Read this: "We're never doing an anti-immigrant story again"

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 Daily Express lately you know the title that boasts about being the world's greatest newspaper on the front page the Toast years ago of Beaverbrook boisterously anti-immigrant obsessed with Princess Diana and reliable wrong about the weather well, if you haven't you're in for a shock because under new owners.

There's a new editor in town and impacts of a screeching editorial about turnips Express changed ownership none of those points above is actually true anymore today the Daily Express is trying to be Britain's most inclusive newspaper and champion investigative campaigning journalism not least on its front page.

How does a newspaper changed dramatically without disenfranchising loyal older readers is such a move easier in the digital age and how?

Earth can an editor the papers leader carry staff through such a revolution well the Che Guevara of Canary Wharf the Express at home.

These days is Gary Jones the editor of The Daily Express and this is his first broadcast interview in the role Gary thank you so much for your time just because I believe Gary's.

Are you doing the power of journalism to shock I want to start today with quick fire questions.

Please.

Yes, yes or no answer strictly.

Have you voted labour all your life? Yes, have you been a member of the Labour Party are you still a member of the Labour Party did you vote remain? Do you think the Daily Express has been to anti-immigrant in the past yet? Are you really the editor of The Chris better guess? It's well.

Let's go send on the type of person who would take on a challenge like overhauling Express you grabbing the Wirral

Backgrounds give me what's going on in the industry you grow up in the world to journalism college in Preston where your family Daily Express readers.

They were I mean as a child.

He probably won't get this now when I was a kid probably about 6:00.

You know I was sent to pick up the Express everyday from the local newspaper shop and you're my readers that my most of the working class aspirational and Express was a major part of their lives and I just couldn't I wanted to understand I suppose my parents about why this newspapers so important and I used to read and my dad heated it cos I had read it.

I complain I remember one day ironing it and burning in and he went berserk you know it was a very prestigious thing in the house and I had a very quite ensure bringing.

It was very kind of suburban.

It was kind of my parents were kind of post-war and they wanted me to be something that know what it was.

I'd love to The Express and you know it was the Beaverbrook Express it was massive talked about the world in terms of that didn't understand you journalism college in Preston what did you learn at college? Which was available to get on the National Council for training junior school, so I'm having gone.

I I kind of wish I had real aspirations of a literature search of nature.

I tried to get into crossword he got me a job on my first job that it was thatcherism unemployment really high and I started work at a local newspaper meal afterwards, so it was a great instrument for me and told me everything is local paper.

It was the Guardian

Lots of you know remember Lord Stevens coming round and sadly the only has one question which was doing own the freehold, which I mean number of setting the editor and we used to make then I think was about £100,000 a year in 1979 18 vanish times.

How did you get your break into Fleet Street I went to work barzagli in Dubai gulf news Dubai then was not what it is now.

He was growing quickly and we were I was an expat journalist brought brought into try to mix it up a bit on in to Fleet Street by writing one story.

I wrote a story about Don Revie the England football manager.

Ex and he had motor neurone disease you went to Moscow and you know I saw the story back to the UK to the news the world was a big fuss about it because it was denied on on on on on television and I didn't realise the cup of Lidl

Are at the time and I'm old story short there was an apology on National Television and when I came back I got shifts and you know I kind of that was it to me I knew no one in London and I knocked on the doors that you know even then it was really difficult again your first foot in the door of Fleet Street of the back of that story you got into the News of the World it was a run by cycle Piers Morgan at was he back then the the relaxed elder statesman night figurine.

I feel Good Morning Britain or we talking or shouting matches in the morning news meetings.

I I remember appears speaking when he was first appointed and they de28 of course because I was a couple years old and I thought and he's talking to me and you know that that's of self-effacing self-deprecating way of his and he read my mind.

Do you looking at me thinking what am I doing here as editor of you know the world and I'm going yeah.

Why why you so lucky? It was part of you know he was perfect cutting through this time.

It lucky still perfect first time now.

He's an agitator going to be love stories was he an effective editor of the News of the World did Rupert Murdoch said to him.

I think circulation was about 4.3 million and Murdoch said to him.

Get it back to 5 million and you know just spent every penny.

He didn't have you didn't know they were no but he just went crazy and and you know we got it up to I think 4.89 circular.

He went to the mirror so nearly five million and money to spend that sounds like a fruit that I never worked in that even barked at the Daily Express Gary who are the readers.

The Daily Express Express it's kind of Middle England and if they they are the brexiteers in that they felt this and didn't really have a voice in the Daily Express gives them a voice something there that bridge aged 55 + in print younger 15 years younger online update our traditional Tory authentic voiced.

They are articulate you know they certainly gave me you know when I took the job you you're very helpfully set out my previous condense condenser and you know when I first took the job.

They took the time to write to me to email me my cancer wine increase quite dramatically during this period as I looked at the the readers basically questioning why on earth Gary Jones with his past career was in.

The newspaper so they're they're pretty militants there.

They're outspoken they compassionate.

You know I mean I I I hate the idea that just because you're a conservative you can't because I don't really antagonizes me because you know I either do that loyal the compassion the traditional and they believe in a country setting up, but obviously the case may be compassionate and what do you mean my pretty militant in the fact of the they kind of know what they want.

I mean they they look for I think strong government are they baby? They want to just a system that works so they like to feel they have a voice so and they want me through the newspaper and and and and and articulate what they think it is you know I I am the there waiter as it were describing a Sony different ways as the the leader.

Ever heard of it and then it is a weight will get into that and how you done it about the royal family in The Royle Family still very keen interest for them on my first missives which shower was critical was when I fell for the queen on the front page and her birthday so you have a look and he was an oversight or was it was it was put you in a conference.

You thought now we don't need that.

I think I wasn't it wasn't really on my news agenda.

It perhaps I should have been very they left the royal family and the royal family and all the palace is one had a relationship with them.

So it's the the royal family is very important part of their lives.

I mean I think we've Selena pasty the Express had something I don't think I'm going wildly off message here to say that he had an obsession with Diana wish of story.

The pals we give we do a fair amount of coverage, but we've left those days behind in 2018 reach PLC it was then bought the Express and the Daily Star from Richard Desmond reached about the adventure both titles we spoke to Felicity Cross from the start of very talented at report O2 a few months ago on this shows she told us how the star using humour to win new readers.

What was your brief for the Express what we explicitly asked to do not make it up I suppose I remember saying to the former chief executive Simon fox because obviously the competition and mergers authority someone looking at whether trinity mirror was I supposed going to change all to The Express and the plurality of of the media landscape with with the purchase so

To be honest, I wasn't really given a brief am I only took the job really at the very last minute.

I didn't have much time to think about it and I can't landed by parachute without toll really because I couldn't actually speak to anybody from the mirror so I was kind of flying solo, you could teach anyone for a while because he was just top secret that you were going to be attending to the throne simply because by the rules of engagement.

I couldn't communicate with the mirror bath the specific plans of what was it was the kind of it was under investigation as it couldn't talk about the future.

I mean I just told you my boss Lloyd Embley you bring your sense of morality and ethics.

Because it does have those are unusual circumstances in which we become an editor at let alone when you're about to unleash the Revolution which you have Unleashed and we'll get a revolution in a moment Sub-Zero big moment for you when someone calls you in and says you know what newspaper does a dream for many people to become an editor.

Did you have any include? Just think about that moment when presumably lower Denby assistants E17 word remember? What happened to Piers Morgan you failed to take his jacket when he was sort of forcibly removed as it were from the from the mirror when they got rid of him.

So I took my kids because you can never be too sure I went down and what was coming.

No I didn't.

And I said no invites me down here for coffee although.

I will have a coffee and then you said look I'm looking for an edge of Express what do you think I said how long ago he said minutes you said you can call your wife.

I said she's teaching pilates.

She won't welcome any intervention and I'm giving advice to a close colleague the week before I said if I told you I want you to do this job never ever say no who is that you gave us to eat was to the news Sunday Mirror and Lloyd wanted him to go to the Daily Mirror and he said I don't really want to go Isis noise asked you said yes, I said take it never say no when you accepted in those 5-minutes and maybe had got through to your wife who's teaching Pilates at that you were gonna take on Express did you know then that you have the freedom to detoxify the brand or did you think if someone with your politics your heritage that you were going to?

Continue expressing the way it's bad been produced the past 10-years.

I kind of went into panic mode in that I just thought wow.

I had obviously strong views about the Express I grew up with it.

Yeah my parents kinda, long since dead.

I can't take it lies VIII was a job and a half I had been seen it as a great British institution with a through various managements over the Decades you know that I was incredible heritage Uno after Christensen who was the great Express editor for nearly a quarter of a century was the hero of my land.

I can't realise that you know I I had to reshape my brain pretty quickly, but why did you decide detoxify the brand rather than for pragmatic? That's commercial reasons decide that the Express needed continue as it was very

Human being and I worked with him houses deputy on the Sunday People and Dwayne on the Daily Mirror for many years and I would have taken the job.

If I didn't feel that I could go in and do what I wanted to do from day one.

I mean I walked away and I wouldn't put my name to the newspaper harm in being anti mean.

Yeah.

I thought it was a challenge that I kind of wanted to take see the nervous of doing it.

I didn't want to know the readers and anyway cos I've got this great affection for the Express reader.

I would have never left me and onion Ifield to my parents, so I kind of wanted I wanted to I wanted it to have values and a purpose when you added in Interview with the Guardian to make your first first anniversary of your being in the job guiding helpfully collated some Express front pages.

I just read you a couple of his head lies Britain's 40% surgeon ethnic numbers.

Dreaming caps lock front pages migrant workers flooding Britain Britain opens door to asylum seekers EU migrant to get British pensions migrants grab 12000 jobs a month work as of being fired for being British soared 20% in a year migrants Rob young Britons have jobs when you hear that now.

That's the smiling.

What do you give you miss one the worst plumbers Muslims tell British go to hell keep it on my screen needed everyday.

He just reminds me of just to go as far away from bad from page as a posh.

It's not the Mama part of you know I mean I die.

I've always believed inclusive 80 I hate the feeling the you ostrich somebody because of your race color Creed III just don't get it on her behalf but you said in the interview with Jim Morrison the Guardian you said that you felt pretty kind of almost sick of the eye.

Your son felt sick at the news you'll be editing the Express isn't it almost insulting to readers for a new Broom to turn up and say the paper that you've been buying really give you your money to for a long time was completely wrong and we want to go about as you say you want to go as far away from that is possible.

He said you said about the Express this was not representative of the kind of society.

I think we should be so kind of society your readers were voting for every single day with their money.

Yes, it's a fascinating point as to what I know.

I don't think there was a particular awareness within the reader that this was I think it was a part of society.

I think was a fierce you know terrorism.

Obviously was out there in in incredible way the society was with looking at and and and and

Sudden newspapers including express reflected that like kind of fear Factor within the readers, I don't think they're coming the Express readers are not racist in anyway shape or form and and you know I just think it was it was a diet of anti-immigrant when we ran a story today in the Daily Express about the NHS Simon Stevens the the chicken executive talking about the southern rainbow with Nations 211 countries represented within any the NHS you know which I think is an incredible achievement and you know someone in five workers of are immigrants sent and they do a great job.

I want to celebrate that where we are Society today so I I look I think I think the Express reader was.

Misrepresented in a way it was built up over a period of time a stigma I think about the Express in I was very conscious when I first went there.

You know silverbanks stop funding hate the campaign and you know I just goodness you know this you know it.

It's shocking the there is an organisation that the basically wants to affect the commercial ability of a newspaper group because of the kind of content it puts out so look I mean.

Wanted to put together what I saw the Express really represents today and and and and and and and I'm getting away on Thursday my first news conference.

I just said look whenever whenever going to do and islamophobia anti-immigrant Story Again tractor staff a fantastic UNICEF it wasn't really what they wanted to put out in their name.

They would just the they were part of the systems it were so you know they've been really helpful and encouraging and you know when we have some of the exam tips.

Ok me and you know these changes change the staff.

I don't know what you're talking about exactly the same in a different.

I want to modernise express.

I won't be expressed to be as it was in the past.

You know forward-thinking and vicious to appeal to a very wide cross-section of people you know I've I've had very positive feedback.

I I meet regularly with the Muslim council of Britain and represent service and that makes the people as I can as possible because you know I think that's my job.

That's part of what Britain is about tonight.

You know yeah, I've got two teenage kids talking about me about issues in politics in the Express to be here and relevant for generations to come when you told your son that you're good at the Express should be about a future price.

Are they saying I've got a new job got a big job.

How they go down.

You know he goes to Eaton I said.

I said on the new release of the Daily Express and he looked me in the eyes and you just said I feel a bit sick.

I said sorry I said yeah, you'll be as 4th round.

Yeah, I feel it and yeah.

I can't say I don't feel little disappointed right.

Ok.

That makes me feel good to anybody else you got what I hope.

You know doing Independent School please just got a round of the open package me up and send me on my way, but that's kids for you.

You just explain to the stock funny hate when she mentioned a moment ago is an organisation that does monitoring and they want less less money basically to go to what they see is that the funding through at Jenna's em of Hay Day I should say in your defence by the way.

They have noticed a change in your stance over spoken and publicly about the fact that they no longer call one advertisers to boycott the Prestwich just a change that's been noticed.

I'll get onto the public whether they've notice to change it just a minute before then.

Starcasm change user when a new editor comes in at that will bring a managing editor or deputy.

You've got a brilliant and talented Michael Booker working for you.

Did you bring in and enforce it to be your bad cop to your good Cop no I mean that the I think they wanted me to go in just really assess what the Express was about and and we had to make some pretty amazing savings which was challenging and kept kind of most of staff is not all the stuff.

I can't work with the colonists forgive.

You know the readers love economists with Richard and Judy you're a great Freddie Forsyth who's free spirit.

Trenchant is Carole Malone equally trenchant Virginia Blackburn lovely warm and kind of kept most and because the

Read the passion about them we got Leo mckinstry Brazilian historian.

Who I mean, I mean we were very wary of each other when we first medicaid in the office and I think he thought I was going to sack him and I are going to sack him and then we sell opposite each other than I thought about the war and then by the end of that.

I thought the next on the right.

I'm sure we can work together and you're looking for Dave challenge me in the fact.

You know so you look at some of the views and you think about that is but I've got I think they appreciate that I allow them to say what they want to say to me.

I've been in a position to you quick as well.

Very powerful writer when he was on his way to the office you started that meeting thinking you can have a kind of different.

She probably had have a lot more than you would like in your career night before too many of you sort your gonna sack him but he took his way out of it.

He charged you he went from being sacked and losing his job took his job.

He must have the NX a massive must have something special about him.

He's probably erudite the readers adored him with his that's the people you said it was gonna lose a job and it's coming across these beasts who have views and opinions that I'm trying to get my head around and look on play communicate really effectively with our readers and I'll read us adore what they say and there were major part.

What Express is a bad and I'm looking at the early days.

It did take me some time to adjust to look you've got a low people what you want to say.

I mean you can't go nowhere ditto.

Can you know I'm not there to dictate what Express is about the readers own the brand they owned the written word.

He just for me to allow people they want to read to communicate effectively we talked a little that's right through some of the commercial applications of all this so you got to go.

I'm going to go to where you want to change Express what about your boss is did reach think I'm audible start with papers and Eric more traffic to your landlord of excuse over pagination.

We were like a 56 page that was ads all over the place.

It was the newspaper had no fluid.

So, are you know a lot of kind of baffles to try to get more space to let the the auditory of flow and to you know so to get more campaign in some space to breathe so they look at her to the word cost-savings.

I had to hear that that wasn't wasn't easy to go into a newspaper.

We need to say there's blah blah the business plan.

Tell me about it how much how much are they said tell me about how much should I save a credit or Amersham commercial? Chunk from editorial? I mean it was across the group.

Obviously you know pulling word synergies and so you know there was a contract and I think editorial you're pretty and tag but obviously the other commercial arm of of of the expressed more of a hit but it kind of it.

Period of months lucky trying to get a newspaper every day and try and get my head around where I wanted the newspaper girl whilst having that hanging over me as it were was even look at you know you've been in the same place as part of the job.

You can't walk you can't just say you look I don't do the finance Bill what's the what's happened to circulation in traffic and will tell you is a pretty good.

You know where are you now be salon average Vance 150000 newspapers day.

You know it was there was a little bit of a hiccup early on and then went down to the circulation to climb was about 8% which was really really happy about you know I got a kind of better understanding.

You know I mean suddenly brexit and I suddenly becoming I became Formula One Direction reuniting ok.

I need to understand this to I need to give you the Cross because I'll read it really feels strongly online is a massive success story you know.

In the space of 14 years from a couple 100000 page used to 300ml of Incredible operation, I've just kind of take some of that online rota and I'm looking to further develop the Brand and it's values more campaigns more investigations to to give it more authority and you know but they do though they're a great team.

They do they lead by Jeff moshi.

Does a really fantastic job and I read emails everyday to the staff sparing them on looking for opportunities looking really competitive market and a you think that you looking at charging online Express might do know what's the bottom line.

What's the situation fight with the finances is the Daily Express profitable? It's is why because you know it's run very tightly and where do you see the chance to increase profits? Is it in making more money out of avocado?

Used to say happy birthday present declined you and yeah.

It's understandable in the in the industry.

Are you looking to making roads against other titles chip a bit at the mail to a bit of the eye are you looking to make more money out of your advertisement? Where's the going to come from few commercially the future if I had to start my career tomorrow.

You know I want to be in digital you know I'm in Love prince but my job is to keep printer float and it still makes a lot of money prince.

You know circulation advertising.

It's still really really important as to moving forward, but you know I'd be a fool not to say the future did folding our chief.

Exec.

Jim modern is really really on it and obviously the other the way when pushing the kind of data the newsletters the way we're trying to deliver more content to the readers.

Is it is you're looking the the last quarter you know.

Twenty-five 25% of revenue fantastic achievement that's where the money on the growth is and the only reason the share price is as it is because people like me and I've got to put everything we can do into making would you just say you're brilliant British photography competition and I've had a look at the judging panel is not people expected to find it in the Daily Express before your tenure as actually laughing again at Tristram Hunt former labour shadow secretary in charge of the between Albert Museum of course the Young Vic directors Armagh number plays about races amongst other things the message you trying to send with that judging panel.

Just said it yourself and I'll really I mean you just listing those names.

I mean there that is a diverse group of people who got talent who won to work with Express I mean, are you know I communications manager?

The great job bringing these people together and and and look I think it's easier now.

We know the kind of scepticism about the Express kind of gone I mean did the still perceptions about Express from the past which still hang around a bit especially on Twitter but yeah, we we want to try it to be refreshed in the way we deal with people might been reading courage that look have that panels greys and and people than happy to work with us and III that to me the most the Best Thing That's Happened to Me in the past 3 years is I don't get no back to get people saying yeah, I'd love to work with you and and and and those group of people I feel great that there is another aspiration is a tonne of paper your parents may have been into channels are spirits edited by a labour supporter.

We had on the shows trying to be inclusive and it's called the Daily Mirror and it's your sister title.

Point of the Daily Express been like the Daily Mirror values that you've described and Panel mirror values and your mirror man aren't you were so many years it's called brilliantly British would the mirror want to wrap.

It sounds really British I don't know although it last night in to see when I see Keir starmer now.

I see a big Union Jack in the background standing on a on a pole looking probably so I we are distinct I mean you.

I'm in the mirror does shambolic the headline was it the day before yesterday is shambolic Gavin Williamson you know that's not work.

We're coming from you know where where pro conservative.

We we we tried to tell the story straight so the love.

There's the Atlantic ocean between ourselves and sufficiently and politics.

How much how much did Keir starmer you haven't have you told him number 10 Boris Johnson you onto the speed dial with them.

Yes Prime Minister recently every from England Wales Northern Ireland the couple of them so yeah, we get on pretty well.

Did you go to number 10? Sorry? Did you go into number 10? Yes bit weird bit weird for journalists politicians presents isn't it? Being player scrutiny to power should you be keeping a certain cool objective distance between them.

You have gets me anywhere.

I'll I'll try the other people obviously he has issues at the moment with Nicola Sturgeon as suggested that he might want to wear his.

Sometime we we we we had a good debate discussion about the future.

You know how we can work together.

You know me these obviously aware of my back leveling up to me is a thing you know I I speak with you know Esther McVey and the blue collar conservatism group.

We we had a virtual conference which went very well last year so and yeah the prime minister knows that he needs people I guess that he needs seen those Redwall seats table we can expect you to be endorsing the concert at the next election and giving Keir starmer labour Thumbs Down

Yes, we talk to about immigration.

I don't talk too much about brexit.

Do you know the papers stance? Do you think that needs rest was a significant influence on the brexit referendum.

Yes, I mean.

I I think probably I look into this something.

You know I have I'll never to my dying day.

I'll have the image of you know the Express crusade on the White Cliffs of Dover yes, I mean you know UKIP Nigel Farage you know it was it was Express played on Absolute pivotal role in pushing for a referendum and and bread delivery and where do you sell the lockdown if you given a platform to lockdown sceptics the way you support of government are supportive of the government.

I mean I mean early on that look you.

You look with obviously trying to follow the science and we've all got pretty Valance jvt.

Then they will become.

People who would never wanted a public profile that we've got to know when listening intently to what they've got to say and somebody got a kind of we've a political mentor into how we kind of make this word for Society what I thought from the outsiders look I've got to tell the story straight.

I mean there's some headlines in other publications one was so when will they listen and it had in a whiskey and Valance uno's have covered rules may increase deaths and I just can't sort this.

I just want to tell the story and the impact of had from the reader is milk.

Thank you for telling it straight because we really appreciate you not putting a a stance on it calling for lockdown to be used to early.

Just just just telling it as it is in a factual as clearly as we can they say that the BBC goodness me go back in November Donald Trump cited articles in the Express to back up his claims that there be the electoral fraud and Express

The polls in the run-up to the election suggesting Trump is on course to win.

What did you make of trump retweeting your paper that causes of excitement in your home editorial conference? I got a lot of emails and text quite quickly on the subject.

Yes you know we had 450000 page for you.

So that was a positive your the was you are readers.

I think work.

They saw in early trump.

Do you know I think the possibility of the US UK trade deal and they thought he was an important person who would project are kind of independent future and I kind of like populist tax reduced to keep saying a lot of things that they can't have agreed in and then obviously he went a bit off.

Off messages and the thing isn't ready with that of messages.

Is is is at the things you say let's come and you'll be very generous with your time and in the time.

We got left on come fullcircle it back at your own career.

You work your way up to magic roles of the people as he mentioned the Sunday Mirror before that you do property services including a spell and the investigations editor at the mirror you champion investigations.

What's the hardest investigation that you pulled off in your career.

I would say the the one of the Express is probably the assisted by Mrs campaign.

Wish you had is an American pharmaceutical company called Vertex and the NHS not speaking had a drug that extends Life by 23 years for young people and you have the reason why they're not getting a that drug and look it was over 100.

And cost would have been bad half a billion and and EE was the campaign is you've got you've got a really back it orange essential part of what the Fabric of your brand is about and you've got to believe it's a mission statement and and I thought I just got to put this in every day and and sometimes it against your instinct.

Do you think we'll actually disrupt slow the paper and unblock numbers flashing at once well several times and you you know it's difficult to do it a time for some time to go to do because it's the right thing and then you'll have to be quite a lengthy period of time and beer the deal was done blah blah blah, but you know that gave me the greatest satisfaction that you know when I first went to the Express in I looked at the the trophy cabinets it where and mysteriously all the trophies.

I think was a

There was one for you best use of English just fell into the bin so having a winning you know having having that winning the colour.

That was a really important.

It's really important to me to you know it's frosting the Express back to where I hope.

It's going to remain and that was that that to me the hard complain with taking.

Which was getting to the point that sounds like Back to the Future might be a good good mortar for your career you been in the game first double-decker.

What can you tell me? What can fascinated about the alleged phone hacking at the mirror when you were there? I just it was for what for stories that were absolutely inconsequential still being paid today for what happened and to me you know it was tragic fire industry and painful.

Is it absolutely sure there is no excuse for for hacking into someone's personal information.

You know it's illegal you cannot in any way.

There is simply no excuse do that happened at the mirror when you were there.

Look you know the Mirror has downfall phone-hacking was aware of it.

No, you know I was worried that have been talked about but you know I had I had no direct knowledge with no you didn't colleagues are having a phone Eugene instructor had a phone or Plano know.

I'd never do that.

You know it's obviously more than cheating in its simple Basic Instinct I want someone to tell me story.

I don't want to learn from it from listening someone's phone message is in defence specific word.

Would you say the same about the massive use of Prime

Navigators yes, yeah, look you know I was part of a time in newspapers when you know newspapers including you know which did use private investigator widespread looking back with a mistake.

Yes, why why is simply because more journalistic methods that the acceptable should have been used look it.

Was it was finding information about people that basic information was actually quite difficult be pre web you know it was really quite complicated and a lot of newspapers use them.

You know fired.

You know remember listening to we stopped.

I forget who I was listening to I was listening.

I think it's to the Today programme and

They started talking about the criminality involved and me and I called her fault.

I said ride.

We cannot use private investigators.

I mean I was on the news desk then at the mirror and I just said that she'll never but what can you say to listen to this guy who say you know what looking back at some of the things that we now know about what the journalistic practices the daily journeys to practice in the 1990 stuff that would never be repeated today people say this is an industry full of people who are criminals some of you with being punished in operation Weeting others have had their effect but the actual Britain's journalist wear their own worst enemy that they did things that were absolutely important.

Not just a celebrity's but the normal people and that just some extent the perpetrators of some of those crimes haven't always been severely punished for it.

Attic it's too late now.

I think look the Industries almost unrecognisable for money was 2030 years ago.

You know I'm for the better.

You know regulated under intense scrutiny in pressure to do the right thing to work within a code of ethics and practice and I did I I am more than happy to work within those limits.

You know it in away the industry should have seen what was happening to itself and reacted earlier.

You know look have we atone for their sins.

No, I think we're still getting there, but you know we've I think we've learnt a lot.

I think it's part of the kind of social economic change of the time and the 1890s that there was a bit of wild west of the way banks operators the way you know the MPs expenses scandal new shoes across Society of which the media was guilty intermezzo the the industry's M40 is better today.

I want finally to ask about just one question about the Tech platforms with talking in the week the face that launched their new tab in the UK that is fascinating case argument negotiation you call it between Google and where in Australia there's a threat from Google to come out of Australia.

Australian government want people like Google to pay news publishers.

Sorry Facebook's doing the UK can I just ask you one question principal about that case do you think that governments should be saying that these big take that forms should be paying publishers for content so much so that if we had live in a world without Google to sobeit the simple answer is no I mean look Facebook we have a relationship with Facebook news and Google which is more positive thinking out of listening to Nick Clegg is saying that they want to support great national and regional journalism.

I want to hold them to account at that.

Obviously look legislation is on its way isn't this you know there's no doubting and Australia the prime minister's you know he is telling Google I will not be black men don't tell me you're going to remove yourself as a platform.

It's a fascinating state of affairs.

I don't think it's going to happen here.

I think it will work more by car.

And look at I think it's the future can be really fascinating as to how we evolved out of this.

I'm down fully Facebook and Google you can talk about the issues that the just had in the past and rightly so and the same as true obviously Facebook and Google and how about they go about their business, so they have to change Aiden and the way that you know he talks about Zuckerberg as being the problem and you kind of my goodness.

There's going to be over you know ok trump was a bit scrappy Bayern vs.

Soccer begin on tangled money to watch them indeed.

You say fascinating fascinating Daily Express and it's been a real what is regulation talk to you actually in Great to go.

Thank you very much indeed for your time.

That was Gary Jones the editor of days for us.

Thank you so much for joining me.

Thanks.

Also to John Poland who's today's studio engineer.