issues.

Is your business in a minute, but you used to work at Channel 4 u b tech correspondent on Channel 4 news, so no doubt you've been following this one so I have the word task wash reporting on Channel 4 which I have been Dead on Channel 4 in years of doing it from an outside perspective inside of a very strange and my my perspective on this Stephen just telling Channel 4 didn't really make business sense and so is interesting that even that statement you were saying that examine the business case for what the previous previous government was planning to do it wasn't going to raise that much money and say Channel 4 is a great institution a really important institution but actually as a commercial entity if it was not doing what it does now.

I was sold to a whoever private business is not really going to be for that much money and it wouldn't make it will tangible difference to.

Some of the things that Nadine dorries has been treating just don't really make sense and I reminded the when she went on it's ironic that the story was broken on global podcast the newsagents Nadine dorries went on LBC when she was first trying to pitch to sell Channel 4 and she claimed that Channel 5 has successfully privatised in the past because it was a private company and I think that really reflect how well she understood the media ecosystem that she was trying to really disrupt your not convinced.

She evidently years because she's been treating about it today along with the brother policy.

She feels the the current government should be pursuing our idea was to sell channel forward to reinvest that she said and different parts of the country to reinvigorate the creative Industries and scepticism about this plan doesn't look like it will happen will see what the outcome from gcms is but Chris Curtis from broadcast if it's not this then does it just mean Channel 4 continuous or does this mean?

Going into another period where there are question marks about what to do.

If it's really interesting the letter talks about fresh a package of measures to help Channel 4 sustainability point of view and it's mentioned Devolution levelling up ready meals around 300 staff outside of London this suggests that the broadcast as agreed to double that to get to 600 that effect on you mean two-thirds of its staff at outside of that is an important cultural and business sort of change for as an organisation and the other thing when I get into granular is that the government appears to be opening to in-house production at Channel 4 which will be a Thorn in contentious issue, but one which sea full now need to grapple with the extent to which

Get into in-house production without alienating.

It's called course supply base one of its core supply base Stephen Lambert from Studio Lambert would you be worried if Channel 4 started making its own shows not pregnant but commission by Omission system that was told I had to take those I mean the BBC and ITV broadcasters by shows and and sometimes they have a choice between choosing between the in-house play BBC studios in the case of the BBC or an independent and the people that make those decisions that these days are completely free disabled tween the two of them so long as it was operating in that basis.

I wouldn't have a big problem about it.

It is it is it would only be of Channel 4 with told you have to buy these programs and that's always a mistake when you have in-house production.

Cater to the people that buy the shows at the moment this remains an idea.

That's in a letter that's been leaked when I have to see what policies the government settles on at Chris Curtis from broadcast.

Thank you very much indeed for you to talk about that but Steven you're gonna stay with us because we have to talk about the traitors.

It's been the 6th ordinary success for the BBC millions watched.

It's been very heavily watch on iPlayer as well the word of this program.

Got around it's tell me if I'm getting this wrong was essentially a murder mystery game in which regular people take part in which we watch and there are three is amongst the group which we know about is the viewer but the others taking part in this castles the game plays out.

Don't did you know as soon as you read about this that we saw her at this was going to be this kind of success.

This is a format that was created in Holland based company that the cousin of hours.

It's a group of companies called all3media, and it was a Dutch company that came up with this idea and it was a great success in Holland so when you never shows worked in one territory.

It means it's a good chance it will work elsewhere but still use it difficult to launch any new show and it was a big animal for BBC One to go into the big way on the show me all the 12 episode straight onto BBC One and play them it was partly affected by the World Cup schedule link to play the three nights a week over 4 weeks which is very bold the BBC one day.

I can't recall them so prominent in the way in which they put out we didn't know how well it was going to do it's it only really wants it starts airing that you know where it's catching catching fire.

The big pinch of salt water is a good way of giving you a handle on how people reacting you're getting thousands of very very positive every minute.

You know that your viewers viewers are engaging with the so so useful way of understanding.

How people are responding and it's usually assume of increasing the profile of the program but when you're making a program that this are you also thinking about clips that will work on social media is that part of the calculation as you develop format that you do that later when you've made the program in this case and you you got the time to find those clips that you will service to the social media as I understand.

I know there are a number of differences between the Dutch and the UK version but maybe the biggest differences in the Netherlands it was celebrities in the person you're making for the US it celebrities but in the

Wasn't tell us about that decision and how you went about casting it because I've been reading it took awhile.

We decided along with the BBC BBC who's in charge about the decision as to whether or not to have a celebrity's or to have the trick or civilians celebrities a cost because of BBC and wanted to show to appeal to a young audience and the conventional Wisdom is that so many young shows audience have to have people in the things.

I love about the Tracy's a wide range of people and light characters the older end of the spectrum we make.

What's the channel phone again? That's a very young appearing show and again it has a very wide range of Ages in the car.

So this idea that if you want to get a young audience you have to have young cast isn't actually true and one other dimension of this that I'm interested to know about is intellectual property because as you are needed to it was developed in one form in the Netherlands adapted it for the UK's adapted it again for the US so how much of the IP does studio Lambert own and what happens when and I'm sure it is happening right now broadcasters around the world look at what's happened in the UK and start knocking on your door and saying we'd like to do this all those two parts of the value of a show like this.

There is lots of all the format which is the idea of that how you make the show and then there's the tape because in this case it was a Dutch format.

They are the people that own the format and will benefit from.

Sales around the world every time in episode is made anywhere in the world a part of the budget is paid to the former owners but the most valuable tape tends to be the British and American table get sold or around the world and obviously is the makers of that tape.

We will We Will participating in the value of that well congratulations on on such a success.

I assume a second series has been on the BBC or will be shortly making the right noises alright.

Thanks for joining the movie shall we appreciate it Steven thanks for your time.

That's Stephen Lambert see you on studio Lambert of pink news at were also joined by Dino Myers lamptey.

You set up his own advertising agency the barber shop and buy Sophie Lewis strategy officer from M&C Saatchi and we asked the three of you to join us on the media show because the Christmas period is also crucial as always crucial in understanding media consumption.

Particularly advertising consumption what's working? What's not working what formats people respond to format of potentially now going out of date.

So thanks for the three of you for coming on to help us with this and that start with you, so be what trends have you observed within the adverts you making the demands from your clients in the last few months well, it's a difficult time so up to Christmas is traditionally when a vast majority of our plants make considerable amounts of their revenue certainly the retailers rely on that time but obviously it was approached with some degree of caution for lots of reasons.

Obviously consumers have been struggling and prices have been rising so it was one I think to call in terms of how people advertise in terms of what was in advertising.

I think we saw degree actually of caution in relay.

For the run up to Christmas and advertisers trying to take an approach, which wouldn't be seen as encouraging overspending and consumers need to be kind of profit and getting into debt so we saw you know some nice entertainment and some approaches which took I guess kind of issues and ideas to that retailers like John Lewis thinking about foster care for example ASDA featuring going entertainment using the film but I think it was a hard periods cool and whilst I understand things like TV TV still there it was obviously slowing in the second half of the year and we would just been talking about the traders as you have heard and has a quote from Mark Gatiss the actor and screenwriter.

You said the traitors gave us proof that linear television is not dead.

Do you know if you agree with that you can you learn things from the success of certain TV formats in informing our advertising will I won't perform I mean absolutely I think that is definitely here to stay and I think just before Christmas we still quite good test with the lights on Netflix and Disney class in a turn towards the old school methods to attract income.

You know looking at models as well to keep their model sustainable of course TV to Channel flooring in the BBC there competing with his global content brands and we've got a clue people at tiktok in that unit consumption particularly, my period has only grown as people of multitasking more and more stayed at home a lot more and consumes a lot more content as well so for advertisers.

There are so many places to eat people but it's really important to think about where is grabbing the attention more so than anywhere else and I think TV in terms of how is consumed the platform and the big screen is such is still.

Converter of attention in making people recall the adverts which is a really important thing as well and importantly act upon what they see as well.

What about you bend when you're you're a publisher your business park press on advertising.

Can you see different demands from both your reader's your consumers, but also the people who are buying your ad space.

We are we are maybe the song publishers.

They're based hear the majority of our audiences in the us, so we really exposed the US add marker and us audience of changes.

We were seeing different sorts of impacts both in the US and the UK during Q4 of last year.

What's the difference of mistress until one of my team is pointing out why November was in packs if there was the mid term electrolytes and that actually impact the distribution of some of the content was motorbike on most of our

Is reaching us through social media platforms in down and some of the news distribution because they were worried about fake news and things like that does changes in the way the advertisers spend in the US when there's mid-term elections because of political office sizing running with enemies is not as much space for some of the others that camper shop prices, but then when that demands goes away the prices go down and the last election cycle that we had was in the US as clearly during covid.

What is this was the first time there was an election? When was the presidential election so this is the first election cycle where we're in this new world.

Where some of the advertising spend that had sort of gone away.

When was working from home and staying at home during lockdown and has come back and that has had an impact on businesses like mine, but anyway.

Impacting on what we're doing what we definitely saw during this period was it we emphasise why we wanted to invest in our platform and website users on there because I'm number one platform for distribution is Snapchat and number two is Twitter when we we had traditionally so the Love video advertising and same period must take over Twitter started to change some of the rules for you.

It's interesting because we are seeing the some advertising campaigns that were booked have been caused by agencies and brands because they are uncomfortable with some of the content that is now appearing and some of the people who had been banned who are coming back, but we're having to do a pink 100 million people each month across all the different part forms were having to try and convince some of the other sizes you were working with us on Twitter to reinvest that advertising spend either on other sites.

Films are on our hands and operated platforms like our apps evolution in the experience of different social media platforms.

Do you know you've been emphasising that there are some classic add the clients very much want Sophie in three of you.

Let me ask you about the prime energy drink which became this phenomenon selling out in Audi promoted by number of influences include ksi.and with absolutely no classic advertising behind it as well.

I guess I'll ask the same question as I did at the traitors.

Which is how much Sophie can you learn as an ad agency from product like that landing in the market.

I was young man in McDonald's the other day drink it with their proudly brought bottles of time.

It's a difficult one.

I mean.

I think they have been conversations about whether influence influence as a dead and I think the traditional influence model is certainly seeing some.

I don't know how powerful influence and before you make your point though.

Let me understand the traditional influence of model would be a brand pays an influencer to endorse their on social media and that is a brand and an algorithm that works very differently to those that we've seen before and that means that people are able to build reach from any situation rather than having to sort of beer Kardashian or be whatever and so I think that does place influence in a slightly different realm.

I think it turns into something slightly different so hard to say quite my prime has.

Incredible thing but I do think that the model of influence in advertising and communication is changing so a number of different elements of the advertising experience from Benjamin point of view as a publisher from yours and from the agency side of things in terms of where you place adverts.

I don't like to ask about the creative process Sophia know you were telling one of my colleagues that one of the things that made you want to work in advertising was the famous tango blackcurrant out of quite a few years ago which for those of you listening if you didn't see it saw someone in theory from tango challenging a French exchange into a fight on the Cliffs of Dover I watched it earlier.

It's quite a thing but do you think the creative creatively because of the pressure some social media the risks for brands of getting it wrong there, then.

It's possible to be as creative as risk-taking as Babs you could have been 1520 years ago.

I really hope so is my answer I feel like.

Is going to be icy often and I worked through the last recession.

I think often in situations actually provide us with a sort of creative Renaissance I think difficult situations often Force people to think more creatively.

I think that's perhaps blackcurrant tango might not make it in the in the current context but I do think that the idea of it is very different actually to what we were talking about with the traitors in about understanding ideas.

I always look for ideas and like ideas that make me feel a little bit scared usually because they're things that I hopefully haven't seen with your clients to bransfield as enthusiastic as being scared that it has been a time for caution certainly over the last year understandably so but I think that the brands dear mentioned earlier.

People have to notice you in the first place if they don't notice you.

They don't really care about brands and they don't really care about advertising and so you'll have to get their attention if you don't get them attention then everything else is immaterial biggest period of years now.

She Christmas is pride lgbtq plus Focus then all the brands are trying to reach and talk to you the lgbtq community and we're having to do is to work with agencies and brands to help them think about something original they can help cut through but also try and convince them not to do the same thing as everyone else and at the same time as everyone else is an interesting interesting as a business as a content business while actively working with advertisers on the kind of ads that they produce that you.

Not all publishers Woodward work in that way because we also help them produce so like a lot of publishers.

We have our own creative production team who will produce branded content working with influencers, even though we might not always want to work with influencers.

Cos it's automatic Sheringham Avenue we would we would work with them to Craig's on it bespoke because it gets much higher engagement rates are much higher returns to the Advertiser and it was a really important when because we are it was speaking to it was speaking to this particular community audience isn't necessarily a really does believe in the emission of pink needs to inform inspire changing empower people to be themselves.

We have to help advertise make sure that the creatives that they are putting on are appropriate and it won't appear x f when they're starting to be looked at by millions of people say your business is focused around pride month as well as around Christmas but Dino

When you're dealing with businesses which have just been through this big push at Christmas is this a long period when's the next week for the advertising industry experience.

It was a load of brands that the hard way.

I've been forced to advertise and I think a lot of people are realising that advertising is the secret power of the Secret Weapon really so I don't think they can should be as strong.

I think the people have to regenerate interest in the economy and get some spending happening and I think of the lipstick effect we know the people will be looking for little treats to come up like in Brighton up there days and they were so I think that you know most advertised are going to start going pretty soon again.

January is always a bit of a Down period but we're going to see an upturned presume the lipstick effect there's a something I've not heard before thank you very much indeed dino very very interesting dino Myers lanti from the barbershop soapy Lewis from M&C Saatchi Benjamin Cohen from news earlier on we heard from Stephen Lambert from Studio

and from Chris Curtis from broadcast magazine you can hear all editions of the media show on the BBC Sounds app many thanks for listening many thanks.

I guess we'll speak to you next week.