Read this: Has No 10 called time on media scrutiny?

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 last week I asked what will the media talk about now that it's favourite subject of brexit is got into son done and dusted well.

We not had long to wait to find out because the answer is itself on Friday broadcasters and news agencies announced that they were boycotting Boris Johnson brexit night address to the nation because he recorded it himself on Monday a group of Westminster journeys made themselves a story when they walked out of the Downing Street breathing in protest at the fact that not all of them were being invited in the morning because the culture such as announced a consultation on where the non-payment of the TV licence fee should cease to be a crime offence.

It's a start of a wart on the BBC some people cry.

Maybe I'm being unfair because these are all the topics of discussion on today's edition of the

And Channel 4 news for Mail Plus which is the daily mails digital subscription product Michael at welcome.

You weren't considered a career politician.

Did you think you'll be working for the parent company the Daily Mail what is a long time since I thought of being a politician.

No, I mean I'm having a very exciting time on a new venture making films of them once a week.

Spend a couple of days making a film Ireland Monday and Tuesday this week in the elections goodness knows what I'll be doing next week as well.

I'm glad I did I did I did I did I needed a new new Horizon really a new activity.

It means I've been able to write a book.

It's wondering and yeah, so that's taking up at half the time and then 2 days a week doing Mail Plus and it's rejuvenated me really I'm glad it.

Have you got any diesel stories in the throat when you want to tell us now.

What's the point of the story is the Channel 4 news? I wish I hadn't done now because I would like to inform you.

Don't worry.

I have J Davies agencies their director of news photography for Europe the Middle East and Africa actually do what is involve I tell photographers to go and take interesting pictures while I said I'm I could do that, but it's an essential part of what makes a great photo image that distills perhaps a complicated issue down to the Central elements the photograph is a prude instrument for communication about when executed well.

I think it has a lot of impact in this release.

What's the date of the right now? I'm on journalism improving in part because of improved technology and in terms of the appreciation for narrative photography.

It's all because there are a few other publications that devote themselves to the photo essay than there used to be but I think there's still plenty of appetite for good photography as we see and social media of course everyone can't get enough of images fantastic cameras in there in the in the super computers in their pocket.

Yeah.

We take advantage of the two of us to highlight the work of art photographers as it is for professional photographers but also it means that everyone encounters a fire is of symmetry on a daily basis and maybe a devalued the overall impact of an individual for the top of the breakthrough, but stand-ups the game for everybody very good to see you Clare and is here Claire of course is the founder of her eponymous consultancy Enders analysis and big media companies pay hello to Mum

She's giving it to the movie show for free and clear the show with can you give a company the most of the media completely neglected, but which will be talking about in 3 years time.

No because there is so much Media there's so much conversation and because they are so much innovation in the UK is known almost immediately can I just correct you we don't do consultancy we do research for your analysis, is it worth? It's a bit independent research of course of course of course was this morning and the public consultation on where the non-payment of the TV licence fee should remain at a criminal offence as it stands as if you watch TV live on record it or use the BBC iPlayer and you don't have a TV licence ultimately you could go to prison.

I just before I get your take on that speak clearly sit here Berry's will because she says that needs to change.

This is a very important institution for this country but also internationally.

If you have to criminalize the the non-payment of the final associated with a TV licence evasion just an order for the BBC to have money for program.

I think that's a long debate to be had at the wrong balance to be stuck.

There is a court of law debate.

We had about BBC funding overall that give the money for programming and that's what you want to be happening to in due course Baroness Morgan speech.

Are you in the front room? What do you make it? I was ambivalent about it.

I was I was disappointed that Baroness Morgan continue to believe that the BBC have been given the money to pay for the older life before I have millions over 75s.

I was on the other hand, please see her say positive things about the BBC's role in the world and indeed its global role.

I was in fact even more, please see her Rockaway a question on whether impartiality was in the mix, but she was announcing a major program of constant enquiry and exam.

Action of the BBC's model of many elements of art activities over the next 4 years and I felt my heart sink you are the question I trust you ask a question about the issue of time after her speech and balance was started around.

Thank you for it which is often a sign that she didn't appreciate it wasn't give you an answer.

I didn't think you got much on so what was that? I didn't I didn't I didn't get an answer to that question so it's a very technical but very important question on money so in effect what he was saying was that the intention was to decriminalize if it was going to happen in 19-in 22 and that the new licence fee settlement which will also fall in in 22 that will take account of of evasion of estimates of evasion of some kind of cushion for the BBC so that it would continue to have enough money to

Programming the trouble was I pointed out to her that if you did criminalise in 22 you're not really going to know the scale of a virgin until at least 20 to let alone 23 if we expect massive amount of evasion to start from 2020 as soon as for 1/2 million households have never paid the licence to get a letter to pay that I think the newspapers certainly intend to an incredible amount of frenzy into these proceedings, so I think it will start very quickly so but what I was actually saying to her.

You won't actually know when you're discussing the settlement for the BBC Weather the who is 250/300 490 very very significant in particular the 2015 Perry report was a very exhaustive review of all of this issue in particular.

He said that the amount of evasion that would be stimulated would be around 209 is going to be higher than that in addition.

He concluded that the detriment.

All the other licence fee payers the 26 million day before I have known that will come down the pipes over 30 minutes, but the detriment to all the people were left pain lower quality of services and also from being the people who is the smartest in the system which isn't at the mugs which isn't a pleasant place to be so he actually look at all these issues very exhausted and very long were the current.

It was found that should say is an independent report by QC one of the company to get another mentions in the way.

We talk talk about anything and I did have a preview of the speech in The Drought was Netflix lots of people can use a Netflix professional thing to do but the price is a bit 02063 Netflix has been into pounds and get in contact with that kind of finance to moving to a Netflix subscription service with a take a long time to be a transition period and be someone would have to fund the Debt which allows you to invest in programmes on Netflix county does.

Absolutely right these are incomparable things everyday YouTube and other platforms also mention it gets uploaded the equivalent of all the BBC material that the BBC producers in 24-hours within and the factors that are incomparable things Netflix is a platform not a series of services.

It doesn't do radio doesn't do news.

There's no elements that are required of it is not regulated under UK law it has a completely different model which is captured in essence by the availability of Us Capital markets money gets that what you just explain they don't because it is very easy and I have been made it Amazon this country since 1984 and before Netflix came along the BBC was was was beat up by HP and then after that it was beat up by the fashion of British politicians for beating up our institutions with external phenomena.

I have to stay in the long time that has been happening as only made us a strong.

And more vibrant cultural environment so I welcome all of this phase of questioning but the key point is this is that the BBC has a completely different set of responsibilities.

It has a similar purpose Netflix does not have a Civic purpose the BBC's universal the BBC reaches 91% of the population every week.

It has radio services online services which are consumed by 409 people is a completely different because they may end up by using it and because they still do use it the fact is that it is not my fault or yours at the age restrictions on Netflix on YouTube are the age of 13, but that hasn't stopped over 60% of people under the age of 13 of making those their primary Choices That is a different environment where 67 million people and what the 14-year olds do is not actually going to define the word for years of 50 years Israel's do it so therefore the scheme in which there is in fact a group of people who never want to pay the licence fee will that that is?

The way so if we have to go to a completely different technical platform in order to enable that so do you think that I just want to say one thing was just so important to understand and I say this as someone who is this wonderful country in an ex American less than substantially less than 1% of what is on all the BBC material that I've ever seen is non-british substantially less than 1% of everything on it on YouTube is British is a completely different and incomparable phenomena to add to the choice of the UK as a wonderful thing to detract from the choices that we have had for almost 100 years or 20 years old is a loss for us of our Fabric of our culture is Ronaldo next to you in for a cup of tea and said hi Claire I'm I'm going to number 10.

I need to pitch a new model to them you can be viable for the next 30 years.

What's your address and what that model should be it would be to continue with the existing model because we're washing the current political climate is be honest.

Is it going to get through number turns out?

I have lived through the 1985 extravaganza 909299 2010 to 2015 and now every time there is a majority.

There is a feeding frenzy around the BBC and there is an effort to destroy it.

I have seen this over again.

This one is the worst I've ever seen but I do not believe that when people actually understands the BBC in the regions in radio in people's real lives apologies and actually shut down any significant element that people forget the range of activity that the BBC is involved in and I suspect that when people are listening to local radio BBC local radio or even national radio or looking at online stuff.

They don't even think about the fact it is you say it's all paid for by the licence fee but I one thing I would add to this discussion is it's not just a conservative problem over the last 10 years this issue has been around the Hulk

Equalization is the number of Labour MPs have also been arguing this because they say look it's our constituents who hit by this and who are threatened with supreme sanctions ultimately the prospect of strictly speaking people are not jail for not paying the licence fee there jail for not obeying a court order or the fun for not paying the fine and the numbers are actually end up going to do a very small but it isn't just the Conservatives think it has involved labour politicians and listen to their mid-20s and a bit like you consume huge range of things online and they know what they're paying for their and they like paying for them open Spotify and Netflix subscribers YouTube and all the rest of it and they find the idea of paying £157 because it happened to stream 2 live tennis on Amazon Prime Amazon Prime very hard to swallow.

We all end up paying for that.

But may not directly benefit people have not children who end up paying for the education system we wouldn't say well.

They are allowed to opt out because you haven't got any kids and the reason why is a simple because the overall benefit of a society where people are educated and people who have a television and radio service and an online service which does brilliant journalism and journalism than almost all of its competitors is of a general benefit Society even though the immediate benefit to those young people might not be obvious and it may be that it becomes more benefit as they get older which is the largest news source on Facebook is Channel 4 news.

There are people who will never turn on Channel 4 news for actually consuming as their chief TV news on Facebook in this country and that is a whole different ballgame.

So all of these phenomena need to spread and go and occupy every single.

What are the reviews and if you actually looked at the Trial Channel 4 news in particular? You would see that it actually reaches many many parts are invisible to borrow the convention part of me.

You have been at the moment.

Are you may have heard about the lobby walk out on Monday this is Westminster report is boycotting a Downing Street briefing when it transpires it wasn't open to all of them and you might be across the over Boris Johnson address to the nation that he released on Friday night traditionally Downing Street speech is like this are recorded by one of the big broadcasters citn sky who don't share the footage not this time down distributed it directly through social media and broadcasting said this undermined independent journalism, but what you might not know about is another issue around photographs.

Would you send you something that you J Davies from getting to know all about you annoyed about well at the moment specifically there are some instances where we've asked for access and we being a pool of depression.

Downing Street have asked for access to Boris Johnson conducting official business specifically signing the withdrawal agreement Bill and then recording that broadcast and then when you had a gathering in a bottle of banging of the gun for the 11 deadline.

We ask for access in work tonight without explanation where we have received access to similar events in the past and instead Downing Street decided to distribute just hand out images from their newly hired staff photographer and I don't object in principle to demonstrate having a staff photographer is a common and conditioning in the US white house, but they have to understand.

It's not in lieu of independent press coverage and at the moment.

I'm getting a suspicion that it's creeping into an undermining our success of independent press outlets.

Why should you be given access because we are reliable and consistent trusted members of The Independent press and environments.

They are space restrictions.

Security restrictions and you need certain credentials and you need to adhere to a polling system to exist in confined spaces and so we have a rotation of the participating agencies tries to ensure equitable distribution and also these agencies have a vast reach so once we are another agency getting create this material.

It does reach a vast audience but also important is produced by independent outlet and a government employee been in touch with newspaper editors about the use of these photos and as have other agencies conveyed that when it's already used the government handouts.

They are undermining our ability to get access to these access to these important events and I think it's kind of an unfortunate symbiosis where there are people using government handouts and the government has less of an interest in inviting press to cover them photographers have done differently to the reduced reduced by the in-house stylist photographer.

When all over the papers, I look at just for you came on here perfectly reasonable.

I think sometimes you can get a picture of that looks to the naked eye very very similar to the one created by the staff photographer, but what matters is the province and do you trust that person objectively representative was happening in that room and if you were employed by the government you have a set of interests exactly Michael there's a question about how the media was being manipulated by politicians you saw that first-hand when your current election when you cut the Tory candidates for Astra Estate doorstep.

Yes, which was very she wasn't the favourite when when we do that and yes, I'll be staged in your words.

We caught him on the telephone setting up a voter for him to meet on the doorstep and it.

22oz if it was a sort of random knocking on the door and it turned out to be his great mate at the grammar of TV shows and some encouraging to do that.

I know and over the years.

I think there has been a conspiracy between the the journalists and politicians and my attitude has always been so not not get involved in those kind of conspiracies where I can possibly help it and to expose them if I spot them which we needed in that case because it was inadvertently.

I think recorded him when he became the editor of The New York Times was that where you are now.

Just a few weeks ago.

He make it he doesn't socialise with you want to be very much and outside is that your approach? Are you someone who doesn't you don't go to know pubs in Westminster and try and get the inside skinny what's going on? I just had lunch with them and who is Craig mackinlay is the Conservative MP for South Lanarkshire lunch and just to catch up on all times and I'll admit I picked up the mail did not pick up but the

Short you never know but you can't say I'm not going to socialise at all with members of Parliament but I do try and keep my distance.

I think there are some different types of MPs in cabinet ministers round to their homes and they operate that way and then very successful at it too.

I'm my own view is that you should try and keep a certain distance and I'm more comfortable that and the and then it's easier if you publish broadcast something that isn't to their liking the official spokesman said last week on the broadcasters complaints about the prime minister's speech as the quote the address of the nation will be available to all including all TV broadcasters for those who want to watch it on the news as well as being streamed on social media and that will allow everyone to hear directly from the p.m.

At this historic moment where the BBC and ITV wrong not to run it on great night.

I think they probably were actually this is not the first time.

This is a curd and in fact Jeremy Corbyn presented this kind of issue.

Can you few years ago and he started putting out statements on social media because he didn't like doing stuff for the BBC or iTV and they were the sort of statements that you would normally expect them to other people come along and ask questions now what Boris Johnson did on Friday night was more akin to the prime ministerial broadcast of the nation that we always used to see in the 60s and the sun is not the sort of event where they would have been questioned so whether it was wrong.

I mean eventually broadcasters are going to use that material simply because it's history and eventually they going to be using the photographers that would take photographs that were taken of newspapers going to be using the photographs taken by the official photographer.

It's very difficult please personally I think they're a big problems for the relationship between broadcasters and and politicians and these that well.

I think there is a climate in many government departments right now and if this has been a problem for several years where.

Civil service press officers are frightened to say anything helpful or interesting to journalists to ring up because they're terrified that they may put a foot wrong and incurred the Wrath of their minister for more likely the special advisers who worked for the mystery boxes and therefore the press officers in some departments become pretty useless and it's a bit of a waste of time but now that timer is terribly unhealthy and wasteful money.

I've never seen quite the strong those that we've seen in the last few days, so I do not remember time when the lobby journalists were divided between the wheat and the chaff and the inner and the outer and I've been to meet Alice in this country since 1984 said that's quite a long time so I do think that in the six months we have seen an outbreak of aggression from number 10 on all the news broadcasters no matter who they are we seeing sky ITV channel 4 repeatedly.

BBC I get there I think this is a general climate in which there is a Desire for the populist government here to take control of the agenda to shove was a fact-based evidence-based people out of the way and try to establish indirect and unmediated and actually un editorialise kind of thing in order to dominate their opinions and obviously the number 10 has a very feeble grasp on facts and on evidence and therefore this is a very convenient strategy to do alcoholics Shake It Off could use it as a thought about what happened when he became Prime Minister in Italy Land Grab on the Rye so this is a very familiar set of phenomena.

We've seen at even with Mussolini in the past this very unpleasant and inappropriate way to treat the world's finest Media I mean I think one of the work.

The last when is the new Labour leader uses exactly exactly the reason why the government the Conservatives have been able to do they send them a lot of this happened on the Theresa may as well is because Jeremy Corbyn was also boycotting almost boycotting mainstream media and therefore there wasn't really any competition if Keir starmer or Lisa Nandy are elected Labour leader.

They will be doing lots of Regular interviews with the BBC and ITV and when the government gets into trouble and losing popularity.

They will head feel obliged to ease the boycott on the yes, but here in the UK channel 4 on the BBC are government corporate ultimately controlled by the government in there is an exaggeration to say that ultimately controlled by the government the channel for their licence comes up at the end of 2024.

I'm sorry all this Public Service Broadcasting system is going to be controlled by the government that makes it sound like the prime minister of primers can bring up and is the USA

Donald Trump can call the New York Times the daily New York Times Angeles blue in the face in the county where the business the revenue or any licensee cannot affect them nor can the effects CNN so all I'm saying is the volume up position because of these two governments corporations.

What can you do to actually make Getty inject get into the premises attention if technology is allowed politicians to do without the mediation of the genus.

What can you do? What can watch your solution present and as many places as possible and demand access.

I think you're not putting back the Genie in the bottle of politicians trying to reach out directly to their constituents and a broad audience through social media and it's not a phenomenon that you need to conservative or liberal politicians Obama was well practiced in that in the US they will reach out directly using the technology of the day what independent news outlets can do is to also insert themselves in their discussion by making really compelling content whether it's radio television still or moving photographs.

And have you refused to distribute any pictures that were given to you because you felt the know the way in which a given to you was undermines your credibility as a journalist images from government bodies around and we typically decline to distribute and it's really only and unique situations where there is not comparable press photographs of ARY News newsworthy event and specifically with they did provide handle images from some of these recent events that we were excluded from and we refuse to distribute damp other it's not really much of a victory because publications.

Just go grab them from footer, but I was unsuccessful the band pictures of George Osborne in hi-vis jacket.

Just as much as I do enjoy not working regulations.

I still bye bye.

I'm in front of the election when I was making a film every day you go to a constituency the Ofcom rules say you've got to do all the main parties and I can say

In this consistency the Liberal Democrats or whoever are irrelevant.

I'm not going to do them, but I think we have to be careful on my plus about what why how we behave and I will be locked up to just discard doesn't have been looking to discover throw away all the afternoon because I think there's a lot of sense and a lot of eventually become a kind of Fox News here conservative broadcast network not far as I'm aware.

It's only has it is not political at the moment and I am there.

I hope that it is it is not the British version of the time.

Do you think there's going to get much more opinionated news quite soon on our broadcast Airways so short is annoying we could go on and on but that is it for today my thanks to Michael J Davies of Getty Images of course Claire Enders of Enders analysis we are back.

Next week, I've just got time to tell you that you should have caused please do me the honour of subscribing to all of us to the media Show podcast on BBC sounds to certain me to show and hits.