Read this: Spotify's $100 million problem

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hello, this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello today.

We'll talk about C3 returning as a traditional TV Channel 6 years since the BBC decided it should only be online and we'll talk about Spotify and Joe Rogan he's one of the most popular podcast is in the world, but he's called up in a row of a weather is promoting covid misinformation and whether Spotify should be funding content that risks doing that possible find out why podcasts are so crucial the company on Spotify with started out poorly streaming music won't let me introduce you to our guests our first is Elizabeth task in Silicon Valley correspondent at the Washington Post and grey tabby on the program and now I must read a an email that is just been sent in the last few minutes to all CNN staff.

We have a big us Media story happening in the

3 minutes it reads and it's from Jeff soccer who runs CNN as part of the investigation into Chris cuomo tenure at CNN Chris cuomo being a host.

I was asked about a consensual relationship with my closest colleagues someone I am more than 20-years.

I've noticed the relationship evolved in recent years.

I was required to the closet when it began, but I didn't I was wrong as a result I'm resigning today.

No Elizabeth the people listening.

You don't know Jeff circle.

This man is a big figure in US media and literally probably in the top 3/4 most powerful figures in American William that makes them in the world is also had a bit of over the years.

The head of Embassy in The Apprentice trump, show was you know what helps kind of give the struggling network as well.

He's very keen on low Storey count was it wasn't that CNN should focus on one or maybe two stories and really major on that and trump became one of them ok? Well, Elisabeth thank you very much indeed coming on the programme.

We're going to talk to you about Joe Rogan as well.

Also weather's Jake answer me to respond at the X Rosanna pound wood producer of the catch up on BBC Three and 30 Angus argon deputy opinion editor of newsweek, who's joining us for the East coast of the EU commission opinion pieces as well as writing them.

I wonder if you'll be commissioning pieces about Joe Rogan this week.

Relevant to Americans and so you know we're going to have keys design Logan from an independent Media point of you were going to have pieces you know from that sort of this information point of view we have pieces you know talking about how about you know the culture worried about the class was about the racecourse.

So you know really trying to get that story from our point of view OK well.

Joe Rogan is very much still in a job with Spotify play as you just been hearing CNN sports Jeff zucker is not he's just resigned to do with the information you provided to the company about a consensual relationship with a colleague will return to Spotify and Rogen in a moment, but let's first of all spend a bit of time closer to home because BBC Three is back as a traditional TV channel and it's controller Fiona Campbell has been explaining to a channel is an additional signal.

It's a really loud noise and which we can place our most successful shows and launch new Talent from it's a place from which we can shout and say.

This is the place for you in one switch you switch on you can relax and see your world and your struggles reflected There is obviously evidence as well in the industry and have done some research and nails in America done some research.

That shows the TV is still used for watching cable and free to air services.

It is still a real moment the BBC has Forgot is 5 million people to watch green Planet BBC One The Apprentice is still a really big live you and experience for young audiences TV provide the moment for people to be together and to drive conversation with people want to share things together at the moment.

I'm just look at strictly intermedia correspondent of the Times Are You convinced.

Well, I think much like eating with my ex which was a key show on relaunch night yesterday.

There is something quite happy to see an old and others who are less thrilled.

I think I think the first thing to say is return is an acknowledgement from the BBC they're taking it off there in 2016 was a huge mistake.

I'm not sure that that bring it back now necessary right that wrong for various because other services such as Netflix have caught up and overtaken the BBC but given the arguments to Fiona Campbell was making if we accept that they are persuasive.

Why won't they persuasive 6 years ago when other people were making just not getting rid of it in the first place, but I think what's changed between now and then BBC's realise that and this is it?

Play Destroyer in Wymondham back in some respects now.

You can talk about the Mechanics of that and work or not the owner has selfie camera that talk about enhancing the content Discovery ecosystem, another word that means another screen through which young people can engage with people and then hopefully that's where they're recommended other shows that they may enjoy but I think one of the big criticisms of her of this decision is that 3 is coming back with a lower budget then when it went dark and that to sum it is quite on possible which shows the people who believe in the BBC's not as committed to young audiences.

It should be and if it was it would restore the budget and increased within Elizabeth let's bring you in here because you're the Silicon Valley chorus.

Washington Post I wonder what your thoughts are as you listen to Jake and I discuss the BBC bringing back a linear TV channel presume.

They would be some people in Silicon Valley who might raise an eyebrow at him and experimentation and content on different contact and certainly can we have traditional Media is still very much suffering in the wake of streaming services and a proliferation of a huge brown and when you're an enormous brand a powerful brand then you'll have the freedom to experiment and then they get you certainly you know we have made value to your next developments and you should capitalise on it.

BBC is no doubt a powerful brand Jake but it's got less money and it's be saving money and closing services.

We've heard from David the director-general that some services will have to go.

How does he squared declaration with bringing a service like this back? Well? I don't pick you dance really I think this is really awkwardly times for the BBC BBC licence fee for the next 2 years which will a funding shortfall around 1.4 billion pounds over the next 6 years or so and while doing that it's saying that and doing at the same time as launching so I think the time is definitely awkward, but you for the BBC sake I think supporters of the BBC have to keep in mind that.

The success of the organisation will lie on its attracting new audiences and therefore new generations of licensee pears and that's why this BBC3 play is important to the BBC website for younger audiences Jake as you know is a new program called the catch up on BBC Three it's a 3 24-minute Roundup of the news is some of the first edition next up central conservative MPs have told the BBC that unsure whether or not to back the p.m.

Is after Surah is a little report came out yesterday.

She said that during the pandemic.

They were failures of leadership and judgement and excessive drinking at number 10 and the cabinet office.

That's where the parents top team works her for report will be released at stage.

Well the producer of the catch-up is Rosanna Poundworld who's with us on the media show now Rosanna I know that before you even started putting a program together.

You did a lot of.

About what younger people want from the news I wonder what you found.

Yeah, we did say you've got a really good team in the audiences section of the BBC Who and put together several focus groups for real people from across the UK and Canada most importantly and you know in that 16 to 24 year old age group outside of London outside of the sword metropolitan elite bubble.

I think that's what we're also very certain type of person.

They found some real people and they just lot of research and found that you know they wanted things training to them in a slightly more not a patronising way, but more simplified way unless assumption that they've been following ongoing stories and no more content specifically for them once section SA1 quote even that stood out of somebody saying everytime that tune to the normal years old.

Episodes in the last year and then another particular stories that they were saying they wanted you to cover or to put it another way subject areas they didn't want to hear about.

What was the most interesting I found in the researchers.

You would imagine that are really easy way to attraction audiences would be let's put in lots of celebrity stories.

That's putting lots of entertainment stories and a lot of back overwhelmingly was that on social media so if we had about 12 hours ago the BBC's not telling us anything new we're not getting any extra value from a bullet in there.

So you know if there's a payment story because it's just the broken great, but it's always why would we bother and where is actually a lot of young people interested in hearing more about politics international story is a lot of hunger For More place on something it like you crying and the idea being that you know if you know about the news and informed you can come and confident to explain to your friend or no to a colleague and Phil

But he's my question Rosanna it all that is true in the BBC Weather shape.

It's news for this particular age group as you've described.

Why would you then make a TV programme? Why would you not make digital console? That's placed exactly where we know people that age of spending a lot of time before about the need for a linear panel and the audiences that linear channel is helping.

I'm going to get the researchers found that there is an appetite out better linear TV and appointment to view tv.

People wants tune and every week for drag race or normal people or you know the latest episode of an actually if you stick a 4-minute bulletin in no just after that will just before that you're more like to get people who wouldn't speak out news online as you're listening to this day.

You'll convince to think perhaps the the news audiences moved away from TV while BBC3 wasn't there.

I find the arguments of the new British plastic fascinating and I think there's some evidence from last night to show that the research is correct because if you look at drag race which premier last night is drag race vs.

The World it did it did really well by 4 which is arrival channel also targeted at younger audiences and 34% of 16 to 34 and when drag race was on BBC One BBC One showed it as as part of the strategy only 2% of its audience for 16:34.

So you can see right there that BBC3 a channel destination for young audiences is immediately attracting more young audience is that for you would hope that they stumble across the work goes on Rosanna when you finish speaking to us now.

You're going straight back to producing this evening bulletin.

I wonder what's going to be in it and say it.

16 watt levelling up means perhaps without using the words levelling up for can I sneak in them in there, but you know what what's the money going to be in for different parts of of England mostly.

I think we're going to be taking a look at what's been happening at Raith Rovers over the last 24-hours.

We're in the middle of the Africa Cup of Nations semi-finals we have to be very careful about our audience night, so that can replace them too heavily on story story choices as well.

Thanks for speaking to us during a very busy week.

We appreciated that was Anna and words from the catch up with you can see you later on BBC Three on the TV which is somewhere.

It's not been for the last 6 years well.

That's the real life BBC 3 is a linear TV channel, but let's turn out to what is definitely is media squabble of the weekend surely this the first time on the media.

Show we had a story with Neil Young Joni Mitchell and one of the world's most popular podcast shows Joe Rogan Elizabeth

Just help me out on this for people coming to the store refresh what happened in the last few days concerning those different characters.

Well, you have one of the most popular podcasts In An Audience of 11 million Joe Rogan controversial gas to are very much out of maintenance thinking and have said some very offensive things as well and also quoted this information about Colbert we can talk about what they said like prominent anti-vaxxers who said that Americans have been put hypnotised into wearing masks and hooks into taking the vaccine.

He himself has questioned whether young people even need to take the vaccine and said you don't need to take it doesn't think you need to take it if you've already had covid which is not one medical experts said na na na na na na na na na materials and he has put her statement which were here in a minute.

He's also insisted.

He's not anti-vax, but just

My concerns about Joe Rogan and covid-19 you've been around for some time.

Why have they escalated in the last few days 250 confirm? I'm concerned scientists worried about Rogan's comment, but then it really took off when Will Young and put the said who is standing up against a large institution or institutions in the music industry.

You said I'm going to call my music.

It's going to be me or Joe Rogan and then Joni Mitchell yesterday.

They are in the RAF also popular podcast brown and said she would be no longer contributing episodes.

It's really balloon Dan internally as well on Spotify Longbenton prices over Rogan on the actually having a town hall right now over the sea.

Oh ok and when new young offered the option to Spotify of younger.

Going to see put it so far Spotify has chosen Rogan this is a man has become a podcasting for normal and there are millions of downloads for every single podcast he has millions of followers on social media and give you an idea of what is podcast a like sometimes the conversations can be very long over 3 hours.

He is a little of one with Elon Musk last year which eventually drifted onto the question of the human race Beyond Earth could you call the Galaxy and I was absolutely entire Galaxy so you would start with Mars Buildbase is on more than Mars to jump off the Planets set up places to the next time.

Can you explain to us? Why is Spotify a business initially based around music streaming would move so heavily into podcasting with an exclusive deal with Joe Rogan

Well first and foremost podcasting is absolutely blooming at the moment and Joe Rogan is perhaps of my biggest bet in this area the spent 800 million.

Sorry 100 million time in down into an exclusive deal and I think what it does it speaks to the groin strain in audio ultimately Spotify has determined that exclusivity over Rogan is more valuable than the music at Neil Young and similar to what we've seen in television television companies like Netflix and Disney are spending billions of dollars on original programming 6 shows that are going to bring audiences to their platform and and make sure that they subscribe the same phenomenon in audio and that's why Joe Rogan is so important Spotify because he's

Beacon is a heater.

He's a huge figure in this area and is part of this as well Elizabeth that despite the fact Spotify as one of the most popular music streaming services the world it still struggles to make money off streaming music.

Jacqueline and trying to transform itself from a music streaming company into a publisher there there a media company in the Washington Post podcast you know we had at the contact we have control over the content because it's associated with our brand our podcast so this is a big transition and basically from being a platform to being a straight up media company and with dad comes lot of responsibilities.

Also there is revenue there right now advertising revenue really small portion of Spotify Revenue about 15% of much more from subscriptions, but when you look at the kind of at prices that add an exclusive podcast Cancun generate you start understand also why they're going into it not as differentiation because streaming any orders canstream 10 10 different places.

There's no differentiation and stream.

Guitar to make money do you make these exclusive deals with his really popular podcast years were only gonna go to the content and your service and because of that you can come into really high and prices and they're taking you turn all that so you get the money in return, but as you say with that comes responsibilities.

Let's speak about that with Marianna spring BBC News is disinformation reporter because the Joe Rogan has been accused of a range of things when it comes to covid misinformation just guide us through some of the areas.

He's got involved in one of the biggest concerns when it sorry I've got a very quickly what is the biggest concerns when it comes to Rogan's podcast is actually been the fringe gas that he has featuring on the program and that day in many ways become a gateway into more extreme ways of thinking and more conspiratorial mentalities most recently he has quite a prominent anti-vax influencer who has

The number of false claims about the vaccine and essentially suggesting people shouldn't have it all that it's causing harm and one worry is that people tuning into Rogan's podcast which is conversational say which is the which they might find more accessible and more interesting than a lot of the accurate and slightly more boring information from scientists and trusted experts they do it and then I'll go and follow up there Google this anti-vaccine for inserting a quickly find themselves brought into more extreme worldviews, it's been the same one.

It's come to and all kinds of different topics from far right influencer, so to speak or those who have promoted in cell-like beliefs as well about women and so on and Rogen approach to this is I'm just asking questions.

I just want to understand what different people think but it risks pushing people towards extreme that the otherwise wouldn't have been aware of or

Yes, that taps in doesn't it to the fact there were two interesting questions here one is should these people even be honest podcast in the first place, but the second is if they're going to be there.

How does he handle what they say no from music.

I definitely want to ask you about that before we do though.

He is a little other post that Joe Rogan put on Instagram a few days into this story.

I want to do that.

I agree with is the beginning of these controversial podcast specifically wants about covid is to put a disclaimer and say that you should speak with your physician and that people and opinions expressed are contrary to the opinions of the consensus of experts which I think is very important have done there.

I'm very happy with that also.

I think if there's anything that I've done that.

I could do better is have more experts with differing opinions right after I have the controversial ones.

I would most certainly be open to doing that that younger from you.

Speak is that good enough for you a little bit of the disinformation that we've just heard that people liberal.

He bought it for Bernie Sanders and support legalisation of marijuana, so I know what type of Conservative that is but he's to the left of the majority of the American people also he's never to my knowledge had an inside.

What are the people who has on are actually people who were very respected in the medical field until they fell of fell of the reigning Orthodox be about Colbert and you know what you have on a mainstream Media is bins like people who are redefining what science is and what the scientific method is to me that you can't change when they themselves are changing your mind from week to week.

I'll just give you OK Google who said that cloth masks don't work 2 years ago had their accounts removed from social media now.

That is the consensus of experts cos that is how science works you float ideas.

Question and you try them and then you change your mind now that is literally the definition of a scientific method and that is what has been with under the under the definition of disinformation literally science has been sorted out of social media, but isn't the point that there is information being shared via Joe Rogan's podcast which he doesn't label or challenge in anyway as not being backed up by the current evidence that available and that's not helpful in mainstream is giving you like it disproven week after week.

So that's interesting so you're comfortable with the idea of him is an entertainer talking with the Doctor Who is completely out of sync with the current scientific evidence and if they're saying things which are not backed up by evidence that's fine, but not been proven to be right over time.

That's what I feel like nobody's acknowledging is the fact that all of these things that we?

No longer true OK that is a real problem because science as we know the VELUX now.

It will this is about politics.

I think this is about clash, but I could deliver me is catering like the democratic party increasingly to the pyjama set the people of white-collar jobs.

You can work from home and Joe Rogan is is producing content for people who want to see their own scepticism were going in for medical advice.

They're going in to hear how other people think there are two separate points there.

There's Joe Rogan speaking very effectively to a section of America you don't feel this catered to by other sections of the media, but then there's the other issue, what how does he handle people coming onto his podcast and saying things that are not rooted in available scientific Marianna spring is bringing those questions, but I'm interested to know.

How do we assess.

How do you were says when something can be stay?

Categorically wrong something is stated as being unknown.

After what we find is that comments can be made that and misleading for example or something that is in part through will be misused to then propagate something that's false so for instance the number of false claims about fertility the suggestion that the vaccine world somehow make you infertile when there's just a total lack of scientific evidence and actually the doctor's an expert on this topic would say they don't even understand by what biological mechanism that can happen, so what we often find is that there is a lack of evidence to back up some phones and that something that true in isolation will be used to push false claims about the vaccine for example.

We often see that in discussions like on forecast where people will get back in before they will be trying to understand it and it's spirals and spirals and briefly as it is worth finally.

Do you think that technology companies which is what they were initially like Spotify are geared up to handle these editorial challenge.

Technology company, it's a media company and yes, that's what is actually employees have been asking did they find the deal with Logan 2020? It's just about some editorial control now.

They were just any other company like the BBC or the one.

I've got a bit of control this program because we're completely out of time.

It's been fascinating talking with all of you.

Thank you very much Elizabeth Taylor skin cancer that you and Marianna spring earlier Rosanna pound words from all of us on the media show thank you very much indeed for listening would of course be back at the same time next week but for now.