Read this: Wagatha Christie and celebrity journalism

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 Micklethwaite the editor-in-chief of Bloomberg New podcast That charts the history of reality TV with one of the Host Pandora Sykes and wagatha, Christie how can we not talk about it? We got a key player in the whole drama Simon Boyle is the executive editor of The Sun and that was all gossip column, which turned 40 this weekend.

He faced significant pressure to stand witness.

I'm going to ask you who would play you who will play you in the movie.

Do you think it's in the office and the answer for my hairline is going rather pretty Polly is the best jobs for Ross Kemp was great and the other person got it was Jim Waterson guardian Media editor and you have been at royal Courts of Justice every.

Since it began.

I believe there is a whole lot of interest in this case how long is the queue for the press button press box that morning it's quite extraordinary.

There is a lot of queueing system and how to get there very early got so 20 or 32 tog of is outside and they had to open up another courtroom just to try and make space for the German she wants to cover it well that says about the other court case is going on covered well make up your own mind on that absolutely one more from both of you in a moment and Andy from Pandora but let's start the show with John micklethwait editor-in-chief of Bloomberg because Bloomberg famous for its financial coverage is on a mission to become a major presence in UK news is launched a new subscription website and wants to drive all the likes of the Sunday Times and the ft for business stories John Nicholls the media, show what have you look? What have you launch then? Exactly? How much does it cost would we get for money will 2 things with I mean to some extent where does using what we have.

Been hiding in Plain Sight you have a Newsroom behind me somewhere 500 people from the biggest news rooms in London already recover 400 British companies with long been a source within the city of London and we got a television station radio station podcast everything and what we're doing now as well.

Told you things that are the consumer audience then our aim is to become the main business and finance destination for people in Britain and we've started started I can see my thing as a subscription business for years ago.

We got 400000 drivers.

Just quite big b b b b b b British Standards when I tell using the UK because it's the second biggest market audience sorry for interrupting, but is it more attention using who made me at its financing business and broader and politics in a we have a new global news has more than anyone else 2710 this right the way around.

20 countries we cover the Globe that we also pushing things deliberately at the kind of British market, Westminster podcast starts tomorrow.

We've got some individual things are British business and events.

Are we having a big office and right in the middle of the city in a iconic building and we think there's a lot of things we can do from here and and an ad to British me by now.

I'm in your boss Michael Bloomberg has been came in at the UK media is following the Us Part 2 becoming what he turned hyper partisan and highly sensationalize, so are you see the gap in the market for impartial FatFace news? I think that it was going in the same direction but in America by big absolutely in the middle and being able to the things.

We do you need to be very factual you need to be on the ground and when you do analysis in Coventry you need to really back it up with.

Listen with facts and we look at Britain and I think that was quite big divisions.

Everything's like brexit one of the first reasons why I thought this could work in Britain that came from being at The Economist before was the ice at I saw when we launched the brexit newsletter.

What was interesting was people both from one side of the brexit Debate man from the other was subscribing to relieve very quickly and I think that's a bit at the moment to be able to cut through and say what actually really matters.

We had a piece of couple of days ago about the levelling up when we looked at all the constituencies of Britain and went round adding up all the places which have gone forward and sadly the wordbrain many of the nobody accused us of bias in there was I thinking many cases in Britain almost automatically when people read things they imagine which side they're coming from when interesting Jim Waterson guardian.

Let me just bring you and what do you make of the Bloomberg proposition amount of competition for high-end newsreader?

A lot of money for the quality news you've got the actor got Ben Smith my former boxer BuzzFeed launching a new project You Got The Economist and you've obviously got this Bloomberg going out the real challenges is there enough interest sustained all of these places because advertises love these readers but are there enough people and with enough time in the world to read all of this news B&Q sell them.

What does it mean for the people who can't afford a table because they're just left the stuff.

That's that's made on the cheap.

Just picking up on that is the idea that people would give up their digital subscription something that the times and switch to Bloomberg are you proposing the Assisi another subscription for people to pay for I think you think we make the argument.

We should be the main one we do more coverage than anybody else in your own business and finance around the world.

That's what that's what we do and I think within Britain we should be able to get in position and be able to make same argument but even then I think that's quite that.

There's a large market.

People who have more more money than time people if you're if you're a business the amount of money subscribers the different capacitors you talked about it isn't much to bed with the advantage you get from knowing things ahead of other people and that's why I think there is more room and I think what happened when I remember back at The Economist we only about 400000 people talk at the limit then 402000 people are paying for in only 4 years on the consumer basis to grow and so I don't I don't think all the evidence the moment is typing the same I know there's no sorry.

I was just going to say Jim quickly you wanted to come back in.

Because the rest of market is really going into different directions and a paywall or free and done the tight budget both of you.

Please stay with us as we do very much change Direction I mentioned at the top of the program were going to take a look at the new podcast BBC sounds about the history of reality TV have a lesson this program contains flashcards big watches and forced to be might be fake but the people are all real though.

Some of what they do has been set-up purely for your entertainment that was a clip from The Only Way Is Essex one of the many shows featured in unreal critical history of reality TV Pandora Sykes is the podcast co-presenter Pandora welcome to the media show it is 10 parts your show it's got 60 interviews I understand it.

What did you find that? I'm asking for an answer.

It's off we found that what people have been looking for.

Because we started from Big Brother to love Island with 14 in between and states in the UK and what people looking for now is what they loved about Big Brother than which is authenticity the tension reality TV exploits is that who you are is not is not who others off and see you to be on TV where a lot of that over produces edited me badly came from and we also want to look into my kind of increasing ethical concerns about the format who the responsibility lies.

What does it live with the people who go on television is it kind of a master of self-regulation does it lie with the commissioners and the Producers the answer well, it's because you're asking produces one producer pointed out to me feel like agency was created.

I should be brother for 10-years.

He pointed out that the only people who said I've been edited badly.

The ones who come across well never have any problem with the so you know you could say that it's only it's only ever an issue, but then I kind of makes sense doesn't come after you anything before I suppose I mean it in a bit.

We're going to take a look at the Christie and what it tells us about celebrities and how they interact do you think reality TV invented the idea of the normal person has celebrity presumably it did so a celebrity that is famous for simply being themselves and of course.

There's been a lot of controversy about how reality TV has changed the nature of celebrity and fitting the ordinary becoming famous Way Way Back to candid Camera in the 50s and 70s you had American family and the family and the 90s had the real world so

It's not as we like to think it is also what we do have now is a surfeit of reality stars.

It's an entire ecosystem.

You starting something like love Island you go onto celebs go dating you then go on the beach then you might graduate strictly possibly.

I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here and then if you're really lucky you can be a presenter like Alison Hammond Big Brother many years ago and many people died from Big Brother now.

Really successful can kind of graduate out of it, but mostly stay in the same engine sleep and do you think the genre has exploited order me people's desires to be famous? Well, I mean that's a good question and it's not one that I think I could answer completely either way because the problem is is that people who want to go on reality TV by the people who don't farewell on it because the people who fell on reality TV are people who have a very solid sense of self and aren't really bothered by attention, but there's only two people who.

Who won reality TV and certainly there has been a lot around the duty of care recently not least the for suicides that are connected to love Islands including the and a lot of reality or the Producers didn't look after you and the problems they face but then you could argue that produce them or is it that is really hard to imagine how big are reality TV will impact your life and vacations of everyone thinking that you are public property sold in here.

You're the executive editor showbiz at the Sun newspaper celebrity gossip column bizarre.

Will have started The Rise and Fall of a lot of these reality TV stars over the last few decades, did you treat do you treat them from other celebrities?

Music and conventional love Island the Big Brother's and things like that different different people who come through the reality roots generally speaking are seeking out Spain and fortune ID on the back of it be possible opportunity and generally speaking there be much more accessible for people who quite prepared to the best soul usually just just to say good being more famous and more popular and potentially make it a few quid on the way home now in your mind then does that make them? I don't know people that you're more willing to put in a mean the reality TV probably starting out of Big Brother absolutely and the Only Way Is Essex move the dial on that sort of model has been completely.

Relationship based a lot of what I do and my career it and both of the sun and Jen and generally speaking in showbiz has been based on that and I really quite well many of them friendly.

You're in fairly regular contact and I guarantee the phone rings more frequently from them asking if you can write something it does the other way around as an awful.

Lot of people seeking really well for us on our readers and other times are slightly more dismissive, but it's definitely definitely goes both ways and a little bit earlier to Simon was saying what's your reaction? It was just reminding me of a contestant from love Island who interview call Rachel finni.

I can't remember that made the final episode cos we had a lot of footage, but she was saying that when you said love Island it's very normal school the paparazzi and the anyone who says otherwise is lying.

I don't know whether I think that's true, but certainly if you if you look on the line on tab.

There's often a lot of though they called the past so I would agree that there's much more I'm like with an a list celebrity who I would have thought is very rarely calling.

I think there's a galaxy stars certainly does much more of this energy.

Can you show is called unreal a critical history of reality TV and it's out now on the BBC Sounds app, but I'm just going to ring Simon back in your I'm talking about the relationship use the top showbiz journalist have with these people.

How do you maintain the relationship to keep the stories flowing? Are you or are you going to be saying you don't need to really was always calling you but said it's a damn sight easier with the with the likes of the love islanders and the real proper reality stars and it is as you would like to think that we can do it across the board and there's some examples that I can spend time with you later to say that the way we do things generally speaking it is we try and get ourselves into the mix of people at all levels in fr.

Really interested, then we are interested if something like the violin has.

Best series absolutely I want to know the people who are on it.

Get to know some of them with varying degrees of success of maintain the courier long be on that a friend of mine and Amber Davies number years ago a successful series she's actually go on to be successful on the west end user genuinely talented young woman who has not been able lead into shows has got another one coming up and and friendly with others less so and of course they definitely occasions and the reality when people continue to call long after their expiry is rapper as rather run out and it can be polite and gentle about it.

So I'm really sorry no longer interested in that story but thanks for calling to say let's bring it on to the back of the Christie trial because maybe everyone listening realise it's quite how heavily implicated you and your paper are in that case for people listening remember.

This is the big libel case playing out and I caught between two wives that famous footballers.

Who says Coleen Rooney libel her when she accused her of Passing stories about Rooney to your newspaper The Sun and one of those stories was actually your byline about the Rooney's basement flooding Coleen Rooney says she deliberately planted that fake story as part of her sting operation to catch the leaker listeners.

The obvious question will be who gave you that story and answer the only one that I can give another would be the same one that we we gave in the in the High Court so we can do a leader to a short while ago.

We didn't at the centre of this to somebody great certainly won't the baby taste between the two of them relates directly to stories that we carry that is that is certainly true true stories presented as fact as you as you say that directly from Coleen Rooney online and then in each case and then if they are in this case we contacted the rumours representative.

When I'm going to comment on that but not a problem with us if you want to run it only we know there was a vested interest in running and there is a frustration out of sorts, but I do think they jealous of the proper levels of checking it out.

We we operate great secret.

I don't apologise but my face is in the newspaper 6 days a week with a little story.

Give me a shout I can't I can't apologise for that.

That is basically the business, but we tell stories to our readers who gave us the story about the Direct question we will never really I never will be that we went extraordinary expense in the High Court of weeks ago after being pushed by both sides actually to come to court and documents and take the witness stand that's not something that we would do whatever do an accident on a wider basis were present across the board if you take this and broadcast it's me.

How did it?

That position to be asked to reveal your sources to be on presumably were asking they're asking you know they want to search your phone for example.

What was that like is a journalist that was on my god, what Brian I was quite happy to take some advice.

That was not something down on because we always taken that stands with sauce and it's very important like we're not just wrote book of journalism as a whole and the president said if we back down and done that would have been generally captured tropics coffee industry.

It was uncomfortable.

It was I was very lucky that is organisation important in organisation when large and well-funded relatively speaking and we're in a position to take some legal advice.

I was given some legal representation.

We were able to go to court myself and there and presenter of the why we shouldn't in the judge fortunately agreed with I worry that it had been put in that position as a freelance journalist who feared the potential expense and losing that money.

I would have been able to go at all back and how much did it sell Rebekah Vardy wasn't why not just say that your actual sauce using the most expensive barristers in the business is going to push hard and hard and would like to think you know got a lot of experience.

I hope and a relatively articulate reasonably intelligent man can be tied in knots and ripped off by a barrister on a stand under the pressure that again and it's not a pleasant place to be very intimidating.

I said he didn't want that as presumably as Coleen Rooney said she don't want to be there and it's looking at potential may not want to be there either at the moment.

I'm people whose lives they have been dragged through the dirt like those two in this trial and I guess you could have ended it before it even began.

I haven't got a horse in this race is absolutely absolutely no doubt in my mind that these two women playing you do not like each other didn't before don't know I wasn't in the future started now and we were the Genesis of this of this case will be used as a little bit of a 2 L in park, but our involvement for me we stopped there.

We've done our integrity is jealous by protecting anybody we never spoken to do that in definitely at almost any costs be on that if they want to test strips of each other in some slightly godly soap opera then I hear my to stop I really do feel they have both had any number of ample opportunities and I do mean both of them to come to the table discuss this the money on the table and millions and millions that money could have been better spent.

A lot of the details that came out of field.

I'm in Pretty unseemly relationship.

It looks like between celebrities agents papers like yours.

Do you see what's coming out as damaging to your profession that start with the basics but I could never comes to what it has absolutely it's it's it's it's not something this it's not something that I would never tried to orchestrate myself.

I think what you what you what appears in tabloid newspapers is not very often very well sourced and very well, can I put if the suggestion is and I'm not suggesting is that people believe that we are talking directly to people who are intimately involved in football in other sports in in in film whatever else that we are you know I don't I don't feel that the suggestion that we speak to people intimately involved in any of the

The Sportsman again, I made no secret about what I do and entertainment I go out.

I like to meet people if I can get on well with my relationship at last.

I always will it's nice to stay in touch with people.

I hope that the vast majority of the genus and he's not told you about positive engaging engagement of the industry that they were talking about and I don't think there's any great Shane and having having good relationships to send me to register at the sun.

What is your reaction to the trial and also what time has been saying sorry I do apologise or apologise made a very well.

Well looks like Simon Simon self in that position at no no Germans have a wants to be where you are the story but it is it has been a very strong.

Of Howdens you ever want to see how the sausage is made and it's not necessarily particularly pleasant sausage in this case.

I think there's one particular thing to take away from me.

What's lotions details.

This is an example of millions of pounds being extent on something but I don't think anyone could really argue is a particularly good waist.

Are you still everyone's time and in the same play the allied laws can be used by rich people to fight on Small Things perhaps about who leaked so you're not making us to use to keep the secrets of Russian oligarchs out of places and they can also be by John's Elton John's case's mother privacy case courts increasingly making it harder for the Germans happened and label favours be rich you can afford to fight these cases in their firstly or credit.

To win in most Arenas and privacy law all this is going on in the same day that an MP that's been accused of breaking things and his identity is being kept quiet as Jim was alluding to we lost her ear zxy, and that was that was somebody trying to prevent a story been published on the basis of whether it was true or not, but it was broad and what's happening.

I think is the things like decoration things like what's happening out with the way for Christy case is it is giving people a chance to push back and I doing the Freedom of the press is now very very difficult to imagine that I think Robert Maxwell would look back and smile and say we would never been uncovered what we're up to.

Fundamental going in going on underneath always a little bit of a problem with your lines.

I'm sorry about that.

Sorry to view two listeners and viewers, can I just ask you Simon for your reaction to anything did you could hear it yes, just about and he's absolutely right and it's something that were very aware of the gym and jumbo a case involving Bloomberg earlier this year, but this is this is absolutely powerful and it is very important.

I said it before and I'll say again.

If any of us has jealous find ourselves in a position to challenge the status Quo to challenge both pressure from wealthy people in my case 22 reveal sauce or pressure in in John's place and many others to keep their I don't you're not Amos Armand something can have some pleasant about something probably should be aware of we need to take those opportunities every possibility that a problem is a huge expense that involves and I spent.

Raincoat for a couple of days before hand and as I said earlier.

I mean it wouldn't surprise me at all of our total bill running too many tens of thousands of pounds because that is simply a sort of market you in with this sort of stuff dangerous.

It's just this isn't available to most people and it open just this isn't available to most people we getting myself into Mercury territory and the MP case is very weak.

Is it is a very good for your constituents no idea that they're empty is not accessible to them and is nothing to listen to help with anything if they have a problem.

I could still be considering to engage with expecting something to be done and whether or not they will be told I can't help you at the moment.

You know it's a very very murky position for me and I think as a journalistic industry tabloid broadsheet broadcast as otherwise.

It's one we need to cook together on a stick and gym.

Do you agree with this point at labour laws of being made for the celebrities strange situation where we got the issues that affect the sun can also affect Bloomberg

Of course affect Coleen Rooney Instagram account when she makes a journalistic allegation immediately out so we all have to deal with the end up being held to be the same the same standards now.

I think my beloved in the UK is in need of another look the extent to which it can be used to bully people around the edges and in-house lawyers.

Just go we might not want to take the story on because of the potential risk especially as publications have smaller and smaller budget.

It's really important places like Bloomberg did fight all the way to supreme even though they look because at least make a stand on that.

I think that is always got time for tomorrow for anyone who's super interesting that is back tomorrow, but for us is always got time for thank you to you all to John micklethwait editor-in-chief Bloomberg to Jim Waterson Media editor of The Guardian Pandora Sykes co-host of unreal a critical history of reality TV

I said on BBC sound and Simon Boyle executive editor of showbiz at the sun.

See you at the same time next week.

Thanks for listening goodbye.