Read this: Media Masters - David Aaronovitch

Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game Mr presented David aronovitch starting his career in the 1980s as a producer he moved to print journalism in 1995 as an independent and now a columnist for the times.

He has since written for many major UK newspapers and more numerous accolades and well priced for Political journalism his television work includes the TV documentary series The blazers for BBC1 and regular appearances on shows such as Newsnight the Andrew Marr Show and Have I Got News For You he's also written three books including a personal Memoir David thank you for joining me you're welcome you describe yourself as a radical moderate on your x graffiti.

Is that a popular position in this area of PlayStation the first thing is I describe myself something to say to you.

We need an encapsulation of your views in about kind of you 8 words.

What's the best UK

It's a bit like what's your favourite movie your flat and you start looking around or what genre should I go for what period should I go for a song if I could conceivably call myself politically but I suppose I mean I just like the term centrist.

I don't really like the term moderate very much.

I mean I'm quite an eclectic hold of opinions some until I get my people on the right of politics of being a polling left winger look at your views about Europe look at your views about immigration.

Look at your brother and an appalling right-wing look after all you are St Jeremy look how you're in favour of intervention around the world at liberal interventionism and so on at look how you're not in favour of labor's expenditure plans.

I have written about that.

Yeah by the way that you can presume that I'm not going to be in all of them in the end.

I just can't come down.

What's the nearest encapsulation of the same I can I can possibly get to the

Series of views which seem to me to be have a big relationship with the views that I help and I was younger, but I'm not exactly the same in or in all points of them and what people want to do continuously as I cannot create a journey for you with a narrative are which they can easily understand and which allow some kind of stick you in a cataract as I do the same to other people so I'm so used to be on the left or right journey, but certain things like I've been living on immigration.

You know the values of one or two things that have changed for me recently which have taken me bit by surprise is I think I've learnt something during this whole last horrible 5-years about the you of institutions that has a young person.

I will just a little bit so funny.

We are so useless you know stupid judges stupid Parliament etc, etc.

I gradually come to realise that institutions that have stood the test of time and to a large extent had a malleable and a responsible not over responsive and always have a kind of sense of themselves are incredibly valuable.

Take a huge amount of time to construct can in the wrong circumstances take no time at all to destroy and then you're left with rubble and I don't think I thought that at 19th Republican I really want an elected head of state, but what really undermines my argument is the pragmatic element is there between does a reasonably good job if it ain't broke don't fix it and you know there are plenty you.

No problems to solve so that in the centre and becoming a can of closet monarchist even though I still maintain that got Republic and blood in step ahead of your step behind depending which way you want to look at it because if you can begin to interrogate.

Why it is that the thing works then that gives you some kind of idea about it.

Relationship of an institution to people and the notion of legitimacy the Queen the monarch actually literally cannot do anything that we were discovered during the entire Boris Johnson progression crisis that actually all the monitor can do is what the prime minister not even par what the prime minister tells him or her to do it so your Republican myrepublic and neither Here nor There Will be really talking about is whether we then voting for a president who has actually separate colours in some way from the prime minister at the moment as I am still a closet Republican but I think the garden turned over Prince Charles and did the Eiffel wine to the High cotton got his letters.

He just struck me as someone might write to the local paper and the responses from the ministers was basically like thank you.

Prince Charles manages to get people to change their important, is it and you couldn't really locate anything anybody and changed as a result and it was quite obvious that their responses were the name would have been at least more immediate than they would have been to a member of the public but that same colour slightly paint quality, but remember the normally pre agree with most of the things you said before you send them as you said before we started this recording is something that would worry you as a columnist.

I asked you that before going to my anecdotal.

How do you spell readers to engage with you? Is it that you want me to pre disagree with you and then one overall challenge if you had an ideal encounter with the reader that reader would say I sometimes agree with you.

I sometimes disagree with you.

I'm sometimes Persuaded by you and sometimes not Persuaded by you but I tell you what I always think you write beautiful.

I have saved it isn't really such a person.

I mean I think I must admit one person who said the entire it in the right people have to say thank God you say the things you said they said just what I think you know you have a way with words what I think.

I'm not gonna you have to appreciate it and then he's not going to like that and so on but I would rather have the person who said I started off not agree with you, but I think by the time the end.

I think you more or less persuading me the quality of the thinking of got the might have gone on there is enjoyable to me.

I mean I think a column should be one which starts in one place and finishes them in another exactly the same way as a finishes at the same as they started to like a drama where there's no character development.

They just remained the same right the way through and what's the point of that who's learnt anything from that the writer has a very much because they never.

Views and so yes, they can say at the end.

I agree with all this I agree with it at the end as much as I'd agree with it at the Beginning you're interested in learning anything nothing's happened.

It's dead drama.

See you arguing with us on Twitter quite a lot and it's saying once he's probably at the BBC where is admirable that way you take people to task but part of me thinks why do you bother it's all research research sometimes somebody that I probably will get into a discussion with people's century ago colour is actually engaged and I want to put you straight.

There is a bit of that, but there's a part of it that wants to see where this goes what the line of argument will be and what kind of connections will be one of the main thing for me quite useful for is connecting the dots app on various.

So that coherent ideology as can be spotted the actually the people hold them barely even though they've got themselves.

You can see them and you can see what the trends are and you can where they came from where it's all going so part of me.

Just a little bit.

I'm fine in my in my tweets.

They're not exactly people straight then what kind of weird teasing out there next position as well, so that we can kind of create if you like we can map their ideological DNA more interesting than I should because there are other things to do and I should be doing them.

I mean many years ago now you brought out voodoo Histories that you book about the however on things to do and the lighting was magisterial but I was reminded of it a few months ago when my nieces 15 confidently said it a family barbecue that the moon landings were faked and I said no they weren't.

Interesting to see what is a big mirror on the moon for one thing that you can buy for £100 lazer offer from Argos and Bouncy of yourself, so the position of all from we did land on the moon, but the moon landing footage fake by Stanley Kubrick and interesting the shifting Sands that it's his mother conspiratorial lens through which they they look at the world happened upon a personal website YouTube video this and then the people who watch this ridiculous conspiracy with you.

Also watch this video that have reinforced a view that the schools and I suppose I'd moderately prefer the moon landings the illuminati illuminati really is a crazy idea was the moon landings at least purports to have some kind of scientific basis, although as you.

It's quite easily with her.

She back down very very easily.

It wouldn't take very much for getting the back down from the rest of them either all you need is that kind of that website the show to the explanation of this is not the true, but there is a out a false flag waving in the wind and it's not true about the Shadows and it's not and all that kind of stuff.

You know which is going to be true about the about the and then finally you have to tell her you have to tell her anyway.

This was all a movie that it was cold and Capricorn 9 about people going to go on Mars of course.

I couldn't actually get there so what they do was go fight that they had to put these astronauts in the desert is astronauts on there put them in the desert and supposed to be on Mars with the idea that they're going to be held to a trip is going to be over at low cost and what kind of work out but that's going to be rather tricky actually if there is a letter because we only basis on which it was possible as if they are absolutely stunning.

Do they try to escape? What is certain death etc? And I think that I think at the end one of them actually does I mean I can't quite remember but it's quite clearly this film the huge flaw in anything to do with this which is you have to have thousands and thousands and thousands of people silenced for ever and it's not possible, but it's the advantage that the CID detective investigating armed Robbers if you get three legs that have robbed the bank one of them ultimately going to cough on one of them might even have a bit of pillow top five years later to to someone but ultimately the truth will out because if you get more than a conservative two people it's going to leak but there is an exception to this which family which is Bletchley Park but that is a context within which everybody knew what their role was and so on it's a rare.

It's a rare exception.

Is there any truth to the old adage that you can't reason someone out of a position that they're not reason themselves into this is one of these.

Falls into this kind of hole bracket of discussions about whether or not everybody takes the blinds bit of notice of anything anybody says in that they agree with him in the first place and the money pessimistic view is that we pick a side and then we will do whatever that side tells us to do and wherever it including room prepared to believe any ridiculous thing it says I'm being prepared to disability any sensible thing that the other side says they're not apply to you know the carbonates and the trumpets what problems can a confirmation bias on and you'd say that trump was huge and actually something else seems to happen which is the People's perception of what's right and wrong actually can go through drum stick shift according to the side effects so you can see Republic and saying things like this isn't proof that trump.

Do that's why I said that there is proof that it's not in.

Evangelical Christians support him even though he had an affair with a porn actress after we got married and then it's not even denied.

Yeah, I think actually most evangelical Christians do that turns out has my Cycle Analyst said the bigger the front the bigger the back about you hear some kind of Republican senator going on and on about homosexuality profound and almost existential question is it what's the point? Yeah? That is that is often think that to yourself.

Are you simply and it and that's why at the base of it the only Colin that I think is good is one but I think it's good.

It's nice of you think it's good.

It's not great if you think it's dreadful but the person I'm

Have I got as close to the thing I want to say about something and I think is true about something as I possibly can and done it and elegant way home.

Hopefully with at least a couple of love.

You know because we need a bit of incongruous and often sometimes ridiculous and it does in another sense of the ridiculous import but that ultimately is it is also present at the briefing room for for Radio 4 in which we have no politicians and we have no people who are parti pris, but we just have to keep us close as possible to be an expert about a particular area for 28 minutes.

We find out about that particular area.

I don't have an opinion in the whole thing that's a relief.

I can just be curious wonder about this wonder about that.

I can even come to conclusions based on what they told me that don't really sit with what I

Written on the same subjects six months before and it is a bit of a relief and supposing that unlike it is but there are people out there.

Who do you think will be shaped for why by what they discovered to be true about it? I'll give you an example because it applies to me so during the height again of this program.

We did a special programme on the constitution Alison people got any interest in the constitution you have British constitution lives at school was the thing that boys do if they couldn't do anything else about the most boring person in the entire school program.

Cost of people with really kind of missing that I gone into it with the usual kind of I don't know it's out of radical presupposition that different would be better.

I it will be better.

Have a written constitution can write it all down by the end of the program.

They pretty much convinced me that that was not going to be the best thing to do for all kinds of all kinds of reasons.

Kinds of knots you know like like for example Supreme Court the US constantly trying to interpret the meaning of a single word written 200 years ago that kind of thing that's absolutely that kind of thing and some of these things I haven't really thought before and I just called you.

No I mean in my past.

I have been very much in favour of a written constitution.

I thought that the membership of parties voting for their leaders were imperial system to the members of Parliament doing well.

That doesn't look quite so clever now in the age of social media in giving people the right to vote for 3 quid and you have to pay £100 and I thought that was an urban myth or no.

I've got a quite a few of them some of them in the media, which I don't want to break their confidence.

Definitely deserve to be broken ok, so so randoms 11 protein in political parties, so actually there is a big problem with that but you know what maybe I go outside for primary is now and has always in favour of Green Primary School having a strong government we had to make a class-based parties from the 50s onwards we don't have the same class structure.

We don't have the same affiliation.

We don't have the same generation history language and no such connection with political parties automatically they not going to say that way cos my father did my grandfather did his grandfather.

The big issues of the day now don't cut across political parties having their labour brexiteers in the Tory remainers actually a bit but which is the people and much more like to have a kind of portfolio political approach a lot of people join the Labour Party and the Corbyn simply because they had the kind of notion of what I call being was which is a sort of your is a bit like having a Scarecrow in the corner of your field you dress up in the clothes that you want you lovelies no grandpa.

No notice at all about what he really was always history was or anything like that and what was funny about that was impossible to tell somebody once they had taken that trip once I had dropped the tab, but they were they were wrong about their they were there.

I'm quite a lot of remain at Corbyn supporters will also remain supporters really didn't understand that his section of the Labour Party has always hugely against the common market and then the European Union because there was somehow or other it was a capital s club which was ganging up first on the Soviet Union and then on the right of the workers to own everything and run everything will be coming basically.

It was a lever then and is a leaving now in all of his speeches even during the referendum to leave speeches and then he finish off with her then his hero was Tony Benn loved and feared Tony Benn he was actually ways to the left of tummy Ben and Ben was committed lever type set for maybe I maybe had a couple of little moment in the White Heat of technology when he was the process of writing a column, then I mean I know we mentioned it briefly earlier, but you not do the same.

After doing after all these years that the last person to talk on the subject on the question time panel house, which is there anything that's of Interest that could have been said on either side has been said you don't have how do you revisit a topic that you might have covered by scratching around for support in data.

We think she might want to write about it depends on the circumstances the whole thing is whether or not if you look at the subject thinking about subject you can feel the tug of a thread inside your mind if I pull at this then it comes easily it comes out the there's an argument here.

There was a connection here which can get us to think about this in a particular way or in a new kind of way.

I don't like the feeling that I'm writing something that I wrote last 2 months ago.

We've ever problems.

You know which can be a bit of a problem in the middle of a political crisis because one thing you sometimes want to do as you go argument goes into Korean

Position, but it's tyre some people get more tribal they they tend to appreciate it and so I've had people sometimes say to me you're not writing about politics that have you given up the fight? It's not just that I don't actually have at this moment that new insight which word offer something you know which would satisfy me satisfy the reader but it is also true.

We have to prove your specialists on the time.

There is quite a lot of pressure on me to come up with non political subjects simply, so you don't have the page absolutely absolutely dominated by politics and the other problem.

I have is you know people have editors comment editor sets everything they get your fashions a little bees in their bonnet so I so I can't look about foreign policy, but then all of a sudden it was put to me that the editor was a big and saying well.

We have foreign policy writers to do that.

Interpret Mrs maybe you shouldn't do that foreign policy tends to be something you have to argue hard in order to and is no question about it.

It's become much more when I first was pretty much would say I'm on about about this and they were pretty much said yes now.

It's back.

You know it's like a Turkish Bazaar you know Santa doing exercise doing while it's been too much of this on the pavement too much that I don't know whether any of this is related to any of my take on the basis of who does what online.

I think it is, I think it's all kind of pricking of my thumbs stuff, but there's any doubt about it that my job has got significant in last decade.

Success of a column as the economy has the writer but do you have any sympathy for these anonymous faceless managers cos they obviously wouldn't have to interpreting measure the success or otherwise of your colon a different cliques.

Is it impact is it retweet? What is it this way in the street facing firstly the need to move significant amount of what we did on line to an answer and reshape class online patterns and then but this is much bigger facing the loss of almost advertising through what time is a dozen times on media Masters but it's absolutely shapes the entire environment and world in which we working.

What are the consequences that is we all do three or 4 times as much as we did a decade ago and has a few of us, and we have to cover more ground and so the whole thing is much less leisurely in terms of the kind.

Some people table that's fair enough, but the time gone where has presided over the Times going to a break-even position from being a beer you know a lot about it, so we're not talking about his judgements about what makes a successful newspapers very hard for me to turn around and say well.

He doesn't know what he's talking about because you know the treatment speak for themselves really that so long as you don't exist I've been at papers that very nearly didn't listen left them before they cease to until recently when the time's went into the black.

I had never worked in my entire working life for an organiser for a pass for an organisation that made money.

It's all been subsidized by something else or you know or in the case of the BBC obviously was.

And put in place by the charter and the news of the charter to to do what it do what it that's so should be in a position.

Whereby you can offer a high quality product in terms of a newspaper and actually being the black is a new experience because the old newspaper proprietors been of in the 80s and early 90s when I was growing your bed or even though the Robert Maxwell This word innocence at least that given the motivation.

They were proto Bond villains, but that's why they own the Daily Mirror so that they could get their message across now.

I kind of feel a bit sorry for because he just used the standards of pr.

Rag and just want to be photographed with Ian McKellen on the stage.

He doesn't actually want to kill us all and have a hollowed-out volcano with the monorail discredit Ariana game rips in today.

I've never seen him.

I've never met him.

I've had no communication with him ever.

You you try and send with this company have different slightly has happened as a consequence of his existence in the in the building in the meetings and so but I never really been put my put my finger on it, but he doesn't like asking loses he really doesn't need to get that sounds very kind of strong mate.

Yeah, it's quite interesting in the loudest voice in the room of the have you seen the Roger ailes thing at the middle finger, is it? What's the word you you would give he's not straightforward Fox News is it works and it but please don't take it too far.

Or James will come up and say that this is a bit ridiculous and we don't want this colour so the kind of the kind of tensions there likes to win a sickly incredibly mischievous.

Just has been all his colour back isn't making mischief which can be interesting can be a pain in the ass at the 13th.

Obviously is he is actually interested in journalism surviving already has been because if you haven't been we wouldn't you want to go to all the dark ages when they were not making they're not quite a few people who work there years ago and never said anything about how we should edit this son when he did so but he didn't need to ask because he just knew.

And no one ever told him what I but I think I'd want could guests including James tell me the first one was that we should have paid all that Josh to the person in Nick the discs with the MPs expenses and the Telegraph did because although that is pretty was pretty close to being illegal and very very over the ethics line and so I'm having a great time he comes up to you.

It is not a real interview.

No nonsense with the story and I suppose.

How far is used in the remember when Glenn Greenwald Edward Snowden was chasing Glenn Greenwald around trying to give in the story got the Scoop so hard to get to do it because green will just could not get his head around it.

We had Martin sitting in that chair couple of weeks ago and because he went in with the GCHQ Whistleblower document and the first thing is not an easy authentic but also what's the what's the angle? What's the agenda of the person giving me and if it's anonymous you having to take a lot on Trust I mean.

It's risky given from the organisation which was that he was spending too much money and then there was the explanation that he was too hard on the tabloid part of the operation when the phone hacking.

What happened it happened about that on the day and it's the only problem I remember having to discuss and the Editors office and early about your journey times of left-to-right you had a pretty unconventional child and your parents were British Communist Party activist with yeah, so how are you writing for the times? And it is it is funny because you know the newspaper of choice at home was the daily worker and then the Morning Star is it became my mum like the Observer would you like Katherine Whitehall them and a bit of that and we will occasionally the Guardian no desire to become a journalist until I was in my mid late 20s.

I had no thought that I would become a journalist at until then.

Seem to be the kind of The Likely succession of things to happen to a somebody like me so I came for a very lovely family my family so my dad was a full-time work for the communists, but I was 13.

I was steeped in politics.

What is going to have a place to spank dissidents that up until then I've been thinking I be a trade union official.

Are you lots of people have gone into a particular the end as I've gone in a bit come kind of deputy general secretary of new back to not sure though one of the arms of the came back to was actually.

I will have been in the trade union movement that seem like an obvious place to get a job another NUS people have gone their predecessor at the National Union students Trevor Phillips went into television at London weekend television you thought about it before and I've done a couple times by then and I thought actually I quite like all this and don't laugh.

I thought what if you want that stage.

I'm not bad at all this stuff.

You know this sort of presenting malarkey.

Maybe I can become Michael Parkinson Michael Parkinson no I'm not really you know I now realise there's a kind of combination of personal characteristics and physical characters that you need to have to carry that kind of thing often.

Probably not me.

I certainly not me.

I don't have to stand in for Michael Pakistan his radio show for about 5-years when he was away so I got kind of close but no cigar and so I went into London weekend television.

I went to see them said I'm present that's all your students might have anything coming up and that this was an organisation which had John birthday director of programs and Horses incredibly bright people in the colour of lower rungs of creative management and a big range of about 4 ITV which was that stay still a licence to print money they called it because the advertising revenues was so buoyant and there were also serious demands made upon the conditions of them getting the licence included them doing things like religious programs and current affairs programmes on which they wish they had to do and then not very long after I went there Channel 4 popped up and all the Channel 4 programmes came.

Possibility of working on those so that the output enable headhunting really I mean they were looking for Thailand etc.

And I got given a apply for jobs are number one in the TV am getting interviewed didn't get her looking at 147 TV in an interview didn't get a look in and I tried also London weekend television Granada got both those Granada had a big problem with a researchable Jack Straw home secretary who defended the Tories riding party pretty and I had to interview where I promised.

I wouldn't be all dreadful and parti pris and right in the middle when they were doing that LWT step didn't offer me the job in London otherwise have gone to Grandma's and I've worked in Manchester a fact which is of no interest anybody other than myself quite a few miles away and it would have changed the course of your life.

I went to college there, so I knew the city I know it was not I had to be said it back then it wasn't.

It is now in the kind of early 80s and it was rather depressed but anyway so I went on the weekend television to work and will they call me back and they said we've got some coming up on the London program and our current affairs flagship.

We can world and actually I knew somebody else who was going out for a job at a weekend.

It was a piece of who I know that because he was in charge of something on the British youth council and we both went out for this one job and Peter you will remember I got it we both said he went to London on which Brian died this year and to ultimately becoming the next at this point.

I didn't have any of your runs on the ladder.

I didn't know what I was doing when I first thing that we can have some such clever people on it and when.

Come into a kind of ready for my journalistic world with people who know what they're doing and I working and have a look at Great speed.

You just watched the other was talking about what the fuck is comes next after the one that's just been said and you don't think I'm never going to get the hang of this.

I just never going to get the hang of it, but there was essentially important thing is it was part of what John Birch Court is cutting against the bias against understanding which she said exist in other media which is and you seen at work.

Was you get no contact you get no understanding for what the thing is contradictory information day one and information day too.

Love you or the listener is absolutely no none the Wiser by the end of this by the end of this process so we can work as one of the program setup program to try and deal with that and what it would do.

It was set up a problem.

Which would become a set of dilemmas for a particular.

Who was so brilliant at it? It's hard ready to describe how you got so good at it that after one no politicians will come on the program and it also wasn't 12 minutes was it was about half an hour.

It wasn't it was a broadcast 48 minutes or 52 minutes it could be that did happen.

If you got somebody really big more typically about half an hour setup and half and half an hour on the on the interview itself, but the point is the journalist organizationally the car that went into this the way you had to think was get rid of your upright thinking about it when you dig down into this particular issue.

What up part of it is the fulcrum of how much this question turns? What is the problem for the person trying to make the decision about it was a genuine import cutaway bit-by-bit the penumbra all the way all the other things.

Shocking to it.

What about what about know what Central to this kind of particular question Middle East for instance what central this question we know that the israelis and the Palestinians want to contradictory know that certain point rather but I compromise which would bring them together is very difficult for both of that give stuff up right.

Ok here's the Palestinian what's going to get the israelis to get stuff at the end of the day.

It's probably this is how it was back then.

It's probably have to be American pressure an American diplomacy and time when you pair it right.

That's why it won't back down this becomes strong became a question for the American Secretary of State or somebody standing in situ of the American Secretary of State this is a terrific way of discipline your mind does come back down to in the end when you get rid of all the nonsense and claims and counterclaims, what is the problem with every week? I think if only there was a week.

How to do what's the problem with Universal Credit actually, how's it set up? Why was it there? What are the problems with person trying to deal with it? They won't want to get rid of it because it means you have another system entirely so that about how you kind of how you deal with it likewise with the whole series of my family for years the most intense journalistic training that you can imagine and people who worked on programme.

I'm not joking for they have an immediate way of looking at the world that I completely understand I can hack into even though when I first went there it just went straight ahead the way they used to talk really useful.

Why have a look at the other thing I was told was we don't want your opinions in here.

We don't want your our priority Prejudice so used to us.

You can have got to get rid of them and try and get as close as your map.

It's true that when you become a colonist.

You can't really always act on that basis.

Times you've got to have the pleasure of the right in the animal spirits at the right.

It's going to rise through some of that is bound to arise from your own preconceived ideas and thoughts and but the basis of it.

I would hate to break the peace and I thought had missed the real point because I was indulging myself in something else and as I said I will also hate it if I felt that this person has never gone anywhere not kind of pieces and it's a searing condemnation of forgot to write your please.

Let's say Hitler was alive again today quite hard to write a piece that started off with many people will think that it was quite a good bloke really and you no problem is a bit of a problem.

You might mind what kind of want to deal with it, but the problem is this is you know if you go here.

We go here.

It is eventually something like Cristiano and then eventually 2.

Far worse things and limitations to the way in which you would make that work even climate change and I mean that the science is settled and yet whenever journalist try to present the topic says he's on the one hand and on the other then you wouldn't do it in that kind of agree.

I mean in the briefing room dealing with a climate.

We not going to start this from the position or some people say eggs and some people say why about whether this is true or not.

We've got to start from the basis that this is settled probably don't know entirely the full extent that is all the stuff that there can be a lot of discussion about that.

We don't know entirely which would be the best remedy as a lot of discussion about that, but we're not is a great discussion about whether or not climate change is happening and whether or not there is a human-made component that human-caused component for it.

It's so bloody obvious that the strength of opinion.

And wait research amongst those who is so overwhelming that this becomes a waste of time and if they were all made a mistake will then fair enough then will rest on the mistake that may cause the worst that can happen.

Is that we take action necessary in order to avert a problem with the Israel is going to know it's going to be catastrophic for all of us so in a kind of way.

You know you get what you actually lose from energy conservation nothing mentioned earlier.

One of my first memories of working within sight of the Parliament in a nice that said look if you knock on the door of an average water they say I'm not going to go to labour because of immigration he said you can reason with them and tell him that immigration is you know clearly good for the economy and good for the country, but the reality is that not gonna win any votes just listen to the rain make them feel heard and I think that this is that's where the remain campaign went wrong because I'm still agonizing over the ethics of that because you

Is it cowardly to actually not challenge that person because his version of his argument was pragmatically is you will never change that person on their doorsteps view and if you try and read them out of it.

Not I'll leave you not just trying the banks of those conspiring against what is done is he is he sort of skated over his problem and your problem and the long-term problem with this firstly.

What is your view about immigration you give it you don't have a clue what you're talking about on that doorstep.

Maybe we can see somebody says that I really don't like that because the immigration.

Yeah, that's interesting find an opening maybe you know I think you know that I'm against them all in fact my daughter who knows best friend as married in Nigeria

He's not a bad as I don't like black people but Frank Bruno's a good boxer.

He seems alright.

Yeah.

That's what they travel around very used to the sort of mechanism for this guy because frankly you didn't want to have some bloody wait hours and you didn't want to come see the ground either, but there comes a moment where they say to you.

What's your policy on it and what you're thinking about it.

Maybe they just want to sound off and maybe it does kind of a position on it very unsatisfactory things that happened in the years that the 16 was it labour among samples to simply brought into the I don't remember EDS I've got one because Lord Finkelstein underpinner kindly bought me one kiss me after which was one of the bloody control immigration.

That's like saying we want a food based diet immigration systems are based on points anyway, so I felt all the if you just said I agree with you to make the problem worse not agree with them.

It was just to have them course.

I've got felt heard that I know but that's probably right from cameras in the door.

Wall kind of been away at all, but we've all done it away with people.

We will have been talking to you because to continuously face people are with your uppers will the evil triumphs when Good Men Do Nothing I mean maybe I had a duty as a citizen and as a parliamentary candidates a disadvantage to this to say well actually respectfully Mr blogs.

You are wrong on this.

It is an example of what a problem is that a person on the Dorset Whitstable Taxis name? Is he saying they all go?

Treatment in the housing you say that's an interesting point of view.

Why do you feel as if you're there psychotherapist that was literally the examples quoted as well, but I find it really hard not under those circumstances to say we're actually you do know that shitt not true.

That's not how it works not have a system works, so I can see why that's not very productive in terms of immediately getting their vote but if you're going over on the basis that you that you've made them feel that you agree with them that immigrants are getting housing when they're not they're coming for tea.

What about that? I find it hard to believe that somewhere on the line.

You don't pay for that fraud both in terms of their attitude and in terms of your own soul Whitley people.in leave the thing is Mr blogs.

Is that you're a local window cleaner a quarter of the your customers are people that have come into this town from abroad there immigrants and their buying your services and you can employ 3 sub.

Cleaners and your business and first wasn't one of them.

I didn't like personally and several Mairead talk to the second thing is that there wasn't one of them that didn't have in the immediately almost immediately a set of propositions which was totally contradictory and which could not be reconciled and they were actually determine that will suit they were contradictory such a nice woman.

She had a habit of cancer treatment.

She's probably in her late 60s and she was incredibly grateful to the NHS and I said but you know you but you want to switch on immigration.

I send it you find quite a lot of work.

I said yes, I think their job should go to English people are not going to English people upstairs unemployed Grande

In his mid-20s was playing his computer game which have been doing for the best part of a week and we can barely acknowledge that we exist to this is because what she really wants is for him to be good enough to get a job in the NHS doesn't didn't want him or doesn't want it.

You didn't want to do that status or probably saw, it's just something that wasn't there for the thing that she wanted to happen was impossible.

She had the absolute proof of it sitting in upstairs in her house, but how can she take the proof of the opposite of a view as evidence that she's right in the mistake and view it because she didn't because well.

I mean this distance than that which is the thing here over here that we believe this thing over here with me they contradict each other but if we don't put them into wrecked opposition to each other we sometimes do this.

That was an excellent germs in many many many ways was he would get riled up in opposite direction on 2 separate days.

He was so why don't you do more of this so much of this is the opposite of argument and never in these discussions to be recognised that there had been another I think actually because he's got much better at that now some of the younger presenters of people that Nick Robinson and Martha and they're really quite good seeing Emma and Dave it's a really good actually put them and they put me too much more around the context in some ways the best of our journey is as good as it's ever been I think you prefer writing stuff you prefer being on here.

Whether it be TV or radio.

What what type of journalism is best for you whatever I prefer is not television and one of the things I can see a real dislike of at the moment maybe an exaggerated.

Is a panda croci I get asked for five times a week to repair a completely and they will come a point where the other times.

I will be desperate for games like that and so on I don't think so, I think it's having a really bad effect.

I think this is the first time that this is poor journalism.

I think stuffing your programs with Talking Heads who are not experts but I opinionated eventually you go for the people who have the most sophisticated opinions but the loudest opinion and the circumstances under which it is always easier corbynistas.

I started appearing on all these programs about 25% are literally nothing.

They won't be corbynistas in 10-years time.

They will know what they will be at GlaxoSmithKline or whatever but they're not going.

Is there a lot of the not going to be that you can tell the covers and as far as I'm concerned? I might be wrong.

I like doing the great disservice, but I don't think so no you're right, but I didn't even more is this respect to these people on about 10:00.

So you know welcome to the sky Paper review when I Jump by Kriss Akabusi and Henry Kelly from going for gold in about well.

I am friends with Andrew easy.

No yellow rose gold things.

Have you got nothing nice to say about anybody come and sit next to me, so there? Is that kind of that there is that kind of element is now so ubiquitous and these clips are now under social media people just say perfectly stupid things but you know and a very kind of parties and

Play some kind of wisdom.

It's not wise.

It's not clever.

It's not it's not in between the internet it just happens to be you know a kind of bring together something you think and you agree with ok, but if you you've gone nowhere great and understood nothing better than we understand it before but your side has got a pint and I got the Plex admire less.

I know that Andrews done some stuff in the mail which is just you know awful attacks on people mostly in the kind of data set about it as a writer was when Janet Street-Porter cater to her brief stint of editing at the Independent she asked me in effect and I didn't really know what to expect.

Not hit you can put it that way on Nicky Campbell because she didn't like him and I didn't quite fulfill it but I in the act even of trying to do if trump saying went dead in me really I just thought this is not something I want to do I don't believe in it and I don't think it adds anything to human I can quite see why might entertain people who enjoy that kind of animals are quite capable of being perfectly sort of my review of Rod liddle's, but before last are friends of the South I think it's a work of art that Review and likewise with that Pauline biography of Cameron done by Isabel oakeshott supposedly with you.

Are there is a kind of I don't know what's that word is a kind of ethics free aerial most 1/2.

X 3 area is does my principles, but if you don't.

Yeah, I don't I don't like that feeling and I don't enjoy that then who are the modern-day woman who are pretty good.

I mean on my times.

I've got lots of good.

I don't know very many who would actually write something they didn't believe they believe the opposite are in their call.

My just can't x got some great colours for you tomorrow so Baxter Danny obviously he looks great writers that we have I mean you got incredibly play writers like Janice Turner you've got thinking question right as like Danny is you know about colour politics.

It's more like Phil Collins got humorous like you go like Rachel Sylvester

I most conversant with and most of it is safer to go on x people and the other thing is if I perfectly candid is I don't actually read that many is that because if you are like a comic you if you got to see all the comments.

I always run the risk and misheard joke from 4 years ago, then you think it's genuinely believe it's your joke and then it turns out there is truth in that which is that somehow I'm not watching by their idea at necessarily but that you get to the point where you think there's nothing I can add to any of this.

I'm not so if you keep I need some of my colleagues really are the reasons and other people's colours you know I'm in all of them for doing it again.

I would never ever watch a question time I wasn't on ever wonder why people put themselves through this I just don't get it.

Obviously, they do you know and it now I used to watch it, but now I don't know which part of the body must be staying for the panel or the audience like you know I'm in the last time.

I did actually was pretty good because I say have got they got the audience in the Weir in South London and knife crime was the biggest and I have some people in the audience who can I find them.

We did you know how much more I let them talk a little bit of it it because it was early on it completely changed have a discussion on the panel for every subject.

We had you now we had the supposed to come of fearsome Jordan Peterson it was going to be this kind of appalling.

He was incredibly reasonable Diane Abbott was reasons but you know that one then everybody started thinking about what they were saying no nobody came up with them with their light and mostly because it's stuffed it off then located the beginning of it.

With these interesting people who are in the audience a garden cost as a bear garden what you gonna get you high like that one is an example of what a good that's not the case that the deviation from the norm most of the time.

It's not a kind of Socratic inquisitorial exploration of an issue.

It's people going there to defend the party line and then getting dinner break back from the other side for a long time.

I went on a question 2011 earlier George Galloway great big bust up because you can't not have a bus that which was going and then I realised what they were trying to engineer again and again every time I had me on if they couldn't quite get it then they were unlikely to go.

I'm not there came back.

Are you know I mean people prepared to do that may be but I'm just not like what I mean.

I like news on the timer.

Homes etc.

I like the people who present about you know at some point rather somebody says we're having a word with got a new book on me like you to come up with I said no, thank you can be bothered.

I can't he's not very interesting that is generally not very interested.

I don't like what that comes situation does not bring out the best in the side of myself that I want to encourage you know maybe when I was younger and less reflective and sorry but I'm just having big banners with people at the end.

I have somebody save you one that if they're on my side on Twitter and all well, you won't there if there are not on my side, but the Producers limit of things like Newsnight in sky because of five six seven eight years ago.

I used to want to be the talking head all the time.

I've gone there and it was part of the course of Newsnight asked me on and then and now.

Dan Hodges is coming on instead you know that's great.

I would never take it personally but it would have to cancel all your plans and then it just that's just you and you have to truly want to be that type of talking head person and be prepared to cancel anything and I'm talking about it's something.

I think I know something about and I feel I feel in the first.

I know more about it and somebody else might do because I've done the work and secondly I care about and then I'm likely to go on but if the idea is here's a subject.

We haven't got to come on but you're a good turn now.

I think this is killing a bit of discussion.

I've had to come to this conclusion fairly recently.

I think these paper review should be stopped.

I think that kind of you know very kind of United people do it but certainly is Bear Gardens between two people and opposite views knocking you know five kinds of etcetera after each other and

Really it's cheap casting it becomes lazy casting as I understand it produces a lower pressure and I can quite see that you know if I was starting a business.

I will be that person phoning me up and getting the dusty answer from this kind of old chap on the other side who kind of feel that it's beneath his dignity so I might be cursing myself.

What's next for you more of the same you carry on Internet Security my radio in perpetuity it means until until you meet your maker it out when the Irishman came out the film I tweeted out that how good I thought it was how you got you know the kind of heroes of my youth Pacino who became a big star when I was 18 De Niro it became a big star roundabout the same time and have a truly actually starting to get eggs in heat.

Of course.

They they shot that you have facing in the middle separate exist.

Hate each other at that point write what you know more about it tonight.

I don't know I do and what you got is a set of absolutely exploring performances from a film director who is also but is absolutely brilliant.

It's three-and-a-half hours is a brilliant brilliant movie anyway.

I put it on Twitter literally 30 seconds GIF of Amazon from saying I wasn't familiar that states that phrase man so whereabouts do you mean you sent it was a guy a journalist working Ireland and he said well.

He said I don't think we need any more of this.

He said this is a film for a certain generation.

He said no one knows who Jimmy Hoffa is and no one needs a CGI James Dean you need to get new actors.

But it does kind of set up a kind of a problem which is that the person is effectively saying was by the act of seeing what you've seen and knowing what you know and live the life.

You've lives.

You're too old to be relevant.

Yeah, you just burger off to understand what it means to talk to somebody like that.

I mean what you're saying is I think you is true that you know but which is universal because you young man, this is what you will be as Al Pacino was and is now older but is still an absolutely bloody brilliant actor and if you can't see that because of his generation the jokes on you write.

What does a compass point at which you have to do is a colon? This you have to stay current so it is nice and still no as much other things that I have become more interested in such as

Scientific advance and had to try hard to understand and comprehend what the future is going to be and the other bits which I've just had a letter off because you can't just go do it all the time and as long as I think that I can kind of maintain a degree of and be interested in it.

I think I will but it does get harder in some ways.

It does get harder and there comes a point where you do begin to think I'll just let him have it.

It's you know what's the point of fighting all this one.

This is this is a young or middle-aged persons go young middle-aged persons game bounce up and down off but Dorset doing that at the age of 60 but not the most people there are other existences and things that you can do in the summer.

I took a month off for the first time.

I had ever done it.

I've never done.

It will no work nothing in that in that period of a few as an email has to be done.

I thought I would feel very awkward I loved but then you got to re-enter and if you're going to do the thing properly if you're not going to the thing I mean, I'm not going to most common this now.

I'm calling this to essentially it do the same thing over and over and over again some of them remarkably young actually and comes a moment really when you are amazing.

They find this some satisfactory as long as you'll be writing a will be reading them.

Thank you ever so much free time today.

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