Read this: Times Radio launches and Twitch faces reckoning

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 2 very distinct look for you today one of the oldest media Brands in the world the Times is now running a radio station meanwhile one of the world's newest twitch the video game streaming platform owned by Amazon is facing massive crisis caused by old fashioned misogyny it's being likened to the record in the movie business face with me to let me introduce you to some of our guests six months ago Tim Level was editor of Emma Barnett show on BBC Radio 5 live today.

He's program director of x radio at Tim huge congratulations in launching a new radio station not an easy thing to do at all especially in a pandemic SA12 one critic Mark Lawson and anyone who cared what critics say really but he said x radio resemble most resembled a good quality karaoke BBC Radio 5 live.

Or as an insult I take that is very Mark Lawson was that mean good bad ugly.

I mean I thought he had a good sleep over or need some good things about us and I'm proud of my heritage on 5 live and if I brought some good things from 5ly to x radio.

I'm very pleased about that.

That's alright.

Thank you very much and come back to you shortly Miranda Sawyer is really care what critics say obviously being one.

What's your contacts Radio 5 Live it's a kind of like five lights really that's not to say I don't like it because I like five live and I think the presenters are pretty good on time.

So I do have to say thank you very much.

Love you guys.

We got a lot to get through today.

So let's meet the rest of our guests as we go along.

I'm going to start the show with the world of video game streaming and what is going on at twitch and I'm conscious that some of you going to be asking yourself.

Banging on about now, so let's just explain what it is and Frankie Ward is going to help us with that frankly is an esports house and streams on Twitch most days Frankie for Radio 4 listeners, who may not know what which is so I suppose think back to when you were young I made when your kids are younger and they would play video games and watch each other like a livestream castles for that.

So think about YouTube Even Netflix you have broadcasted like me we sit we play video games sometimes other things like chatting an audience and they can chat with real-time as well, so that's Twitter not sure.

How are you doing this for a very long time and I have sponsors as well, so that's one of the reasons.

I stream however people who are all time.

Very very of you and action.

This is you playing Counter-Strike with your team yesterday for contact plate, so don't throw anything let's just three up apps.

I'm going to watch Top mid-ocean cotton leggings in boiler.

I should have no idea what's going on there.

It seems incredibly at tactical what I did get Frankie was there is a huge community of people who on Twitch a very active in a very engaged which is now owned by Amazon advertisers are rushing to be associated with it and the biggest dream is paid huge sums of money.

Thank you.

Just talk about money.

How much can you average teacher earn in an 8-hour day?

Which is sort of like a donation service but some the biggest streamers.

I mean they're making ridiculous songs I would say because they paid by Twista which predicts so what do you mean? I can't really say over that a year in terms of a month and biggest streamers will be making probably like you have is not really so focus on your big fat.

It's also your sponsorship as well.

So it's not just being out with your sub numbers will drop.

What do you mean sorry? So when you have enough money you get a twitch partnership with you apply for in your successful and you get a sub button.

That is a subscription it doesn't mean that it just means they're paying to support the stream and something called a note to use on a stream which is kind of like just like emoticons really that you can use in making £250,000 a month and then making additional money sponsorship in the big ones might do some merchandise as well.

So this could make you very very rich guy playing computer games and getting people to watch let me bring in Cecilia d&a.

Stars you write for Wired magazine.

She's in New York thank you very much for your vagina to see I only got a lot on a big piece which was published on Friday and you've looked at the stories of dozens of women who say that some streamers on Twitch and we're not going to name names, but they have basically miss his power and celebrity to harass and in some cases abused women.

Can you talk through what you found?

Absolutely so over the last week.

There is very very powerful mum and the Twitter community of women came forward with allegations against twitch streamers ranging from unwanted touching to start it was like this ripple effect like a blood broke on Twitter where are female streamers offence Puzzles please very long stories about predation exploitation and it wasn't sure whether other popular figures associated with game development were called out which led to a professional repercussions by banning various stream is permanently from the platform that right.

Yeah, ok, no specifics of any case they say the statement we take appropriate action when we have evidence streamer has acted in violation of our community guidelines or terms of service back to see that.

Why why now? What's made this moment happened?

The truth is that this is a very sad truth edition on Twitch has been known for years.

It's something I've been reporting on for a long time.

I'm so I'm so happy that these three women were speaking out now and that there is a sort of watershed moment like I said that seemed to spur pressure on Twitch to do these switches and a typical work environment like you said keyboard spending 18 hours a day streaming on this platform assistant shop and it's non-stop.

So it's the same protections that somebody has who would work out of office building for simple to recognise environment.

What's your experience of being cranky working in this industry? I haven't been subject to the manipulation as described.

Sorry, I was in a position where if anyone did act in that way towards me I wasn't very very good position to shut that down and stop it from happening to anyone else is in terms of a culture around women streaming on Twitch it is very very problematic and it hasn't really been dealt with in a satisfactory way if you are a woman on both on the platform and off the platform on social media.

You were constantly subjected to derogatory language about yourself and it does like new language.

You turn everything monster describing his room which you are obviously seen as less.

There are always comments about what we can play it or not in the first place.

I often hear or read comments from people saying that women have it easier and because apparently we use our best to get money.

Constant thing I was actually affecting I believe the way they see themselves in the example and very conscious of the way that I dress and look on social media.

I think that it actually does a fact us know when you're off stream as well as mental health implications this has been likened to the the me too movement or moment.

I should say in the business, which one of the exposure of Harvey Weinstein and why is he had his very obviously awful, but obvious power to make or break careers.

He would let you know that you know that you'll never work in this town again type 5, where does the power dynamic within video game streaming come from?

I would say if there is a big streamer often people in their audience will be trying to swim as well.

So you have a simple thing which is connections so extremely well this party.

I'll introduce you to my sponsors.

I'll take you to me all my contacts at this convention and this is something that's been detailed as on the account and then what happens is that relationship could be over a few events it doesn't it might not happen in the weekend and actually from that sounds like it's been a prolonged period almost of grooming the woman becomes indebted to that biggest streamer and then and then as soon as turned around as well.

I've done all these things you say what you going to do for appalling to hear and screaming.

It's a relationship over time is there something particularly finishes then about this very very close relationship that you can build with your fans that I noticed was watching you.

Is the afternoon you're constantly interacting with fans you reply to messages and if you know if there was someone with grooming intentions.

Are you know that you know that to do the easy availability of people interact.

He might be seen as something that's exposing right and that definitely happens and of course because you're streaming and you're seeing the same people everyday.

I unsubscribe is very kind of them so for example.

I have some days a week where I play video games and those people but it's on mystory my very with play Stranger things on possible.

I have something called a discord chat server where I can also communicate with people there, but I don't let people come into my direct messages.

So I basically have quite a good wall.

Trust to be able to have access access to me and my moderation team so I have a team who are present in my chat quite a lot and they have what we call the banhammer.

Can actually filter out comments if someone is being inappropriate towards me on stream or inappropriate someone else in the chat.

We can actually remove that person either temporarily we can find them out.

We can have a conversation with them about their behaviour something I can do all weekend and completely Birmingham ok see also this week temporary bad Donald Trump's channel and the reason they give is that some of his rally speeches were posted on that we propose did they say the rules around hateful conduct at this is just a few months away from the presidential election that is a big decision for a platform to take it.

I think you probably saw that on the same day been I'm sorry but it's also associated with Donald Trump's twitch channel in the spirit of the me too movement on on Twitter make a lot of sense a channel that has been associated with perpetuating Haytor bigotry would have been taken down.

On the other hand you're right in the context of the upcoming election of strange by Donald Trump's which channel was not widely viewed and it wasn't a very very popular general.

Let me bring Chris stokel-walker is a freelance journalist and also the author of YouTubers Chris welcome again to the show they start work with what might be a rival to twitch to tencent the Chinese tech giant is an email Microsoft has announced that its shutting down mixer which was its attempts to take on Twitch what chance that a Chinese company can cannot switch off its perch.

This is the interesting question Imo which is that mixer back by Microsoft a huge player has lost out to twitch backed by Amazon

So the question is whether or not 1070s big enough and willing enough to throw lots of money at this fight for the video game streaming walls and I'm not 100% certain that they will win out because mixer try to do this and you talk to a Frankie about some of the big money involved.

We believe that one of the biggest names in video game streamer ninja moves from twitch which is the biggest platform to mixer which was very much and upstart owned by Microsoft last year for kind of tens of millions of dollars are in a contract exclusive you I don't know whether or not 10% is going to be willing to throw even that amount of money at this year formed in the surface excess.

Yeah, it was last week.

So Chris we mention the advertisers Boycott that Facebook is going to turn into a huge issue that you story for Facebook now YouTube and you book all the YouTubers are looking to avoid a repeat that there's this YouTuber called Shane Dawson

He's got 34 million subscribers billions billions of use and it was earlier reported to me a month but YouTube is just this week turning off.

Why and what does that say about internet found it so dispenser all the stars are so dispensable will it seems like all of the stars are aligning at the same time with Twitter and Facebook and YouTube so Shane Dawson as you say one of YouTube's biggest names in on the platform for a dozen years and over that time.

He's posted many problematic videos Blackface videos racial slurs joking about pedophilia and that was kind of accept, but we seen a change in the dynamic SIA an acknowledgement that things that we want maybe kind of pushed under the carpet should no longer exist and that has come up as a hedge against YouTube they have 15 billion dollars of ad revenue every single year coming in they had an issue in 2017 when all of the big advertisers pull.

From YouTube and so I think that probably there see what's happening to Facebook and staying there but for the grace of God go, I know when Jeremy Clarkson leave the BBC has used a 15 billion of income YouTube every single year when Shane Dawson these is not that much just move on this is not some other people who can who can bring those sorts of that sort of how does a brief mention about YouTube you're writing a book about TiK ToK TiK ToK another huge platform of course this week has been dragged into the tomorrow might seem scary border between India and China is that was briefly a taste of things to come as media companies are getting dragged into geopolitics platform 660 million downloads of talking into a loan and US national Security investigation against its proposed ties to China in the US so I think that we seeing big issues here and yeah, we know.

Taxis power and we want to come to clamp down on that Chris it's always good to be true that Chris stokel-walker author of YouTubers Frankie Ward really good to speak to you as well, and thank you for your time also Cecilia Garcia from wide in New York what is the opposite of TiK ToK and which and all the rest of it, how about a bit of this morning and welcome to a new voice in British Radio 6? I'm as Mummy and this is the first ever x Radio breakfast.

Thank you for your company that sells x radio and the start of a new chapter in Rupert Murdoch's Media Adventures in the you can hear on digital radio and online among its distance this week has been around a soil really pretty of the Observer and Tim level with the top of the show is program director at times radio Tim what's a gap in the market for a warm intelligence speech that goes through the day through the night which covers news in an intelligent and thought-provoking way and this radio station.

I'm really I'm on one now.

Thank you for inviting me but I think there's there isn't one station that does this blend that we are archived distilling of of inter and well-informed and open-minded news and conversations because Radio 4 goes off outside of the main news programmes goes off into lots of magazine programme comedy drama about gardening that sort of thing where is where is will be live news based conversation right through the day so we people between 10 and 13.

He's doing really kind of politics amazing discussion as a brilliant half hour this morning with Julia Gillard and helle thorning-schmidt at talking about what it's like first female world leaders and then we went into a live coverage of pmq that sort of thing isn't available and that your pitch their which is sent.

Call me welcoming is just essentially euphemism for soft and stopping a Monday breakfast slot which one with the radiator the X resource about the fact that Boris Johnson sacked as editor of the times for you then had Boris Johnson have pasta, but he wasn't asked about that very thing that's just journalistic cowardice is it I think you are so Prime Minister about the fact that he was sacked from the times on the day.

You've got the prime minister on day one of the launch of the fantastic question to ask is it and what we want to know how is lockdown how effective lockdown going to get and how is it going to be paid for that is roll now.

We ask that he is running our country and people want to know what his what his plans are to deal with that would have loved to have heard that would have loved to hear that question and that was just ringing around the post next day.

You work with Emma Barnett as of the exceptionally talented enable the approach her.

We've got a great schedule.

Brilliant present that's an interesting answer to a question, I didn't ask what about ever born if you approach her.

It's a great question and I was Catherine email saying she likes the fact that she's hearing on time for you intelligent people talking to each other and not haranguing me your Friday this is a news program Miranda sings so we heard a picture about what gap in the market.

Is is Tim levels analysis right.

I think it was slightly pictures something to take away from Radio 4 and it is much more 5 live because Radio 4 has built programs.

Until 1 in the morning when some of the podcast the tires make as well what I think is missing from x radio is the listeners it's a new radio station, but I'm so therefore you can't actually rely on their being loads of listeners getting in contact.

There's no phone number given out.

It's just that you can text.

You can't retrieve an email but what I feel that is missing from this news based.

Chat is what the listeners think because you have that on 5 live on LBC talk radio has it and I feel that this just a little that means everything feels a little bit like you're being broadcast at these days in order to make that kind of radio station really come alive.

You need to have contribution solicitors.

Just phoning in occasionally discussion ends.

Wickes Exeter to Torpoint if you would ask me and I had to my mind it should say what one thing would you like to do it differently? I'm going to say that we haven't really got it.

We've gone are very smoothly and pleased with the quality of the interviews and discussions, but I would like to get more listeners on there and people can text that they can Mail be complete as we would like to start hearing people's experiences can be luminate the discussions on the topic so I think that I think that's right.

I think to be fair with a two-and-a-half days in and you know I think we've done something that you are working with things.

I'm just making that that interaction work a bit better and of course.

It's not easing a pandemic and as I said at the top of shades of huge congratulations.

We getting a radio station going in a during a pandemic movie courses already has launched another pandemic century.

Go how obvious will it be two listeners that x radio exists as a marketing exercise for the times?

Adverts but ultimately the business case a business proposition is that you're meant to encourage you to take out a subscription to The Times newspaper.

That's right to full business case positive about there's no brakes, but shows can be sponsored as that's the one for the revenue stream in the other is that we hope to we know that lots of people like reading the Times and Sunday times, but you know the olden days people in their 40s 50s would have bought more papers print papers and they do so digital subscriptions are unattractive thing and we would like more people to take prescription so already you loved her present actually say this is how you can take out a digital subscription.

We're not ashamed of that that's part of you want.

This is about the growing the X brand in the same way that the BBC has a website and radio and TV the time has a newspaper and website now radio station.

What's Rebekah Brooks ask you to deliver in year one.

Simple internal listen to target to and comfortable with and some monthly targets are uncomfortable with and I feel like we've had a good start to feel a bit of we've already looked at her online listing numbers are very encouraging and and we got a I think a lot and I know she she's actually excited about time and is back in what we doing is your budget under 10 million.

Yes, ok then? What do you make the business case we tend to be very clear that the business case of the time it's an extension of times during.

What do you make that commercial argument? I work for not the times.

I won't forward Observer mostly there different ways of attracting readers especially in these difficult times during pandemics are people really aren't spending money on physical products paper.

I was thinking when you were doing interviews around twitch that everyone whether you're a YouTuber 8 which are all indeed.

Just kind of the times you have to have all blacks covered you have a radio station has a podcast with the times.

Have you have to have brilliant economist you have to have a great time too and the actually now.

They don't really care about the platform.

So you know that's that's just the way to bring people in and radio which one is dead people can get it on various forms of Alexa they can get it on their phones and it's another way of saying I completely understand why they are talking to each other and I know I don't know why did you did you set out in our services in a complementary way, did you say that to sound conventional to the sound of unsurprising because you could have done it to be anything you could have you know you don't have to have news bulletins.

Data studio discussions little Tingles we trying to sound to The Familiar and unoriginal is it worth from day one in terms of the structural what you're doing a degree.

Yes, I wanted it to be reassuring I feel straight away that they can have a home here and so we doing some new things at pmq is slightly different take on that we should have paws B&Q that they haven't we go through it, but I wanted to come to environment environment where they feel at home and if that again looking at the emails coming in at people can contact this mentioned earlier and the emails coming in one person on day one said it feels very familiar and I took that as a compliment but I would like to still to do things that are created by different you know we are we don't want to repeat.

What's out there.

This is about choice about giving listeners.

Are the choices using sand and I'd like to keep experimenting about the word the wireless group strategy the parent company of course being used UK run by Rebekah Brooks only talkSPORT radio Virgin Radio

Radio market study and I know you make a living talk about this the power of it, but it's certainly very competitive is it sufficiently distinct these different wireless group products because they are all slightly versions of stuff that we've got already.

So you could say that you know talk radio is a version of LBC you could say that timetrader is a version of five live you could say the radio too but they all have you know that has a slightly distinct feel talk radio is different as soon as it's done that it's different I suppose it's in the end that the example of everybody finding their own little niche.

Don't they wouldn't you know you can survive with actually hardcore of listeners or followers whatever you do and they're very distinct and offer with might seem similar to other places, but I think they'll find a way.

Annoying every time I had to quickly actually any chance to find Test cricket on x radio.

I'm not like cabbage and it's a long test for a long time.

Thank you very much for your time very busy week and also Miranda Sawyer who is the radio critic of the Observer and thank you.

All.

I guess who discuss discuss twitch earlier as well.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

Thank you for listening.