Read this: Does the media report climate protests responsibly?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 how should Janice cover climb the climate conference cop27 ends this week, but you might have been more about the activist who threw boil on a Gustav Klimt painting in Vienna yesterday or the protesters you brought the M25 to the last week in an era of apparently increasing Direct action, what's the medias role and by giving the latest pub stomp publicity, is it Fanning the flames and join by Cameron Ford is a carpenter and next person for insulate Britain and Rich walgate a documentary maker who was arrested last week while filming ever just stop oil protest also here and blow who left his top job at condenast and the Oxford climate journalism network Danny sure they used to be a BBC Home affairs correspondent and is now free to see what he really thinks and Fiona Harvey the Guardian environment correspondent who is

Has just left to get on the phone to us.

Thank you for coming on what what's the mood modulus have your storage been cutting through to the front pages this week? I'm here actually last week.

We had to say what's happening now.

It's a lot of men in suits in a windowless rooms.

Just boring over pages of text to say I don't want to do about a semicolon here and there is just a Grind what does it mean for whether the stories are getting out then well website everyday so I think for my

Ok, we'll come back to you in a bit Fiona but let's talk first about what happened last week, but the address of three members of the media alongside protesters by Hertfordshire police on the M25 M3 relate released without charge yesterday the National Union of journalists join civil rights groups to call for an independent review into policing powers and a public order bill which is currently going through which felgate you were one of those arrested from the media.

What's the latest the police apologise to you? I'm still waiting for an apology ok? You are you expecting one just to recap so you were filming on the footbridge opposite the country where the protesters were what happened.

Why were you arrested? Yes, I was filming on in a public space away from where the process is actually happening on the country and as soon as police arrived and close the road, then I heard them point up to the bridge.

Detainment directed to me and another press photographer that was there and straight away.

They came up to us and just put handcuffs on us no interaction or discussion about what we will ring.

They weren't interested in seeing press cards straight away trying to get us out of the area and stop what we're doing and how long will you help about 30 hours.

Ok, then released without charge as I said, how did you know to be on that Footbridge at the time and we had you been tipped off with this process was going to happen Janice have sources.

Otherwise we won't know about these protests and just up foil publicly said that they would be protesting on the M25 been quite a big Road to Nowhere

yeah, so I mean for the documentary film.

I've been making a it's following the chest of Boyle campaign as part of that is building a building Trust with sauces to be able to know when to be there, so I don't miss these things were you surprised by the interested.

I mean did it feel on you.

This is the second time I've been arrested while filming.

I just thought well protest so frankly I wasn't surprised at all ok.

It feels like

Where there's so much media attention around the just a boil protests and the new perhaps this trend of arresting journalist at the moment.

It feels like this is kind of almost a tactic by the police to make the process less effective with her the Hertfordshire police and crime commissioner saying that criticising the media for kind of giving the process oxygen or any form of protest.

They were taking a slightly different view from that, but just I would like to bring in Danny short this point and you spent years covering protests and the police for The Beauty what's your take all of this morning Danny can I hear you? We've lost Richard if I can come back to you, then I mean you said as you said you are part of.

documentary as a result the following very closely do you think the lines are a bit more blurred in that kind of journalism rather than in other more traditional types of journalism Pat's web documentary filmmaking and especially this kind of style of long-term following the the people involved and kind of getting deeper into the storage is it is essential to to not only report on the seeing but kind of build trust again and gain access to be able to help such a close story and I think it's

It's sister an essential part of a kind of wider ecosystem of reporting.

It's only possible to really authentically portray.

What is protesters and why they're doing and how they doing it with filmmakers who are using this kind of medium of spending time with them getting closer to the what they're doing.

Is it difficult then? Do you think the police to tell the difference between a protester and a journalist these days when everybody has cameras everybody has phones.

It's difficult to tell you not to do is ask which they didn't do you say is that right ok? Well, you know someone who takes part in this kind of protest can't afford it from insulate Britain let me just play you a clip.

You might have already heard of him on talk radio with Mike Graham from last year.

I'm a carpenter Carpenter so how safe is that for the climate?

Well, I work with timber which is a much more sustainable material rather than concrete I also.

It's a sustainable building practise, how is it sustainable if you're killing trees because it's regenerative you can grow trees what you can't you can grow all sorts of concrete you can.

See Cameron area that is the interview but the progress I got many millions of views on social media and continues to Cameron when you hear that again.

What do you think shame that we have to change your search idiocy and Amelia spaces.

I mean it really is he still has a platform really is that how you say I mean, do you think despite? You know the way the end of the went? Would that be counted as ultimately a successful Media appearance for you and what's your rationale when you decide to do an interview with a mean of the back of that.

I think a lot of people realised what we're up against he clearly had his agenda for how he wanted the interview to go drilling into what I do for a living.

I can only imagine the sort of jobs or not jobs that he was hoping that I had that he could pick me apart for so it did Shine a light on.

And I would just say whatever they want to to undermine us in the littlest and not really open up an actual conversation about you know why we do such such thing.

I mean there's a sense that some people.

Are you looking for a reaction and perhaps seem to make good television I mean in September Piers Morgan ate a Big Mac in the Vegan activist.

I've watched you on GB news.

Get drawn into shouting matches with Laurence fox.

I mean if we if we can take the Guardian interviews and on page one of the Guardian we're not going to really we're not going it's not going to cut it we're not going to change public perception on the most existential crisis that I've ever faced as a civilisation like it is mega and if we just allow these shop right wing broadcasters to

Just sort of the little the crisis which they do in every single way that they can win all of their chosen all at with all the presenters.

You know someone just atrocious and clearly clearly paid for by the fossil fuel industry, some of them are also putting a point which is by doing his protest there were people who missed the father's funeral is didn't get to the counsellor appointment.

Yeah, they are putting the side of you know many people in Britain you feel yes, they may be in favour of sorting out the climate, but they also thinking that this isn't the right way to do it sure I mean that is the only side that I've ever heard them want to talk about when I've got into the spaces.

I mean that we can talk about the maybe a minute and we can and if they want to drill down.

We can explain why we're doing why were using these Tactics you know that the concept of the radical Frank and they actually by being disruptive and more visible light.

We actually brought a movements that want the same thing you know the movements like Greenpeace all the Green Party gain popularity and so there is a lot of social science behind why we do what we do, but we never really get to talk about that and your clit went viral lots of clips around this do go viral does it do you get a sense? I don't know you conscious when you go onto these programs that do you get the you get a feeling that actually the aim is to wind you up so that you they will get me to go via is that is that how you perceive it and I think I'm a bit of an optimist.

I think it's time.

I just hope that actually we'll have a proper conversation.

I under there is there is potential for that in all of these I mean they are human.

They have got deep down.

They've got fear to about about our planet changing in with the climate so rapidly and

Have children and loved ones and I know but even though their whole angle is to anger there also human beings who have got complex emotions around this really tricky situation.

We find ourselves in and and genuinely I want to open that up with them well.

I've got welcome in the studio here as I said cancel Radio interview went viral and now that clip has an advert on it which presumably makes money is the current Vogue Wolfgang for direct action actually good good business for the media industry.

Media likes events and that is a big Challenge for all the climate journalism is ring when you ask a typical news desk editor who decides what to put on here or what to put on still printing you say what are the filters? How do you pick this up again? Not this initially? They will just brush you off and see what it is to be relevant, but then when you really have time with them.

They say what it needs to be new it needs to be close to where my audience lives and ideally if there is an event or a person angle.

It's easier to get it on the New Zealand needs to be simple so these kinds of protest delivering event and you'll see the same and how the media the news media covers Cup currently especially as Fiona said earlier now where in the nitty-gritty of week 2 and disgusting formulations are used in increasing number of stories about the food at cardboard sewage spills any little event only do not look at something that is just much more complex so I think news me.

Channel is better and coming events then then covering processes and so eventsource tons rs-rr easier to cover for journalists, especially if they have very little actual dad.

Is you let me bring you in here.

I think I'm hoping we can hear you now.

You know obviously we were talking earlier about it whether the lines are blurred between journalism and activism these days, but it is the specific one if a journalist has knowledge of a protest which is likely to be against the law what obligations do they have to call the police? Do you think obligation to call the police? You know they are there to report what's going on and if they get a tip-off which means that there in position.

You know ahead of the protesters ahead of the event then good luck to them.

That's you know that so jealous using their sources well and being ahead of the game.

I think what happened to the three journalist being arrested.

Please frankly disgrace and you know it was it was a bad day for police in when that happened.

We've seen it happen occasionally at process before for free journey to be arrested by one police force does indicate that something you know what's going wrong systemic Lee can you see how it happens? Can you see how in the days used to be the case that journalists all broadcast journalist carry cameras and nobody else did but obviously know everybody's got a camera, but then you may well have heard which was talking about me didn't even ask they would be jealous of that lovely Prescott sort of thing it just doesn't make sense at all.

It's so easy amiberry.

Is this system by which journalist news gatherers carry a UK press card.

It's accredited it has the national police chiefs council on the back of it actually says that it's that is recognised by then.

Hotline number to call to verify the the press card, it's got that you know his you know his mind.

He's my prescod right here.

It says the national police chiefs Council recognise the holder of his car as a bona fide in news gatherer.

It's got the number to call if you need verification and it's got security features all I needed to do was to ask those people you know do you have a press card and they're at least you can solve the situation.

No need to rest and take them into custody whatever and that's often what happens.

You know during this going around reporting on things coming into contact with please and there are still show their prescod so this to me suggests that some kind of stupid gone out from Hertfordshire police or a directive to kind of get tough on the protesters have been misinterpreted by someone in the chain of command and they just didn't care what anyone said.

Just scooping people up and then holding and custody 24-hours which is this frankly adding insult to injury and his Chiefs Council I do have to reflect the position because obviously they said that Germans have to report any form of protest and that is very regrettable that journalist will caught up in it all protest.

They say come with an enormous amount of pressure for policing but I shouldn't be prevented from legitimately College of policing guidelines on this absolutely black and white reporting or film from the scene of an incident is part of the medias role, and they should not be prevented from doing so from a public.

Please have no power moral responsibility to stop the filming or photographing of incidents or police personnel, so it's there in black and white you know and the number of senior police officers of come out and did the right of the press to report.

I'm so this was if you like a kind of erode action I think but it is very worrying.

It's right.

There's an enquiry into it ok.

I'm feeling just bring him from Cork from.

YouView on the protesters does it help or hinder your journalism?

Protesters a really important to me here we are running and we had a small protest a few days ago.

Not really seeing the civil society activism that we would expect to see in a free society because of this is the jails here when you're see where it it's almost non-existent.

Will can you nothing that I remember the last year and advising the you enough trouble see that the United Nations climate change device.

Anthony Joshua oceans in Glasgow are several indigo shade as we really happy there are protesters outside it really helps build the pressure.

We need inside the venue for negotiation and an hour for journalism enactivism of Corsa two very different things but the journalist should never forget that we owe all of our rights the freedom of speech the right to vote the right to gather at the price to speak it.

We order to activist earlier Generations ok will what is responsible journalism when it comes to the climate I guess that's a big question you but should we see climate change as a sub like no other to be covered by journalist Fiona I wondered what your views are from cop27.

Can you be in partial on the subject of climate change? Do you think

Indian party, but I think you have to present the facts and the fact that where is the living on planet will be seeing changes to the climate for a catastrophic and irreversible supporting the fact that we have to do that are the lines though blurring between jealous and campaigning you don't think of the Guardian front page yesterday to organise a global climate leader with newspapers and media outlets around the world co Publishing and editorial calling for urgent action on the climate crisis articles on the front page.

That doesn't affect your views on campaign in journalism.

Do you see yourself as a campaign in journalist? I don't really see the situation wherein as a campaign.

It's not it's not really a causes for deaf forever for everyone so I think it's it's not really a situation where it's so valid to take sides.

We need to get realistic about what's happening ok and we'll come blow which will get doesn't see his campaign in journalism.

Clearly it can be called that does it work who does it convinced does it? I'm fine.

You know objective reporting if you like on this subject is really difficult because there is also a form of activism in the

Omission of simply not covering a topic and you could argue that a large part of the news industry is simply not covering climate change sufficiently well.

That's intentionally or not recently it it looks conscious because it's really hard to look away now.

I'll personally I think that journalism should stay away from activism.

There's always too short on short-term impact of activism because you leverage the brand in all the trusted you lose friend has build offnova decades and longer but in the long-term climate change is not going away.

We will still wrestling within 1500 really important now that news brands.

Do not take sides other than to force the issue into the public sphere you think about this version of the Guardian is a leader but it's on the front page.

Do you see that as activism you do that Fiona

Am I right am a journalist and activist? I don't like m white mirrors and all the facts of what's in front of me and over your time.

Do you think the language has changed and I think the Guardian you taken the decision to use the term climate crisis for example if that's an Evolution in language 18 years ago when writing a change in time he resigns from gentle it sounds like something what we know is that when the weather goes to extremes.

Is nothing gentle we're going to see new extreme already seen them and Pakistan flights in Africa so we need to reflect that in our language.

You need to reflect with the scientist for telling us so we stopped talking crisis emergency breakdown and we talked about global heating or reflect what's really going on Danny show the BBC no longer balances question of whether man-made climate change is happening, but it's still very careful with its language used.

Yes, I'm sure it is and quite rightly so because it's got a very different position.

I think from some other media outlets it has to be very careful, but you know it's around the evidence and it's around trying to be true to the evidence but also at the same time reflecting different different shades of opinion, but not giving much weight to opinions that perhaps you know outliers and a really disorder frankly not worth not worth the paper.

They are written on your assessment is Halfords open the heatwave this summer was reported by the media.

I feel at the BBC where encourage not to for example use pictures of people eating ice creams when it's A40 yeah, there is an urgent issue around the illustration where the journalism has become better in terms of really warning people of the dangers, but then often you see this really well written pieces and then they released rate at which.

What to do with work clothes in newsrooms who chooses the picture do an article who writes the headline inside a straight of dogs playing in fountains interaction people on the beach that belittled the actual danger.

I just wanted to make one more point where I think this question whether climate change human mate.

That's a bit last year's or last decades discussion and it's almost of a sign of false courage still make a point of that.

That's kind of done.

What weather denials.

It's now or the ignorance when Media plays a hugely important role while Media can do it on its own is to really help the public understand that from the difference between global heating a warming by 1.5% degrees vs.

2 degrees or more currently were headed for more that the consequences are so so real and Dad I don't see sufficiently covered and there's also a lack of proportion missing it to me this looks like watching a football game with no goal posts.

The remaining carbon budget, this is how much more we can put into the atmosphere and this is how much time we have left and against Edd for instance we could measure the entire business journalism is an access and they're only going to do that.

How do your false for instance it just like the east-west conflict was an organising theme from match of our coverage in the 70s and 80s climate change is one of our new organising axis forever depart culture to politics of 1.5 degrees for example or climate change not climate change video call.

You don't call it that but as you know something that people that looks them in.

I think you told that because if you were engaged by the story of floods are covering of Pakistan and humanitarian well, what Really Counts is trying to explain to people some of these very technical x 1.5 degrees is 1.5 degree temperature increase was sitting in a room you probably wouldn't even notice it but when you translate that into the whole planet actually huge difference and the way I try to explain.

And that's the kind of different degrees can make I met we could keep talking about this and know that well, but I'm afraid we can't now because that is all we got time for thank you so much to Fiona Harvey from the Guardian Wolfgang Brown managing partner at the global climate the Brunswick Group Danny Shaw former BBC Home affairs correspondent.

He now works for criminal justice experts Crest advisory, also thanks the Cameron Ford a spokesperson for insulate Britain and Rich felgate the door of finite the climate of change that's all this week.

Thank you so much for listening.