Read this: Podcasts go premium

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 hello does so much of the media now.

I need a subscription Netflix for this Amazon for that Disney plus NOW TV britbox and often do you say now immune to the Blight of the subscription has been podcast maybe not for much longer and afraid because apple and Spotify are rolling out a feature that will let podcast as charge their fans a monthly fee to hear new episodes.

Is this the beginning of the end of the world of podcast as We Know It are we seeing the consolidation of the industry around a handful of tech companies who buy for new entrance and cream off the biggest stars maybe this is a good thing quality costs.

Maybe customers should pay think of the enormous budgets now thrown at TV drama.

Going to get a new calibre of podcast.

Blow-up ears off in exchange for a few quid each month old friends of the shows new new ones to talk this all through Declan more is the head of international for one which is the publisher behind hits like dirty John and Dr Death hugely popular podcasts and no surprise that last December wonder it was bought by Amazon Caroline Crampton writes about podcast she was almost she done which is the podcast to unravel the mysteries behind classic detective stories in real Morgan founded her own podcast agency content is Queen and she presents a few herself and that begin with the media is not a very busy person who runs radio stations including fun kids that is a co-founder of the British podcast awards and basically knows everything and everyone it's quite build-up.

Isn't it? Cost to use god which is a first sewing welcome to you.

Let's go find out about the stories.

You've been telling.

Tell us about wondering I mentioned big international hits you bad and this week.

You've gone very British we have indeed thanks them all.

Thanks for having me on the show so we did launch our first non-us first international local production which is called British handle really excited to do that as you mentioned we have quite a number of number 1 shows that 33 in total in the US including the doctor doctor death and the shrink next door and we've had 6 number ones in the UK so really excited to launch our first original show and it's hosted by Alice Levine and incompetent.

This is your account of the living and poisoning in a hotel inside the rumours proud of the journalists.

He looks back at the group of SSP agents with him that all taking a big risk.

We're not talking about the Federation of small.

I'm not no not on this occasion although fingers crossed.

He will at some point what used to be the KGB exactly that at the end of the Soviet Union particular sound that Declan high production values ok, that's the little gentle humming music is your target audience in the podcast this place a tremendous emphasis on creating what we call emotional at mode of immersive storytelling and really transporting a listener into the shoes the protagonist and where the action is taking place.

So what you telling this story that many of us might remember from 2005 and telling it for new audiences and injecting a certain amount of humour and balancing that say that the last with the and really bringing the story to life when people away.

Do you have research and give you you know you've got to be bought by Amazon I presume you've got a very strong research into who your orders are on others.

Do you have a particular demographic you're tired see no trying to appeal people away from linear stations is there an existing podcast market you feel there's a gap in the market who you talk to absolutely tremendous opportunity for audience growth and in the US now with 37% of people are monthly listeners a podcast that means they're still maybe 2/3 or not think in the UK latest figures it about 2022 months ago.

So the whole space is growing at a rapid pace and the stories that we tell our stories that have evergreen appeal so as we have new listings to come onto the platforms and discovered for the first time.

We're providing great evergreen emoji vs.

Stories for them to listen to you and who do you think of you as your competition? Is it other podcast or linear radio stations? I think you know there is there is lots of room in the space for audio consumption and it's great to see lots of new types of platforms that listeners can find all your content.

With the growth and as they Discovery and Discovery stores that they're like they're coming back for more more and tremendous be loyal building relationships with the hosts and and interested in these stories that were telling a visa versa plays is this show which is new is it exclusive to one particular podcast apps? I know you got your own at 1 B+ that gives early access to subscribe.

Where do you get the thing at this? Yes, it is available everywhere so it's available on Amazon music.

It's apple podcasts available on that you listen to to to podcast within the wondering.

Where is that opportunity if you're paying subscriber to be able to access episodes better at 3 and prior to general release and but within the app itself.

There is the ability to have free listening.

It's just great.

Just where you can discover wondering commercial Helen just take me to think of what informs your decision as to whether or not to put this on one particular app or whether or not to put it around in lots of different places obvious.

It is logical that common sense you want to be available to lots of people but there is an argument that some people so she's if this is such a great story.

Would you been telling us about if it's so strong one at use it to Big Up subscribers to 1 B+ to be more if you want to listen to this you know you got to listen to it and pay subscription early early release I'm wondering cuz and it is available with the actually actually episode 3 is now available on MoDA replace itself, but they can still important for us to be able to take these stories to as many listeners as possible and we'll find a balance between those stories that live exclusively on the form and then those stories that we we take to wider audiences and that can be very important.

That is very important for creators.

Ok Caroline wonder is one of those us podcast companies is attracted huge in before Amazon even purchased it what can wondering your assessment, you know this market, what can I offer the UK market that we don't already have I think just what you mentioned that money in funding I think we've

Some great ideas in created in the UK so far but we haven't had a homegrown sort of venture backed podcast studio that's got tens of thousands.

If not more to spend on AC and I think that's what something like wondering can bring to the UK Space to move is Gold Rush exciting for someone like you you used to you about the early innovators in this field.

You did when you were the New Statesman it was 8 years ago.

I think now do you think so you've been doing stuff for 8-year Sainsbury will come On podcast as well as that does it feel to you like there? Is it in normally exciting moment around you now and you don't have it.

I think there's been a few of those and I know people always look back to 2014 and the debut of the first series of serial for me.

I always gauge these things by how to use for me to explain my job when I meet people you know I've gone from having to say well.

You know work at magazine by make podcast.

What's a podcast give me your phone.

Let me show you like kind of interaction to.

All I have to say no.

Yeah, I make a podcast and then the next question is great.

What is it is a generation of older people as well.

I think so, I'd definitely say that my dad's been through and you think a podcast was just when he looked up and listen again Virgin Radio for show and you and now he listens to all kinds of things my dad's been through and evolution sounds like the name of the podcast.

Let's look at the castings.

Are you? How's your own jokes good? She done it which looks at Golden Age crime from the likes of Agatha Christie many others how does that podcast earn you money if you don't mind me asking a few different ways, so I have a membership scheme associated with not dissimilar to 13 plus actually a platform.

I've built myself where I have about £500 supporters Who episodes free access and the community goes with it as well as some bonus audio, then there's also advertising on the free version of the show and I when I have time in Emmerdale

Dies and get donations and grants and all that kind of thing because it's this is from she done it.

What does any of this have to do with murder mysteries well, these two forms of puzzle the crossword and the classic fairplay Who done it or exploding in popularity at the same time and this collective passion had a common source in the so-called puzzle crate of the period immediately following the first World War II Callison lighters describe the effect of murder mysteries in this post-war period as quote the mental equivalent of pottery and the same could be puzzles people.

Love you done.

It stand crossword the like because they're absorbing and distracting but not disruptive that my mind that would sound not at all out of play some radio.

Are you trying to show today? Are you trying to poach Radio 4 listen to do you have a baby in for my data of who your target market is who you trying to get to.

Yeah, I do think it's a format.

It's a documentary style format that people are very familiar with from Radio you get not perhaps somewhat accurate data necessarily from your hosting provider, but what I do get actually it says I have more listeners now in the US that I do in the UK although it was the other way around and started out and possibly them sort of Agatha Christie an equivalent writers are very attractive to anglophiles in the US I don't know but that was a surprise to me certainly that it was more popular that I just seemed almost to be talking to people here and what's your response to the news that happened in Spotify these giant the apples is 2 trillion-dollar company are going to let people that you charge a subscription does that feel can't say it appeals to me in 2021.

I think it's a branch this 5 years ago.

I think people like me might be more interested, but we all have our own systems now.

You know I have my own completely independent platform company like wondering.

App I know they've got some big publishers like mpr on board to offers descriptions from launch, but I think we've all built our own ecosystem now and they I personally think they've missed that digging apple isn't the first company to do it Declan's coverley, wondering of supreme tears you mentioned audible another at separate Amazon company has done it for years is Apple doing subscription fundamentally change this industry positive for apple is very easy to start a subscription so at the moment on third-party services that might be Peterborough do you have to travel to get it get it to work as a consumer a miss for for Apple looks a bit like buying an app.

So you know you in the Apple podcast that you just hit a button the body got your credit card.

So the subscription has less friction goes down side because it's awful we're going to take 30% of your revenue for the for the first year and then drops to 15% subscribers in the second year.

So you a potential not earning so much per user but you can get more money from more users.

I'm thinking about younger listeners listening to it right now thinking how easy it is to get the podcasting and the fact that there's a gold rush and yeah, I'm thinking youngest has got stories.

They want to tell is it basically with these new entrance really is a normal company is it true to say it's easier than ever to get to podcasting to buy a bit of equipment setup a studio at home and start building an audience.

It's very easy to create some audio that somewhere and then actually get into the platforms that very that's very easy to question.

Is it any good and then also like the change that all media has a special digital media is how do you get buenas for how do people learn that exists and solar podcasting grows from word-of-mouth, but also promotion in when you go to Spotify apple podcasts dimensions in newspapers mentions on.

Social media so that's your challenge your challenges to be able to get hurt.

No one of the the issues that small operators my face with the big guys doing such a good job is going to get squeezed out harder to find those spots where people talk about your shows where you can grow awareness and that sounds and you can't really go subscription business until you've got a kind of free-to-air audience first so lots of to talk about you converting free subscribers or users so if you can convert 1 or 2% you still need hundreds or thousands at least two people to stop paying to receive you or they got a really like you and that's the other option is can you create an amazing relationship with your audience which spikes your numbers were high percentage of people who used to get it free one support you by subscribing because you're doing a show on onto my I can.

See you already also smiling.

When is it any good which suggests to me that you guys listen.

Play Bad lippspringe you in here at you run your own company content is Queen a host podcast called Wannabe what is it is, what is a podcast for young women of colour who are taking taking the bakeries in their own hands, so it's about giving them the tools that they need to take consistent action to pursue those careers though.

We speak to really high achieving and high profile people like even extender who wrote how to be an anti-racist right through Rebecca sugar who has created like the biggest cartoon Steven Universe in the world and basically just going through their stories on the Chinese that's what we do with Wannabe but it's all about community and basically as you were saying earlier helping new podcast enter the market and enter it but actually because it's so much harder now to make something.

That will be listened to picked up and promoted.

Why has it got harder than when you started that because you're you been on the show before United appreciated for the 10:00 news.

You know you've seen that things have changed over the past 4 years.

What so what specifically has got harder.

It's just hard to get the word out about your show so content screening first started out as a podcast marketing agency.

That is what I am most referred for where all of my money comes from Marks and said everything that you have to do there are specific specific way of marketing yourself and your show and talking about your show know how to pitch your show that a lot of new aren't I get up because by their very nature they not marked as they're not promoters and then on top of that you've also got to make sure that the content you are trying to promote promote worthy especially in the big day.

Like The Guardian all BFG with the specific unless that Review shows their will it's gonna be in here referred of us can make up.

Have you as a listen to make up their mind this is this is the moment that you interview transfer Kenny Ethan Jones I wasn't thinking about my mental health.

I was thinking about being the best.

I could be and that was my primary Focus and I came second to that rich looking back was not not like vision by it it was it was what happened into and for the most part.

I destroyed my mental health and you know it got to a point which I found it very hard to find play my life because I was so consumed by the negatives, but I think it over time you know I've had a fun day spellings with accepting.

This is the world that we live in and universes discrimination at people but also I'm still my best of my ability to make that not happen, but also I need to give myself a break within it and I can't continue to live this way to give you think Ethan Jones

Do you find email the interviewees open up on a podcast in a way that they might not on other mediums? There's something about not being seen that makes you feel less self-conscious and more open to having a conversation also just comes down to how good you are asking questions and interviewing someone and you know really being curious and intuitive you go about conducting interviews and I've done over 115 episodes now.

So had a lot of practice and it's been iterating and I've been able to get bigger and bigger best by virtue of me.

Just having a lot of practice of asking those questions.

I'm still often getting the response of old wow.

That's such a good question and no one's ever asked me that a podcast before I've done a lot podcast there's again.

It's just looking at yeah.

What does the listening want from this but also curious about the person in front of me.

I just thought you said before that clips.

It's getting harder.

I think I heard you say that it's getting harder than ever to get the word at this is saying hang on a second Gold Rush people that Amazon of putting money in Apple Spotify does all the social media platforms where the cotyledon Cohn Instagram Twitter promotion.

Why is it harder to get the word out about podcast now the 34 years ago? I don't understand that it's really about the fact that there's a lot of podcast saturation.

Is it the market or any other type? It's just that it there's so much out there and it's really be hard to the thing what's good without pressing play and pressing play requires a level of time commitment so that's why we're seeing actually reeded microgram and back in January where we go about 10:00 podcast creator to starting out or have established shows that have promised and from that result.

We just saw that you loads and loads of people would like to spend money on.

Is and video setup because they want to document their podcasts In video because that's how they think they're gonna grow their show they see YouTube as the avenue much.

They're going to be able to come out and himself.

So it is challenging without having a way.

There's no besides an audio Graham which is depending on.

How are you? Do them? There's not a tremendous amount out there to promote and market audio yet and so it's harder to get people to commit the time especially if you look at a new podcast it's an hour and 40 minutes.

I'm not I don't have an hour and 40 minutes to try out your new show like you got time for that especially when you don't have a reputation of creating excellent work.

You know it is difficult I wonder if I could thank you more.

I wonder if I could ask you to respond to that you're not here to talk about but I wonder if there is you might be ugly might feel a bit circumspect about the possibility that there is this enormous consolidation of power going on in the content business, where is Netflix and Disney Plus

Amazon here, I'm just want you just respond to that thing in real say about the danger that some smaller innovators, if you like might get crowded out for 3 hours because there are more potential outputs outlets or the stories that they tell and greater audiences to listen to the stories.

You know we have the lot of produce in the UK who are working in a whip with companies in the US for for their shows and I feel you know providing more choice is going to help us all so I think for sure we actually need more stories to come into the space because there are a lot of areas.

There are under-represented and we really get the early days in the evolution.

You know even know what 15 into podcasting but we're still in the early days of becoming that messed media consumption outlet.

Is on the media show the one of the heads of the BBC show the exact same thing that it's a good thing at the BBC and other places enter this because it creates a big expansion.

It means that more listeners coming and eventually land on the internet podcast is that the average new podcast so when he sees around 136 lessons episode that was like the latest out like last year, so I think what it's true that there is becoming more well known as a term and people know what it means when you say a podcast in terms of the discoverability of is an independent creative been found that still remains to be seen like you still need to be able to have a relationship with the curator on platform in order for your podcast on the front page to be clicked on and discovered, so I think it's it and know if the answer that Caroline you're not dealing with adding the word podcast.

Cavalry is great and big publishers like the BBC and others do that, but if you're listening to a BBC podcast and they're not saying and now going listen to content to screen.

How do I know that content is Queen just listen to a BBC podcast so I think the the Rising Tide lifts all boats metaphor only works to a certain extent.

What does money mean for someone like you Caroline this huge influx million dreams bed.

How would you like to get that? We would you like you know they're listening now.

I'm sure all the topics of these media companies obviously listen to the religiously they're listening right now.

What what do you want and what you use money to do? Would you build a team? Would you hire people you get better sound quality equipment.

What did mean in practice for you going back something interesting about marketing that being in a completely independent podcast you're doing about six different jobs.

You know you are a writer and your own recording technician your own editor your own.

Your own marketing your own pub.

That's all of these things and I'm pretty sure that I'm not very good at most of those things and that I could hire someone who would be better if I had the budget today so far I should say and I think quite a lot of other people who independent would be sceptical about money arriving from a big publisher if it comes in exchange for the ownership of my contact on my ideas about the BBC which cereal mention their where does the BBC fit into all this matter because we did the people who run BBC sounds on today.

They didn't fancy it.

What do you reckon this all means for them? And we can BBC sounds compare Spotify apple Amazon going on between apple and Spotify you know the two big place in this market apple historic Lee did very well.

They sort help both podcast at the Beginning at the start of the consumer podcast in Boom Spotify have done much better job in the past two years however promoting podcast building a part of their app.

The Spotify app some very well numbers out today 380 million people use Spotify every month and they come for it with podcasting.

That's made apple try and catch up on the day.

Is it and that can be for independent creators all bigger companies? Is you sort of fall down the cracks in between that battle and Spotify and apple slices and their apps and their services and some of us built on content and that's content from BBC that's content from the people on this program 2 and 9 Netflix what are writing beach xtable creators the other offering potential way to make money away to reach audience competitors to if you look on Spotify they make their own shows they both laughed to make their own shows to and so not only you trying to get you your show promote on their platform you also competing against their programs and that's going to be more and more of a challenge you add subscription to that as well.

The BBC you think about they have massive scale great programs you BBC sounds as well, but you can BBC sounds put subscription into there outbreaks pineapple off probably not opened up a lot of problems for them people want one out to consume audio in so becomes a a new competitive a place of the BBC to do what find the same challenges that small craters do with getting their content promoted write on their own platforms in between programmes on Radio 4 on BBC sounds a bit also there but for space on on Apple podcast all spotify's storefront as well.

I just thought about money may not know the sort of time to talking about it's been reported that Spotify paid Joe Rogan 100 million dollars to make his podcast exclusive to them on wondering Amazon the New York Times reported that Amazon 300 million.

I think you don't have to confirm that you can tell if it's well you're wrong.

Who's doing the people have where you can turn people have about when you have these huge influx of January California and west Coast companies coming along you might get what's called a kind of cultural homogenization Netflix's of the Disney would strongly resist that they said they employ local people to do local stories that you basically do have the stories that define our culture being funded essentially from on the west coast of America do you about that? It might do to podcasting in this country in audio culture if you like, it's success has driven a homogenization of sound in I think people here really successful.

True crime show like cereal and if it will I've got a true crime Story that I'd like to tell nothing like they're really happened to the different kind of person but maybe if I make it sound like that fans of that show will also like my show and I think you know you're feeling getting to the point now.

It's been parodied on shows like s&l.

You know the place.

Music in the background of a podcast has become the back of a joke for a reason I think that kind of marginalization is definitely something on the way up anymore.

Well.

I just want the free distribution.

Cheers.

You know is that we have marketers and advertisers or coming into the space because it's in the audience growth.

There.

Are there was ipwc report last week and digital media for podcasting have the highest increase in advertising investment in the UK of any digital mediums up 43% like a rocket ship.

So that provide more funding into the space, but those who really great stories that need to be told that's a nice positive always do it should also add that the the media show is also a podcast and is available on BBC sounds stop smoking that is true if you search already must be the only person in the media who doesn't that you shouldn't admit that sort of thing such a big platform.

Thank you so much to all my guests Declan Moore international head at wondering Caroline Crampton host of she done it not digging creative director at folder media and Emily Morgan boss of content is Queen about next week.

Thanks for your time.