Read this: Who's been listening?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello there be crossed fingers in the media world after a long 18 months we finally found out who is listening to what on the radio.

So what did we learn from the first audience data the pandemic began with many of us working from home have breakfast shows and drive time favorites taken a hit and how has broadcast radio done against the Giants of Silicon Valley with their war Thunder podcast well.

Let me introduce you to today's guests deepstone is Chief content officer at that at Jack Media dick foot for audiences that don't know what is media happening.

Yes, but so Jack moody group is one of the very few remaining are completely Independent Radio groups in the UK so we operate 6 radio stations.

National radio stations Union Jack Union Jack dance and Union Jack both of which those la22 we launched during the pandemic and then three stations operating in the area, so jacket, how much was the first Jack station in the UK format which originally started in the North America Jack 2 hits and Jack 3 andchill so is the six services that operate beginning of pandemic.

There was only four and now the 6th.

You've done well.

We've expanded and we'll come on to chat to you a bit later on about that, but today is Matt Deegan creative director at folder Media Matthew advise audio companies on their strategy has this last week been a bit like a level results for you always like that when anything is coming is it? It's nice that you everybody wants to judge themselves against their peers as well as saying how they get on we haven't had any rain today.

This is the audience.

In the UK for 18 months because of the way it's collected in the pandemic.

Got in the way of that.

There's lots of stations that been waiting for these numbers especially some new launches that would definitely anybody was out there.

Also reverse is Miranda Sawyer radio criticat the Observer do you feel that you have to review the programs with the biggest audience absolutely not actually like there is some programs that are absolutely massive that the biggest podcast in the world is Joe Rogan and I feel absolutely no compunction to review that at all.

I'm much more interested in new and interesting and sometimes I go back to Canada very long established radio shows to see how they doing but I think that especially with them long-standing radio programmes a kind of took a long and if I was to go back and review them every week every would just be like what's the point is that really here.

Ashley common is senior reporter at the bird and lead writer at hot pod for athlete.

There's no official audience data for podcasts.

So how do you know what's doing well and what's not? Oh my gosh and a show by Show level it is difficult but this is just a little bit.

I don't want to go everybody with all the chicken things but there are ways to do it and technical but yeah, it's pretty hard for kind of relying on trust and serrated as far as the industry works cast OK well.

Let's start at least with these all-important radio results Matt Deegan creative director folder Media festival explains what what are the ages? So what they are is a usually quarterly snapshot over radio stations, so it tells you he's listening what demographics.

Where people listening what this neon so modern devices FM radio CB radios or the internet and it gives figures for every 15-minutes of pretty much every station in the UK is actually the biggest surveys in Europe so they speak to around 20 to 25000 people every Quarter and ask them what they listen to keep a diary and that can be on my phone on the computer or if they really want to they can write in a book and a given a week to feel back in and a metal goes into the pot and is measured that way at this time round they've added some electronic measurements.

Are there's a few thousand people who got a special app on my phone that listens to audio so I D listening to the same all the other the humans that have that phone and say they blended to my backdated together together a representation of what people listening across the country as you just said you know that we haven't had any Updater for 18.

That's been because of all the panda making and now that they start you change the methodology.

Is it is it really fair to compare these figures to pre pandemic figures 80% of information still comes from the the regular existed.

I've had a big deep dive into into the data and what I would expect has come through and so it seems pretty good like-for-like comparison, so to what when previously from can you give a sense of how important these stats are to you as a business because presumably it's not just about basking in the warm.

Glow of doing very well and the audiences that we can we can generate and or more major operators like yourself, then, it's also useful and very powerful to demonstrate the incremental audience.

So now there are there are sweeter only listen to our services.

So if you want to get to them, then you need to come to our stations to talk to all.

They will share very listening with if some of the big national radio stations or some of the other local radio station, so it's ready for like the the lifeblood of of commercial radio ready Mr commercial word of the radio.

So it is the very much the be-all and end-all you say it is the lifeblood and there is a lot to unpack in the data.

So let's get a sense of who the big winners and losers worth radio critic at the Observer the pandemic sort of big shift.

Didn't they to home Working lots of people very nervous about how that might have impacted breakfast radio where they write worry I suppose BBC in particular moved shows so that they were very aware that people working from home so.

Started earlier was shifted later and you know in order to can of work with that because nobody was commuting and I think that's say I read mats analysis as a reader she's also that the used to happen.

Is that we had a big peak at breakfast with a big peek at what was known as teatime to do with with driving and commuting and because they working from home and are still pretty much working from home that has kind of even that with a slight kind of like instead of it going like this is now going like it's not working on radio switching on there what they're listening to whether that's radio even podcast really and just letting you know that ride while they're going back there day was going to ask you what about daytime list.

People stuck at home much more than last year are they craving the company the radio just worried about a podcast actually but radio really well during the during the pandemic because before was stuck at home and wanting the trade is really good as a kind of community you feel you know who's interesting by Joe Review at that time because obviously all the adult forms can have dropped off and so so every time you receive anything was on the front page of The Observer just unusual for me and and companionship and I do think that radio is really really excellent that this very lot of podcast that could do that, but I don't do it throughout the day you know in any way the radio station can no it's it's still the most in form of communication.

I guess the switch on and they're just quite happy to listen to that kind of vibe of that station throughout the whole day.

Office Jack Media do you recognise these listening habits? I think one of the things that is true that I just read your result is because of the time frame of mind not a lot of knowledge involved in writing in Radar and radio measurement couldn't take place during the pandemic.

So these results down ready reflux, what conjoinment down for example and for that we might turn to our own streaming stats, so those are factual numbers of we can see how many devices are connected now.

How many listen and and that shot up dramatically during the lockdown period there was a bit of a platform shift, so people not sitting in the car in the morning and listening to the radio in the car instead listening on other platforms smart smart speakers etc and out and there was a bit of that going on but I think also pandemic and working from home.

Being say in an office environment where maybe the radio station that you listen to a chosen for you.

You could choose your own radio station and maybe explore some radio stations that you might not have listened before so I think it was a lot of that going on but I mean the thing that radio delivers more than anything is the ability to be topical to be insightful with with the days events etc, but also it is that kind of friend in the room from a musical perspective.

It's that duration of the output 1100mm listen to is driven by Sam algorithm.

What about Ashley common in a did the likes of Spotify and Amazon and Amazon Audible I can say it did they see their podcast stats what drink pandemic in the US me get researcher medicine research.

They release a silly every single hear about podcast listening in the US this year.

Growth and so anywhere from these big tech platforms.

I would also know and the radio side of things you see actually Clubhouse were kind of trying to disrupt the radio if you will still try the kind of capture that same whistling Street I'm not saying they doing it well, but they're trying but we've seen that podcast and just in general during the pandemic.

X x radio high-profile new player.

How did they do pretty well, so they went in with over 630000 listeners a week now.

That is still have small fry play Something like Radio 4 with over 10 million visitors is very well for a long time but for them.

They won't really sure they were going to get some they were very helpful to get over half.

That was told the appetizers so I did not pleased with with their first book and also sorts of Duty for growth.

Still a radio is partly about confidence you know it's confidence from your own team bill so confidence from appetizers conference from people in your organisations who can suddenly look at your information.

I love your data turn the radio come out that they used to get everybody in a can of large environment and tell people off is Rogers willowa, definitely matters to Commercial stations, what they get the Saints the lifeblood in and really is the be all and end end end, but now that you work for the Observer so that's a new arrival newspaper but whatever.

X Radio Manchester to me kind of familiar to the audience already and then because the time this obviously you know a great newspaper it can promote you know it's enormous strap lines across the top of about time you can pick up little just you know little things in in an interview perhaps.

That's a happened in an afternoon and you can then splash on that in the next day.

I mean I noticed that was a Bill Bryson it was that plastic thing of radio presenter getting a quote that actually wasn't news it was already out there, but then that times can a treated as new because it's come out on the radio that kind of combination of the two works really well, they've got some great presenters on there and I say News UK have also announced that they are launching our TV station talk to be but how has two?

Radio performed radio was based on its figures previously it probably maybe wasn't agency growth that they perhaps hope for a question about more right-wing type Media operations houcine GB News radio sun they're all of those make LBC seem really centre stand in the accused of being a bit a bit right.

We make your own bottle so maybe it does show the people do you want something that isn't so fixed in its view and also it shows it hard to establish a new brand especially when there's lots of competition.

I really fall from 5 live from from LBC and to cut through speak to you incredibly passionate about the radio stations they listen to that can be Challenge for any I'm sure that we look at the numbers and thinking what should a watch that you next I think what's going TV they are decent chunk of talk radio is Radio as well to be on there and they visualise lot of their radio at the moment anyway.

It looks good.

Yeah, it looks kinda TV like and maybe it also find an audience in that place.

You're a lot of radio and already Grosvenor polygon from multi-platform success from visualising or from watching spin-off services investing in web content social media all of that side rather than through the screen becomes more important.

Have another times.the New York Times their ratcheting up their own audio free now aren't they so it was just recently announced that the New York Times is working and only so kind of like their own podcast player represented by the distributor shows maybe experiment with explosives who knows maybe and to really trying to bring you got into there you go system rather than sitting control over to Spotify apple and all the other players back to you.

I mean we spoke about you know the winners here, but the people who radio do seem to be losing based on the radar data are younger listeners? So why are they switching off in such huge numbers of the young the only demographic they reduce the listening to Radio so this is which how many people listen to eat, but it's not about 10% over 5 years which.

Actually is does better than Facebook which has lost 70% of the audience is over the past two or three years so easy to jump to conclusions, but when you really dive into the date and upsy 14/15 219th Strongbow it has dropped but the kiwi for the Register is the amount of radio listening has dropped significantly.

It's dropped 40% So you teenagers are Radio future listeners and so if the industry wants to to regain them they probably need to think more about how they reach them with what they do already like crazy services particularly for that mean what you see with the stations like kiss or capital Radio 1 via end of the market, but that's quite broad 15-year old and 4-year old live quite different lifestyles and I think radio someone ignores teenagers and reflecting their world at the same time as quite interesting.

Here for that group you know TiK ToK she's usually popular for that audience and running 4050 minutes a day on tiktok because it speaks to them people like them performing or creating end of the day want to consume so the Challenge for all media is to work out your what is that audience one and how do they create content that they like the radio just have a god-given right to have every demographic consume it just because it's happened historic Lee and now it's got to work hard to to re-engage with the big question keep you up if you are running a radio station that stole your big boss at Jack radio that you worry about yeah, I think so, I think the the interesting thing that Mum saying there and just remind is causing effect thing that could be going on there as well mean and elderly teenagers and usage of radio has has been depressed, but then.

A lot of programming that is aimed towards teenagers is very short attention span stuff and instant gratification and yet.

We know that that demographic for podcast on podcast take more more listening.

That's a more attention span, so is there an not not taking over here but nothing to do you do you think there's an element of if if you build it? They will come to have something for them which we don't necessarily doing in the radio sector and market Sitwell and historic Lee radio been very lucky in that hasn't had to spend loads of money building building brands of spending your above-the-line spend on guinea pigs consume them because you have the radio dial which people are just gonna stumble across in their cards and so the radio sex.

Are you particularly around these brands Radio 1 and kiss and

Already, let's let's let's keep that actually that was a tiny clip of Union Jack radio and I'm talking about capturing the teenage market.

You don't have to match of the day.

So it's and it's just music but if I wanted music I could just find it myself on the streaming platform couldn't I see

Why would I go to Jack radio? Well, you could have many radio stations and from time immemorial you wanted it myself.

Not everyone wants to do that and what we do with Jack well with Union Jack and Union Jack dancing Union Jack rock with the pyjamas we focus on the best of British music so so with Union Jack for example.

It's both pop and also rock but solely British artists and important part of you.

Do is also the comedy so that was an attempted comedy.

You just heard there, but we have right and double right Liners and top-of-the-line everyday.

We have feelings at work with Josh Berry podcast news is up for a comedy award and we work with numerous.

What's around the country in fact we run Union Jacks comedy club at 4 comedy clubs across the UK every week in order to promote stand-up comedy at the back of a pandemic and the reason for that is that Jack is always been a bit of a disruptor brand and the Genesis of the jacket brand in North America was in a world where there is formulaic and formatted radio the way to stand out against that is to do something differently and that's what it's all about and in the UK's first cinema.

There was a lot of very polished and format radio so the way to stand out against that is to do something a little bit different and different like and we will We Will build new comedy output.

We will have you know we will have topical speakers.

We have a josh as I mentioned is a very good impersonator.

So we'll have satirical bits that we will broadcast throughout the day.

I just I just want to bring ashley.com and senior reporter at the Virgin here, because you know the irony is that the streaming platforms have been probably disruptive in in One Sense for traditional radio but Spotify for example is that pushing into speech content aren't they putting a deceased account but as far is released to radio like they're also doing the acquiring company called Betty Labs and it was called bathroom to nap now called Green Room which is 45 audio and they're also have now launching a parrot called carving which is specifically designed to go in a car and tired of giving Spotify that ownership of the car radio time so not only are the big companies.

Yes like pushing until audio, but they're also specifically focusing and how they kind of take over some of that timer.

Spotify specifically want to be in podcast why go into that so because one is every time you listen to music on Spotify the money they have to pay people listen if you're paying subscribers.

That's great, but they can put out so if you favourite Spotify podcast actually double dipping and revenue making money off of you because your subscriber but also put in there podcasts like you being a w listen to a Spotify show your hearing aids.

They make money off that dangerous of paying them as a subscriber, so it's kind of them, but it is definitely an investor point in the hot news this week is the Apple also have a new podcast partner the BBC in they are.

Prescription products so they're bringing over some exclusive shows don't wanting it at 3, but I know it's actually in the UK but it's only a few payable to 9930 trying to reset Orienteering incentive pay for the contest a little bit about the easy-to-use the lump big marketing operating costs and pretty much anyone can make a podcast but surely the problem is getting them heard right.

How can someone for example in their bedroom complete with the marketing budgets of big companies you can just promote their content all over the place.

It's a very different world.

I save the last two or three years.

It's really changed you know we just been talking about Spotify apple and all these kind of big parrots Google and what they really wanted to do is just take over your ears.

So you know Spotify doesn't mind obviously it does as actually just explain in terms of money, but you know.

It doesn't matter if you're listening to music or you're listening to a podcast.

It's just taken over your earphones and if you're just a person who thinks all I've had a great idea for a podcast the main thing.

That's really is getting your podcast her because they're still isn't quite not yet, although these big companies are really pushing there is a natural platform for everyone to go to so if you wanted to listen to the radio if you can kind of you know in the olden times flip the dial you know or just you know it's the same thing but there's still isn't nothing the platforming of smaller podcast is still really really hope for the best if you've got kind of big players like you know literally President Obama and Bruce Springsteen coming in and do you know how to me it's very hard for smaller podcast to be heard you think it's part of my job to elevate some of these tiny podcast because the so long there are so many great smaller podcast that were made and they still exist.

You know not everybody gets to find out by then that's part of my job.

Really quickly, how do you find them on Twitter and I listen to a listen to people who got good taste in a people literally said to me.

Have you heard this like anybody else, but I do panascal around sometimes.

I just ask people say what it on Twitter say I'm bored of my own.

What do you like? You know these things it is important in that way.

I think you'll have to let her know who who comes by your way after this, but thank you so much for all my destiny.

That's all we got time for Matt Deegan creative director at folder Media Ashley common senior reporter at the verge dick stone chief content officer at Jack Media and Miranda Sawyer radio critic at the Observer Media show will be back at the same time next week but for now thanks for listening and