Read this: The Ethics of Reporting Terrorism

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts hi, I'm Katie razzall, and this is the media show from BBC Radio 4 hello Sundays attacking liverpool-leeds our conversation today, how do you report responsibly on that kind of incident? When is the right moment to use the word terrorism and is the doorstep morally wrong also on the media show and you streaming.

This is launched on Sky this week.

Can the traditional TV stations clawback an audience from Netflix and Disney let's start by introducing today's guests Simon Walker is chief executive of Marquee in Simon you don't know what exactly is Mark etv.

Well.

Thank you.

Katie good to be here it monkey TV and the shorthand is Netflix for the performing arts, but as I think we'll discuss that that shorthand doesn't work anymore when Netflix has eaten the world so I think the I like to ultimate arts companion in the sneetches performing arts and Culture

Talk about that later and Julia Alexander your senior strategy analyst parrot Analytics welcome, and I think he was ok host the book of downstream.

What sort of things do you cover in that absolutely yeah? I guess we look at the 15 friends and the shipping strategic moves in Hollywood as they prepare for tomorrow and we'll go away from the past wow.

Love the sound of that also here.

Will talk to you both later, but also here is Kamal Ahmed editor-in-chief of the news movement and uventure until earlier this year the Camaro was the BBC's editorial director and before his BBC Daisy was at the Sunday Observer get into more detail later on but just give us a quick overview of what the news movement is good name.

Yes, thanks for being the media show probably all of us in the in the industry know there's something of an issue.

How do we solve the under supply of trusted news and information on?

Forms when he doesn't need to work together to solve that problem and the News movement is our attempt to do so 4 days old is like having a newborn like every external meeting I do I rushed in with the age demographic about audience shift is going up so at the moment younger people get their main news and information from social media, but that demographic is growing constantly restarting young but we want to develop the age demographic that we're looking at thanks Maria Breslin is editor of the Liverpool Echo Maria there.

We should start with Lucy because you know the story it's been across every front page this week is a taxi explosion outside Liverpool Hospital on Sunday afternoon, which has been reported as a terrorist attack so let's you know.

With the practicalities how quickly were you at the Liverpool Echo you was able to get reporters on the ground that day inviting me along learnt about by the explosion and after around 11 on Sunday morning and I had quite quickly had an email from a reader who had a picture of what equals a car on fire quite quickly got to the hospital and it's merge straight away that this was much more than then a car on fire so we were the Lights On the Scene I would say bye.

I just gone 11:30.

Did it make a difference that it was Sunday was that a hard day to get did you have reported in around absolutely with a content as a reporter and a photographer working just the three of them.

We ended up with about 15 to 20 people lots of volunteers.

Dashing across the wider family as well and quite quickly and how did you decide what to put on your front page for the Monday morning one thing from the from lockdown and the pandemic? It's The Importance of Being a trusted news source and I think it's touch up on before the the internet so noisy plays social media is even noisier and and it's important that we cut through that noise so every day when we started we discussed our Tactics our approach.

We are only dealing in fact.

We're only reporting what we knew.

We're only report information from on the record authorities or from sources that we 100-percent trusted so we will never going down the speculative because we knew at the truth.

Also, you know our brand credibility me an awful.

Lot to us and the biggest the biggest discussion we had around Monday's front page was whether to use the word Tara a massive difference isn't it between you know calling at terrorism and not and it has huge implications absolutely we didn't do it like that point.

We had a press conference from the Chief Constable when they confirmed that indeed.

It was being treated as potential terror attack or do it likely and it was certainly in contacts to what was happening at that point and any language that we've used our coverage of the we've been language.

That's been used by the authorities.

You know we've not jumped my alarm in conversations that you've had in the past use editorial policy in a previous job at the BBC does that.

do those kinds of decisions you gotta take the 7 attacks in 2005 London bombings and and Maria absolutely nails it you have to take care, but it is a time as well Katie when there's so much people need to have things explained if you're absolutely right here this notion of the trusted source is really important people come to journalism the trust and particularly the power of regional and local journalism shows it's real brilliant true events like this, but it is important to carefully but at the same time not to undermine the journalistic Instinct to find out what has happened to be able to explain to the public and

Tickly in Liverpool and Maria who are scared? What does this mean? Is there more what's going to happen? But you're right Katie we had many very involved conversation around use of the word terrorist how you related to that and this one is good, though.

Is that I remember back as I say to head of news of the Observer 2005 the conversations are more sophisticated approaches in the way that we I'm sure would have approaching BC and I'm sure they did approached at the BBC is a much more thoughtful and discussed processing.

I think that's all good and thinks and more about some of the other ethical issues here in last week a group called Survivors against terror published a report criticizing the intrusion they cited awful examples like a teenager.

He learnt first from a journalist that her brother had been killed and this week the wife of the front of the Liverpool taxi driver has complained about press intrusion Kamal Ahmed

What is door stepping and how fundamental is it in a story like they're stating the way that some journalism operates and often for very good reason you are trying that first information Gathering phase you are trying to understand the facts and gather as many facts as is possible and that means eyewitnesses it means but as the reported that you just outline shows you have to be cautious and careful and judicious and is always those judgement calls and all of us journalists have been in the Frontline journalism and then managing groups of journalists know that you have to keep discussing how you approach people who are grieving and as you say Casey we may have found out things much more quickly than relatives and as you make clear sometimes journalism missteps, but as I say.

Is important that journalism as its function of explain to the public what has happened finding out the truth about what is happened.

We are an essential part of democratic Society an important part of holy nose and power to account and explain to the public what has gone on an doorsteps as they're called in the old language are part of that but again need to be careful used to now, but you started as a reporter.

I'm sure you've done dozens of doorknox.

Is there a technique I would agree that certainly moved a little bit daughter is something I did on probably a daily basis when I was the reporter and now we're much more cautious.

Did you ever do it with trepidation back then? You know I don't think it's it's normal to love love a doorstep in it in circumstances, but they often involve tragedy.

So it was always with trepidation as always with the greatest respect.

How you do it? Yes, how do you do it and they said? It's just fall.

It's it's you know of some people find speaking cathartic.

I got the idea that that doorstep and is you know that about is not something.

I personally agree with people sometimes do want to walk in this part of the process so but it's always with respect.

It's always taking no for an answer it not returning once you've been turned away and it and it's offering to help and sometimes we knew what we can offer does help people who are in a difficult situation and Liverpool Echo is carrying interviews with people who need a suspect and the taxi driver who had such a lucky escape.

Did you get those by doorstep, then? We didn't doorstep taxi drivers family and precaution all the time if we did not name the taxi driver until we were confident through a third party that they his family were happy for us to do so we didn't.

We are the people that we had upper bear address and message and the windows then they didn't want to be too generous.

We didn't know but obviously you know I think it's been pointed out gathering information in the in the wake of events such as this is important and it's important part of the that sort of public interest role that we serve really really interesting stuff tomorrow mate.

You know these are the sorts of things that you will now be overseeing the sorts of decisions for the news movement your new venture.

I know you're still in your really soft launch face but what kinds of stories have you covered so far? Have you got any stories so far as you say first demographic? Is is young people were all about young news for young people by young people.

I'm not supposed nkatie, but

An old person in their 50s as I am should be making decisions about what young people should see but with audience listening with talking to a young team here.

I'm speaking to you from iTunes in Grays Inn Road in central London ITN are our incubation partner here in London we have associated press in New York but it's talking to that Young team here.

It's me to the social conversation and it's making decisions there yesterday as soon as we have the credible testimony of Mr receipt.

We knew there was something there was amongst our demographic and we did that today.

I've just come from seeing are rather wonderful tiktok trying to explain inflation in 60 seconds.

We know that a lot of the media and sometimes uses language, but many audiences don't really understand so we had a great colleague George here.

Who literally ran around picking things out of shops.

Price and saying that's inflation and that's all In Sixty Seconds quite impressive attention spans, but you do the data tells us that if you can take it says on a journey when they can find something out and it is useful to them and there's an onward actionpoint do think about you get them to Long form content by using that socials initial introduction to the story as a way of entering story, what is that people would engage with a story and sometimes conditionally we can try and be the professor of news and tell them the story and it uses lots of words people just don't understand all use naturally and we're trying to break some of that in partnership with itna partnership with associated Press but it's ok.

It's a massive journey for all of us the key question is in the other people that you're a mean.

Prepared to pay for this kind of news that the key question for you.

Isn't it? What do you think the answer is yes, there is evidence that micropayments and that subscriptions of different types of work for all sorts of different demographics.

There's also of course at scale which is very want to be an appetising model as well media platforms and more engaged in supporting the monetization of good jewel.

Engaging unbiased news and information on social media sites lots and lots deals, so there is monetization models now to enable us to solve this really problem of this undersupply plastic news information on social media and other digital platforms and we just gonna we are starting on a journey ok.

Well.

We talk earlier about some of the editorial policy making decisions around a bomb attack.

I was thinking about other thorny decisions being made the BBC's just pulled out of stone walls diversity champions programme.

That's the scheme for the charity gives advice on inclusive workplaces is your organisation signed up.

No, we haven't had that conversation with very small and we're just starting.

I think you're a process of eating Katie's to listen to all relevant points of view respectfully I did a session this morning.

I think all doubt out of the box with the Freeview this morning.

We talked about these devices appear divisive and how do you deal with them? And I think the approaches to listen respectfully to All points of View reflect on that reflect on what your audience thinks had to carry on in that manner.

Nowhere near the same size though, where we'll be in those types of conversation and the BBC was in those types of conversations you editorial director until this February when you part of the decision to sign up to the program.

The BBC no, I wasn't many people will be aware BBC's Nolan investigates podcast raise questions about whether being part of the scheme damaged the BBC impartiality.

Do you make the BBC pulling out? We always have very good conversations with lots and lots of different groups and it's absolutely what the BBC should do it wouldn't be right meet comment on what happened at the BBC since.

I've left they made a decision.

They of May dated.

They should discuss that in the way that they want to but from my memory memory from my knowledge of how we discuss these things at the BBC there were lots and lots of different groups.

We listen to respectfully we try to make the we did make decisions with the best of intentions listening to all the relevant being heard a lot about divisions in users on various issues in a not.

Just trans right climate change activism black lives matter President Trump

Fran Unsworth outgoing BBC director of news is reported to have told staff for the meeting last week.

You'll hear things you don't personally like and see things you don't like that's what the BBC is have to get used to that you've got this very young team of journalists.

Are you? How are you handling those sorts of divisions if they exist of the actual divisions within newsrooms journalists are inquisitive curious people who want to tell the stories that affect their audiences from their audiences interview and battery for an hour remember my time as a journalist.

That's what you tried to do and this team here is what they want to do and actually what has been really amazing working with is the day want to all learn together and this idea of peer-to-peer donors and so friends finding out together rather than professor of news tells the People by.

Something is really important.

We had some really good discussions about how we approach different issues people have different opinions, but I think all journalists understand exactly is France said but there are different points of View sorry, just cos I want to put that sorry Maria Breslin Liverpool Echo news seeing divisions on the age divisions all sorts of issues that people have different people have different opinions on things and you know we talk about them and were very very social group and I think diversity inclusion is incredibly important to us as a business.

It's something that we've long way to go in terms of achieving what we need to see from want to achieve them, but it is important and everyone is on board with that journey, so of course you know people disagree.

But generally it's important that we present a United front and speakers the Echo Browns really ok well.

Thanks for that and I didn't just come out who's launched a new venture the streamers RS it to and Julie Alexander is here from parrot Analytics you know there's a new streaming service in the UK this week, and I can imagine listeners at home charging one another one.

So what is Peacock and what will to the makes you think my cock is nbcuniversal streaming play Disney is Disney plus and warmer media has each BBC universal saying we got pretty good can't until we wanna be in less but the question post to comcast who owns sky and who owns anything ever so we'll see playing out this weekend is whether or not there is as much appetite in the UK and across Europe and again in the months to come as early to have a streaming server space where people subscribing.

7894 I'm going to happen with peacock where people can watch The Office online order in The Mindy Project nbcuniversal shows some live sports news is whether or not there in the UK and Europe saying yeah, I want to sign up for this.

Ok, so that's peacock this new streaming and it is also made a bunch of announcements in the last week.

I mean is the headline hear that at least two of the big players Netflix and dizzy Disney actually thinking bit of a slowdown.

Do you think Julia there is what we are seeing as a question about turn how many customers are actually staying but in a meal which is your there actually is a lot more room for question that is being nasty weather staying and showtime.

What is a joint offering because well Disney has its for franchise colours with Star Wars Pixar and Marvel and will Netflix Netflix in house on the best and most quantitative.

I'm trying to find a way to really come in and find an audience base and so what happened in Canada or sequel.

Bury Market penetration penetration rates in households, Higher Ground to see if there's room to really compete or if it becomes it's working on licence are content to and that way in the UK of the chief executive of Marquee TV get your the high culture and in a broadcasting the likes of opera and ballet.

How do you fit into the market alongside the Giants

Historical perspective I'm old enough, but I've seen the beginning and middle of the stream and what I was the BBC's first had on demand in 1997.

Would you believe when he wasn't any On Demand and at that point in time Netflix with just just just sitting and the 10 more years on Channel 4 News where the question was can this last can Netflix work back in whenever it was when it launched I think I thought it would but they were there were doubts 2007a actually started to do on demand and when the original broadcasters like the BBC was very advanced actually in this but it does analogy if you think the Star Wars trilogy I think we're in The Empire Strikes Back that it's because there was a long period where is Netflix and Hulu

The really innovative digital players who are innovating in the space in this phase where is predicted to overtake Netflix and the next five years as the Old Media Empire is striking back and Luke and which ones lay on princess can't work it out myself and polarized for you note unboxing and whether you choose to get it from Disney on Netflix or Amazon or peacock Google ever entertainment Brandon Sword of replicates the core of your cable the middle ground is really challenged and that's why we have this debate in this country about channel4.com.

What's the point of Channel 4?

Britain if your Alexa is a lot of point outside the UK mobile passing me on YouTube without building a brand for ballet lovers and I think that's what's interesting about the next phase of growth here.

I think we'll see there's not room for a million streaming services and what people will do is choose their hardcore their favourite brands.

Just to get a regular newspaper or used to back in the day if we got a specialist interest like you know cars angling or whatever that's the brand logo benefited from lockdown.

Go to theatres.

Opera Houses whatever floats your boat you how confident are you that people will actually stick with you research that because I was anxious about that too and it turns out.

Percent of people who've experienced performing arts online want to continue doing that even as you know the factory opens and actually really good example of that.

What was singing the lockdown been really hard for them, but what it has done is Accelerate the consumer behaviour for content like they used to it to pay for it, but also have got their heads around issues and screaming and all about them, but the heads around it so next week with Scottish ballet.

Wee wee commissioned a film Hollywood quality film of a production of Gene Kelly's starstruck with production premiere next week in London red carpet premiere dental services.

Sainsbury's Scottish ballet and with us will market internationally belmar existing based and that favourite model.

I think is where this is going.

What do you make of all this Simon hit the nail on the head up? There? Is this beautiful moment for need programming? Where are the audience is so dedicated.

So you don't have to worry as much as customers and also because the overhead costs is so much lower than a general energy ministry, when I put that into perspective I can speak to Simon budget of course but in order to the park with entertainment DreamWorks Studios have the Amazon and apple play which is an ecosystem.

Play.

They're not selling new prime video Apple TV Plus they're selling you apple and package and is still here.

Finding ways to ensure that you're spending 10 categories and also the suppliers you have you had anything like more people think we don't want to go because it's good game to be as there is people you can't because we're running out of time.

All I can say is the battle is on and I'm looking forward to Return of the Jedi no no doubt will return to it.

That is it for today.

Thank you to you all to Simon Walker to executive of Marquee TV Julia Alexander at parrot Analytics Maria Breslin editor of the liver.

Kamal Ahmed editor-in-chief of the news movement the media show will be back at the same time next week but for now thanks so much for listening goodbye.