Read this: The Race for the Tory Crown

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 as in choosing the next conservative leader, how do you cover an election campaign that most of the public doesn't have a saying and what my all of this mean for Channel 4 plant privatisation next week's Media which would have included details of the sale has now been delayed my guests today Fraser Nelson editor of The Spectator a publication at the heart of the Conservative establishment famously Boris Johnson was an editor of magazine kemi badenoch.

Also work there for a bit Fraser hello.

Will you be an internal leader at 5 apparently Jeremy Hunt please stay in Boots the big news today at courses that are you go forward to Penny Mordaunt way ahead of all of arrivals the betting markets and move behind another she's the odds on favourites.

When will The Spectator come out for her? Do you think I'm not the only recording make a decision but probably won't break it will make it alright at the end.

We don't really shouldn't have favourites.

We know you know what you believe women are doing for the basic liberal principles for the best part of 200 years and work out which candidates will be the same as principles, but right now.

We're not leaving the Pom Poms for her for my former colleagues can also with me on the media show Paul Mason columnist for the New Statesman in the new European and very influential voice on the left Rosamund Urwin Media editor Sunday Times hardeep matharu editor of byline Times newspaper founded in 2018 aims to cover the story the rest of the press miss and Chris Hopkins director of politics and me.

Search at comres savanta welcome to you all.

Thank you for coming on let's start by unpicking the candidates Media strategies.

There are 8 contenders left right now though as friends with boating happening this afternoon by the end of the program at number will have been whittled down Rosamund what are they trying to do you think when it comes to the media? They want us to put forward their agenda.

They want us to be sympathetic to the issues that they raise and they want us to promote their calls and make them seem like the most credible leader and what we've seen is actually quite a lot of conversation around apart from the cost of living crisis.

I thought it's really interesting penny Mordaunt this morning and the times was Charles care.

Which is not something that actually I thought that was a clever thing because she was reaching beyond a misery the electric here is obviously Tory party members.

That's not an issue.

Is particularly high on their list, but it certainly is for the rest of the country particularly parents and parents of young children like me and I thought that's really interesting that she's reaching beyond that because of course Lexus IS200 people here.

She's my understanding it was trying to get key parts of the Conservative press on side all they're trying to speak directly to the member that sounds like she's actually trying to speak to the wider population as well, but but is that one it's about this point speaking to the conservative press getting them on side and getting to the members through them absolutely I mean that that's primary primary and same here.

Isn't it? Because I mean this is these two votes the rest of us sort of spectators to at all, but I do think it's getting a bit broader and I thought that was the sort of move away for everyone else to say which is why I thought is interesting that isn't top of the list the 2020 party members so I thought that was a move.

Obviously, she's pulling very very well, so it was suggested to me a strategy that looks beyond that and said you know I am the credible candidate to be Prime Minister not just when the Tory leadership.

I think he killed her campaign video in an article in the last day or two now.

They will had obviously formal in person launches, but some of them are chosen to do campaign video with she had that flick video mistrust chosen article in the Telegraph as did some mothers your sense of how they launching will funny thing is he's just speak campaigns that this is a national campaign the pictures of the average person, but they're not and that's why the videos are so bad and penny more than the video look like something Little Britain out take it was a bingo of Tori Kelly so you playing the Elgar the signs of the White Cliffs of Dover no of course you have to do is to persuade a small number of Tory MPs that.

Better off with her as prime minister and she's need a video to do that.

We need to go through the motions.

What's happening here is a tiny clique of MPs for deciding the next prime minister's going to be sitting normally take my router's so they have to go through give it the Democratic veneer and that's why not just any more videos but all the videos are pretty bad really job you used to campaign videos for the TUC what's the what's your take on these videos, please.

Don't let politicians have any any editorial control we let them say what it wants to say when it was host actually Fraser not too and it's it's probably a subliminal subliminally inspire the morning video by a video on the day today about 20 years ago.

What they doing right now? I think the game where it is can the Conservatives right keep Rishi Sunak the last two? I don't think they can but that is the game being played in the attempt to do that the media strategies are highly contrasted has gone straight to the people that that that video the launch reminded me of a David Cameron launch early and Cameron's career, so I'm a man who the others I think they're not just leaving at MPs let's remember on the media it show where does the leader of the Conservative press 3:00 on social media matter in terms of the journalists and the general penumbra politics people comment Alastair Campbell

If you don't be there just to say as you mentioned Alastair Campbell I think it might be a good moment to bring in a clip from Alastair Campbell because that question I posted the top you know how much is the British press have in this his Foreman former spin doctor was speaking on BBC Question Time recently and he said exception to a fellow panelists Telegraph Tim Stanley have a listen to these things can only get better part of the problem the British media are part of the problem.

They deliver them they sucked up to him.

He to Johnson's describe the Telegraph real boss and they are part of the problem and next think should happen our political culture and I'm Media culture have to change otherwise it will happen again Fraser is he looking at you there.

Can you edit a magazine at the centre of the political life is only 200000 photos here.

What was the funny thing is Johnson for 49 people voted for him something else to Campbell can't blame the press, but there is also a general election when it comes to Victoria by speaking thing at the price of got a far less influence then politicians think we do agree with you or they might disagree with you.

If you like.

He's a journalist.

You might have something that I find interesting and it's really change people's minds that is what people think otherwise and that's why journalist always get approached during election times people want to go to coverage.

Of course.

They did Chris and sits there and controls the opinions everybody who fixes up.

We are both my people to find it interesting if it's so funny.

It's interesting this done by us and the Tory MPs are far more things going Millie in the job promises etc.

Horse-trading done woohoo to use a back during these times that there is somebody born.

How many cans campaign bombs that will be visible in the press the by and large? I'm not quite sure how influential we all are we not be slightly more influential than 24 team members in The Spectators got a reasonable penetration of that particular cohort the even then they will if there's two candidates and they got a clear preference and not really quite sure there any publication not even spectator would change somebody's mind one way or the other makes there is a fair one in the sense that I think even when he was a journalist visiting Boris Johnson in the offices of The Spectator in history to interview him at the end of the interview because I'm short you played it.

It was it was all was a rule breaker nothing depressing but since we all looking at people called you.

I mean there's more.

People who composed the Blue City they've been outside of high politics.

I think there is a merit in just resetting the rules.

I would like to see all of us in the interest in the national interest of the interest of good governance every single one of his decent probing fact-based interviews some of them will never get the chance after 5 tonight, but but I would like to see all of them through that ok hardeep matharu as a turd byline times say you're publication was setup to try and counter what your founder say was the outside influence of the right-wing press.

What's your take on all of this? Yeah? I mean the question.

I look at all these leadership contest coverages.

Who's this coverage ultimately for you know it is it genuinely for the public so that they can be informed in a rigorous way about

Next to the Conservative Party might be in what's on the policies may be that they implement or is it actually the political Media class so people like us other Politician's other genders and newspapers in which a lot of public and political discourse is taking place so one of things.

I find interesting is I mean there been a fair few soundbites.

I'm already in the leadership race from a range of the candidates with heard about that of free speech in universities.

We've heard about the BBC licence fee with headlines about the transition and yet Spalding consistently shows that the British public's priorities are very different to those issues who the care about the NHS they care about the economy in the cost of living crisis and care about the war in Ukraine you know that this notion of you know.

It's not really a priority of the public.

I think something.

Interesting to note is the extent to which in this leadership contest already how you know how many views of the strands have come up and the reason that's relevant is because so-called cultural which the Johnson government has propagated is largely sort of the setting for that largely has been the medium so that you know news websites commentators on social media newspapers and you know I mean no that environment does help to shape the political discourse, but then affects policies think we saw that in a number of areas.

Not these brexit.

So I think it's really interesting that it's not just the politicians wanting publicity and wanting to get some the big newspaper to hold the influence on side is also what the politicians can do for the newspapers to satisfy some of the things that they're interested in then going up there wasn't what's your take on that.

One thing we haven't talked about is that he would have said that the pressure is very much on the way back.

When was the Sunday Times story obviously mirror papers of exposing partygate but I do think a lot of the coverage.

He's had has been intense another example by the coverage of the beginning of the government's Handling of lockdown.

You know we had a massive in site investigation into US of all the mistakes made you think it's a little disingenuous, so we have been saying well actually the media has given him Nez easyride as prime minister.

I think there's elements were that certainly been true, but it's not universal and outstanding journalism done there by particularly newspapers in in exposing older the wrong doing that has gone on holiday.

I was looking at your website earlier and

Hope you got a section headline the crisis in British journalism and you refer to a pundit ocracy in the UK that doesn't hold power to account.

What is a pundit ocracy well.

It's range of people who are commentators who have an impact on public discourse through discussions about cultural issues that are about 200 or 300 people that talk about people and Fraser know byline times was set up with the aim to invest investigate the crisis in British journalism.

You know the media does hold a lot of power you know it's not to say that it doesn't do what's a good work.

Can I think partygate was exposed by the media by ITV news and the mirror and the repercussions of the entire Media then had to pick.

That story and it became very high profile, so absolutely it does good work, but it picks and chooses when it wants to do that partygate arguably wasn't the first Big scandal that should have had the prominence that it did under the Boris Johnson government and so it's not that we don't have great journalism.

It's just too often.

It's not on a regular basis holding power to account and I think our analysis on byline times has been happening for a while and it has no common dated in Johnson done that there has been a murder assaults between the political and the media classes you have a group of individuals who know each other professionally and socially a mutual interest who you know the holder of a power both in the media and both in politics and you know I just think that needs to be looked into more than it is for anything else and I was at the Spectators

You very kindly said yes when he clearly message you and ask for an invitation.

That was held on the day that Boris Johnson resigned, but it felt like a Who's Who of the Conservative Party and the media which might sound surprising people listening.

I'm not entirely sure it should be that surprise party is usually the tickets in Westminster it was a bit of fun on the evening and why is my cycle Kingmaker is that night the heart of the unfolding drama with your garden party full of contenders shoes and then I'm afraid to say I don't know how to make any kings over there if I did not question the contest will be going to the way that it was and it is certainly true in spectator.

Where are you where a magazine that specialises in politics? We're running magazine.

I think we do it this particular suppose.

It's better than anybody else.

Play some of the best connect to people and that's partly why do people pick up The Spectator to find out what's happening inside the British government so it away it's our job to know these people very well.

Tell her she just thinking I'm a difference between what they're saying behind closed doors what they're saying of France and so that's just it always has been part of this way to does this isn't a left right issue.

You know you're less busy recently made it to the long left for a safe labour.

See you at the media and politics are entwined.

I don't think that's necessarily about that.

I did yes.

It was only the longest congratulations.

I think it's no accident but in a period or switch opened in 2008 and hasn't really stopped you did see people like Michael Gove Johnson himself other people on the other side of move.

When was all the parts of public Life into politics because it's the it's covered by people we might be in for an energy crisis this winter we certainly in the middle of the first war which is worse and nastya.

Everybody who thinks they can do it should have a drive however.

I think I should an invite to the party but you got to do when I was working BBC like you so that's what I was doing amazing the Observer Daily Express Independence Day remember him telling me the journalist.

You must not socialise with politicians because it becomes corrupting and that's the difference between socializing and using your rat like coming to get into a party wear.

You've got to be able to the person you just clicked glasses with you've got to be able to put them on the front page tomorrow morning for something.

They don't want and he is the problem with Johnson I'm going into detail the things that people in journalism new about Johnson that didn't come out in time at let's let's let's be frank and I think he was given a little bit of a clubbable person and it goes out of his way to make people feel like they're his friend what he was doing criticising very heavily, what does libido popular but you've got to be able to do that no, just it's just for the good of the country for the good of having good government and politicians are held to account to Campbell clip.

Do you accept that the media built up Boris Johnson at the media will also decide who comes next?

Or not know that the opposite to view the world is the people that basically stupid and with whoever the papers tell them the first of all the circulation newspapers absolutely tiny now.

I'm more people get the news from Facebook then get it from any publication nowadays and the BBC is he leaving number one Force when it comes to do people get their news from and is the other way around and publications tend to write articles people are interested in and if you people is Boris Johnson going to get bigger breasts.

It's not really within the gifts of journalists in Britain or America anywhere else so kind and democracy to force the candidates down somebody's throat if I want to see hear about them, so I guess that might be difference between the left and the right as the right time to see the power structure has been the other way around us being at the bottom and the regions being.

If you're on the left sometimes, you can't blame everything for example the way people think about immigration you blame it on the Daily Mail that's typical coming show you how it see you, but I've always thought on the Masters anybody until the publication should surely know that every day of the week at the moment bringing his Hopkins from Southampton because we want to see if there is any empirical around the influence the price actually has in his country in terms of picking election winners and what do we know Chris did Boris Johnson get the backing of some newspapers did that affect the 2019 general election result the actual research around that people will seek out journalist publications friends family agree with them rather than the other way round.

I think is very few people and who can hand on heart have no excuses.

But there are very few people think up and down the country that can hand on heart and truthfully say that they seek out alternative use to theirs to immerse themselves in alternative opinions to educate themselves and broaden Horizons it just doesn't happen.

Yeah.

I think you look back in 1992 and the claim on the from the Sun newspaper.

It was the sun wot won it mean that's been debunked frankly because people are in circulation numbers that high and they were considerably higher in 1992 than they are now so just because viewing audience for going yeah absolutely it's not there isn't influence and I think that you're when people ask you respond to our surveys and questionnaires along the lines of what is the number one issue is going to influence your boat at an election very very unlikely to say all I read that I read the newspaper articles.

I don't think people really have a grasp of what does influenced their views, what does influenced by politics, but they are going to vote along those issues.

The broadsheets and conservative members may have undue influence on the Conservatives selectorate here.

They may have a great influence on traditional conservative voters that's not to say that if Fraser order application to come out for particular candidate hear that that would end up swinging collection for them and I think frozen made the point earlier where you know it was interesting to see them listen to Penny Mordaunt make pictures of the country is not just the Conservatives electro and here because ultimately this will be the prime minister and we've just released a pole in the 11% of the country code name penny Mordaunt picture of her.

She's got a long way to go frankly in terms of name recognition of facial recognition, but maybe that's a good thing maybe it's good to start from scratch and

Remove yourself from the previous version of Rosamund you don't want to ask you about the latest on Channel 4 and the Business of government is supposedly continuing despite leadership chat Channel 4 privatisation was already signed off by the prime minister and and easy athlete that bike up the culture secretary Nadine dorries, but next week's Media bill, which would have included details of the cell has now delayed tell us more about that the Media bill is doing a lot more than just privatising Channel 4.

It's sort of in there and as part of a package but that's obviously the thing in is perhaps of most importance to the media world although I should note that most people in the champ Robert when they pulled his don't actually know the ownership model of of Channel 4.

Yeah.

I mean it's not commercially funded through advertising and so Channel 4 internally has.

Belated actually campaigned to stop itself private eyes and so has the independent television sector because obviously a huge amount so it doesn't make itself it's for a publisher model and therefore everything is made by lost things made by small independent when it comes to leadership, is it going to continue Jake kanter recording is on Monday the Rishi Sunak has been telling colleagues the Channel 4 privatisation is nothing to do with me as he put it how much difference could and you need to make you so long, but and those the key is not leader and then we could definitely since looked at again, but here's the question Rishi Sunak is seen as a sceptic around it.

Hunter spoken on it probably is but if we ended up with Liz truss.

I think there's a possibility that privatisation comes back around but there's another question for you and nothing there.

What's your take on it? It's a non essential aspect modern conservatism will the world fall in if Channel 4 remains under its current business model now.

I mean it's news.

I think is world class and does lean-to the sort of progress side of the agenda.

Did when I've worked at content doesn't mean it in a way and I don't I don't see it as an essential thing to do it brings in no money.

I'd like to see the whole broadcasting system and revitalise Republic money and private environment during the always seem to me to be like that again.

Just something to do to the wind up the left.

I don't think anyone was talking about Channel 4 privatisation The Spectator party the other things to talk about but what is your take on whether it will happen or not probably wouldn't because there is a consensus that this was the same culture worry thing that Boris Johnson has to write all the left is the online safety bill.

I'm worried about you bring in censorship of the media forever.

I give me the end of the free now.

I said that she would abolish this even worried about the implications, so I really hope they still does not go ahead and that we do not have my proximity which is the Menace which this build that is all we have time for a Stephanie subject for another day.

Thank you to all my guests Fraser Nelson spectator Rosamund Urwin from the Sunday Times Paul Mason columnist for the New Statesman in the new European

The editor of byline times and Chris Hopkins director of politics and media research at cameras, Southampton don't forget you can catch up with past editions of The Show by the BBC Sounds app the show will be back at the same time next week but for now thanks for listening good.