Read this: Samira Ahmed vs the BBC, Daily Mail podcasts, Apple new TV shows

Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm Olly Murs on today show how podcasts are helping Spotify grow their profits can audio help them male-dominated online news paper go after Radio 1 + Samira Ahmed and Ofcom give the BBC more headaches and in the media.

It's all come to behave coverages later, but in the meantime.

Just give us an exciting Q3 radio ratings headline performance.

Yeah.

Yes my own radio station the other my other fact is the hours for younger people is start.

Dropped precipitously ok the biggest event that something else recently has been producing the excellent episode of archive on 4 presented by him to eat at Ollie man.

Tell me instead about unheard the Fred and Rose West types.

Will it snow salacious as you might think it's because I think is episode 8 is out now and it's basically going out soon as the journalist who first one the first it was on to the Fred and Rose West he's got his original micro takes from when he was covering the story 25 years ago so is interviews with lodges and lawyers and family members and so we retelling the Western particularly focusing on the stories which at the time with tabloid journalism really got ignored.

They released the list of names and it's a series that's doing very well this week the week we record.

Now gone past 1 million listens, so thank you and I save the best till last we have a blue chip panel with us this week.

It is the annual appearance of the Queen Mother of Media punditry journalist again this time.

I don't know where we go next week the women in journalism event this weekend and see because it was like a defensive fortress offensive that I couldn't find it and none of this is actually by accident of course for new design these huge buildings and it's I think directly influenced by 9/11 and the fact that affected very much so being a New York worried and I think probably understood that there would be future threats to people actually just trying to do genus of any sort but obviously Bloomberg

But yes, it was a good it was interesting because they were very experienced women giving their knowledge and experience to catch lesser mortals and in one of the things that came out keeping really was that women if they wanted to literally no March up the up the scale and become the buses are going to have to be very good course once they're going to be less drinking Violets and they're going to have to come forward.

You know if the story gets dismissed you put another good one.

You don't sort of run away and your corner and sort of have a little weep you have to sort of man up or lean in Sheryl sandberg indeed.

Yes, it has and I think there's also there's a whole confidence level and there's been a change in the past 10 years and it's being driven to by the fact that you cannot now.

For example just have an all male panel on a discussion show with you.

Do you realise it's a bit wrong or you? It's a very special subject.

So there's more equality in terms of so obviously there are still more male voice and female voice but all of that has improved immeasurably I'm in one of the people on the panel was Liz Howe who you've had on the podcast who has actually had an awful.

Lot of the he might come on a train really I'm content so yeah, it was a good evening.

I enjoyed it ok.

Let's dive in then.

We'll talk about it off comes second annual review of the BBC and findings that Auntie continues to lose younger audiences of alluded to this with radio, but this is the case across the piste report is quite steep BBC and a taken to task over a whole range of activities gender age race is all in there.

And also you need to get a bit of a kick for how they doing in On Demand vs other S4 providers like Netflix broadcast work together on a thing called kangaroo a number of years ago with the perfect time this was all kicking off and they were told no that would be anticompetitive and now they're getting a chicken because they're not doing so well for the particular stop at your reference.

Where is the younger people were more likely to watch BBC content on Netflix and iPlayer that's pretty damning.

Isn't it? They wouldn't know the Doctor Who was the BBC show the doctor is a BBC show but there a device and an app and a system that they can female television on that's that happens to be onto and they're not too bothered about going to the to the BBC's platforms for me.

I've got the message yet.

There's a section on iPlayer for them also.

I think one of the big problems for the BBC Television is it's been programmed so that is average age is in the 50s for BBC One and BBC

Yeah, I know that's all that programming is doing very well for that audience and probably keeping up BBC total share in television.

It's great that young people I'm going to go to the On Demand platform for the service that mainly reaches people in their late 50s and that's a big loss to the BBC Three content is on BBC one, but again it's on the channel which you know how many people are consuming and they were in a world where we schedule our TV and radio stations by knowing what they do so I think absolutely the BBC's jobs to fix these things it's also ofcom's part of their problem that they caused some hits because I'm in a lot to be made of rupaul's drag race start that's been advertised not really is BBC3 show but on iPlayer.

it's not be sure it's been on American telephone over a decade but I think this is probably got myself into is they've got no spaces broadcast this they've they've lost any channels to do the job and this is why radio BBC sounds and why the big push is there pretty much radio and audio you all the heavy lifting for BBC as organisation to reach young people so do you think you're going to end up seeing the BBC doing a BBC sounds but for telly there is a revamp of iPlayer in the maybe it will be focused around new content aimed at young people you can get elsewhere, but I just don't know I mean if I could just pick you up at 11.00 this kind of chastising of the BBC over not catering for younger people this has been of Clans attack on Channel 4 really for the past decade before it came into the area of regulating or overseeing the B&B

Yes, the BBC are pretty annoyed actually with Ofcom when we're another and I would also add that if you look at ofcom's somebody not me that somebody needs to actually do a proper examination of the way of because it is actually still quite a young regulator and all I know is for my history Channel 4 that makes mistakes.

It wasn't actually necessary back to the kangaroo apart from that was really a competition in you which was probably wrong, but there has been is constant and nagging really about younger audiences while at the same time expecting the BBC to be all things to all people my view is that a lot depends on whether the licence for you sorted out this over 75s you if they don't somehow get back the money were expecting to get from a government then there in if and I've heard quite a bit about this if the can be a deal done once we get over brexit.

Once you get past the election once people start talking about policy problem once we have a culture secretary more than a couple of months so if that happens but I have heard very good conversations that there can be some sort of fix on this then maybe the BBC can stretch its wings a bit of one of the things making Morgan was musing about the idea that the licence fee becomes a subscription.

I think most people don't like that sort of always been on the table, but in like 40 years time but might be that sooner than expected.

I just think that's probably a very very steep slope in terms of if we genuinely believe that there is some sort of role in the production of content for the BBC then to go down the subscription clearly just starts to make a another service and I'm not sure that's necessary the the Rightmove I mean I think if you want to talk about big steps the BBC should be taking we all know that historically it is the TV people in the Channel controller.

Mated be the politics and the Landscape at the BBC to the expense of online continental expensive radio and that has to change reminder standing is there is a big it was a big argument bring a big fight coming between the role of iPlayer on the people who are leading iPlayer and the role of channels and where they might stand it gets to the heart of this issue, which is the old is a consumer through the channels in younger audience isn't radio haven't we going to play out here people work radio for complaining, but it's going to be sounds that has nothing to what happened to BBC sounds a bit better organised as well.

They made a sort of somehow in in this so that everybody always does this when they really launched an online site.

It will get it wrong.

I'm in Channel 4 change for a d20 pudding for all on it.

Just isn't a model at the moment.

That's coming with sounds I think because Jonathan wall is in there now and he's got a box of track record of working with the small dynamic team because he used to head up 5 Live and

He's already getting in place much more great organization, but obviously it just gets to the heart of audience behaviours and you keep coming back to the same point which is once you get an on-demand had it why would you ever switchback idea just turning on the telly and hope you gonna find something would just turn on the radio and hope you're going to find something is not going to happen.

It's not a logical Direction and also what they need to do those they have to then invest in the actual anymore because it's a delight to use Netflix as opposed to I can and let's be honest about it.

You know the the Netflix experience is extremely seductive, but that's because they really really work on the technology and you don't get a buffering and they managed to find and I see the entire programming budget for the BBC just that I'm just trying to find out that they do get some compensation or something changes out with the over-75s, then they would have resources to put into that as opposed to content.

This is a problem across all of the domestic efforts to do online sites.

It's not just a BBC Weather Leeds domestic.

Let's not forget the iPad is still a very good platform and does lead the way but you're right.

It's up again some really really challenging that transition from being a catch-up service to meeting her but destination have always had trouble defending one and getting into another can we talk about what I said about BBC news as well, which was essentially journalists need to be more willing to call out lies challenge extreme views basically saying this idea of balance gets too overly impose.

That's what is over the situation.

It is interesting because I've well they're also saying that younger people if they want to be if it's wants to be engaging them like gritty stuff they like views.

Like things which stand out and some of these things do ran counter to the BBC culture which is to try to be measured and balanced and what I think is actually think it's nothing.

I think television is a very difficult medium in which to discuss complicated political ideas and it's perfectly it's a spoken medium or it's a visual and in some ways the best way to actually work out.

What is going on history proper newspapers or to read the documents so I think it's really hard to be informed at the moment about what were being offered in brexit Ifield she gets a bit caught up in that but yes of course it is to anodyne.

It's it's coverages is under attack from both sides, and I don't think that necessarily means that it's in the right.

Is there a fundamental point which is that it's quite right.

You should strike a balance on an issue where there are two genuine points of View so you know abortion classic example.

You may not agree with the other side, but there are two genuine points of you when you get something like climate change and you have Nigel Lawson on the Today programme who is a climate change the night and just talking and all the science is there to show that this thing is is happening.

That's not a balance issue.

That's not a point of let's show the other side because the other side is factually incorrect which is what the report says but if you're a presenter on the BBC you've got a lot going on you got people speaking in your ear you got to represent the values of the BBC you've got to digest the news and presenting no way that's accessible and entertaining all the rest of it and then at the same time is this an issue when I don't have to be friends, do I have to say the counter example thing or do I actually say no you're wrong? It's a lot to expect of a journalist on telly not writing an article but I also think that the shift is also because we're in a much more divisive Society now because you can buy brexit and also consumers of Media particularly The Noisy ones.

Twitter and the social platforms are used to having more specialised hearing more specialised views, so there's a lot of people who just assume that if you are independent or trying to balance your lying you know you are withholding your view and actually secretly in what you've said.

You're attacking one side or undermining the other and I think that's the problem is the people are the successful journalists a cheating with what they say and then you look at something like LBC and I think you have Iain Dale who is used to be an MP is right wing however because you because you know that you can make a judgement about what he's saying.

I think it's a lot of people feel that is more honest because you understand them as a human being and staying in the middle and perhaps just doesn't scale to a more complex digital world is Nigel Farage going to

How to have his position in commercial radio and turn off your son is MP is he hasn't announced was doing and even if it has the brexit party got disqualified him from broadcasting.

I need to double check the room is really changed that the climate what's acceptable under our so-called impartiality rules and I listened and I think goodness and it's also where they were the presenters are placed in the schedule as well.

You know they're not been buried late at night then write in your Facebook may be driving around in cars.

You know going on journeys, so I think that completely change the atmosphere and so has actually the Naga Munchetty decision which has Rocked the BBC because it appears to say that on morning shows.

Good Morning Britain for example you can have opinionated people the best guidance is actually rational scepticism that is the phrase I've heard rational scepticism evolved use with more media news after this.

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Develop into something very serious and in hospital for you if you're free flu jab now NHS this episode of the media podcast was recorded at spirit land in London's Kings Cross Productions providing professional audio solutions to TV radio and online as well as their broadcast standards Productions also has a world-class OBD vehicle for audio and video projects of any scale whether it's podcasting outside broadcasting or live concert recording producer with spiritland Productions just go to Studland productions.com now well, it's not just our panel.

A blue chip remainder of the Guardian Media took days like back, then we are doing a hefty chunk of the BBC's I'm going to move onto the next BBC story so I can get through as many as you can which is the Radio 1 control Cooper has announced his departure from the network a brief obituary Steve and what do you think as prompted him to go so Ben has been controller ag-150a think something like 8 years me something like that.

He previously held various other produce an editorial roles of anyone who had just entered capital as well.

So long term radio person to someone who is very passionate about the radio.

I think it's probably the things first will be earlier in the year.

You may recall that Lorna Clarke appointed as I think ahead of control that is above the controller of 1 and you know I don't know this is fact but I would be amazed if they hadn't gone for that for that role and clearly he didn't get chosen.

I think the other thing is Radio 1 is a year.

It's it is having to move at a faster pace than ever before I don't know exactly how things really late forties something right so so I would imagine that the issue.

Is is just the radio one is as we just been debating with the TV channels is facing real real challenges and then probably looked at it and it looked his expertise and the demand for all professionals that that there is now because of things like podcasting is probably thought ok.

I think I might have a good chance of picking up a very nice Rolls R Us everything is going to go briefly I don't know but I mean if you look at previous controllers in music stations at the BBC they usually go into the music Spotify these days could be any other big podcast operator one of the big American podcast company Toulouse

Obvious place, you've got a great commercial radio stations.

Yes, they share some frequencies, but how they work is almost entirely different and on another BBC story Maggie they are fighting a pay dispute claim from Samira Ahmed for us well.

Samir Ahmed is very experienced and Janice she was at the Channel 4 but she has most recently be doing been doing two spots really for the BBC and she is saying that she has been seriously underpaid at £425 a week for 15-minutes.

Lot of newswatch, which really is on the BBC news channel, but we're stopped into the Sunday breakfast show as well and the problem for her is that the person who does points of view or has done points of you when she was basically doing her job.

Was Jeremy Vine and he was really getting £3,500 for a point of view that isn't gender discrimination that sort of BBC One News channel is the point of using entertainment show news watching the news show she's getting paid the same as the previous mail email reply, but I don't think she's trying it on a bit really I admire her bravery, but there is a difference between a news channel program commission for a new trial which gets repeated and and what my high octane basically entertainment information show big breath.

She is Jeremy Vine is is a star.

That's the fact of the matter.

He has a much higher profile.

I've listened to him actually on Channel 5 is Michael week and also quite that I would like him very much on on Radio 2 and he has a lightness and

With and he's just a very very accomplished broadcaster in every area as far as I'm concerned and I think that may account for the difference between a he's not there now because we know what happened at the BBC is it for Tudor case it's pay policies have been actually very very models and I include the people right at the top who remember getting bonuses in the 90s infuriated the politician.

You've got presenter some of him very few now remain, but who could command whatever their agents could get for them and everything has changed really class of courses this biggest to yes of being far between people being equal pay for people doing equal jobs, so I would be so I'll be surprised if she will the government behind the headline that would be your right Jeremy Vine is subjectively bigger star than Samira Ahmed but her point is no Woman was allowed to be a bigger starring Jeremy Vine in the scenario where the head presenters.

Big money went to big male names and therefore that in itself is a Kinder gentler and Robinson used to do very well.

I don't know but she also had a slots.

I think I think that there is a difference between people who are genuine big stars and people are not and this is just an unfortunate that the BBC also happens to be in show business as well as in public service with it.

Would you touch a little bit is it's not just about the size of the star she's saying that affect the show she was doing was based at the same to the content as points of View and therefore.

That's why I should be paid the same in that obviously there's all sorts of issues because you know where does that stop in terms of apples and pears you can completely Carrie Gracie case she was a correspondent in China and she was complaining.

I'm not been paid the same as in a special Correspondents in America and so you can say ok.

Yes, you can see that is in effect the same job and there isn't clear.

I think there's a real new once around this that is very very different and I can I think we all agree with the principle of equal pay but this feels like it's not quite a fair comparison.

I don't know how the hell was Jeremy Hunt a half grand for a program that bloody watches Claudia Winkleman gets paid a lot more for doing the film programme on BBC One when she did that whoever Mark Kermode seen on the news channel.

I don't know that it's content is moved out Jeremy Vine has moved out or diversified.

We've got to do something for Channel 5 now.

I think was interesting was when you stole the politics you realise he's got a great radio voice actually is pretty well suited to Classic FM to speed on all the stations in the start of the station ok, let's move on from the BBC please talk about online streaming at Spotify three results are in revealed some interesting data.

That would be learnt Spotify doing a big investment to the podcast space earlier this year.

They acquired three companies gimlet Media podcast and Anchor do those been content companies.

They were already making some of their own material and what they've decided seemingly is there an audio system not just a music app and they are keen to have everything that goes into people's ears going going through Spotify but they should their quarterly reports.

The data was information that if people listen to podcast through Spotify they're more likely to convert to paying subscribers at the service.

That's where the money comes from.

There is not funded product in Spotify and the pockets have done ok with their ad money and that's growing quite a clip, but it's still dwarfed by the music is podcasting.

It's me where to get a new subscribers.

It seems to be the right thing for them and Stevenson podcast producer.

How do you feel about that? You know Spotify a chroin? They all look we can use podcast to Leverage I use to subscribe to premium give us more money.

So what people like you're so what are they giving Spotify more money to hear it? Is that right? No, but where it clearly helps podcasting is the invoice that they are putting into podcast and don't forget this isn't just about them buying the companies.

They bought for significant amounts of money.

They are also investing in original titles so in effect of becoming a commissioner and they're buying.

Show so successful broadcasters are being made offers by Spotify to take their titles over to Spotify and Investment going going in for the upgrading to premium.

I'm paying you to take away the ads that are annoying me but the people who are making a financial contribution aren't lining your pockets their learning a third parties pockets that you haven't true that there are also paying for system a marketing which alert people to listen to a material and it is a podcast provider.

I'm very happy that there are a number of apps out there as well as apple and Spotify and another thing that I want them all speak in vegetative and because they have a better chance of not locking me in some content dungeon and

Have a podcast ceremony.

Could you listen to Kisstory please to see commercial radio doing so well, I mean I think when I said earlier that the regulators make a hash of things very often of radio and in the 90s and it's good to see national brands being created LBC going national for example mail.bcu beaten up by the regulatory system.

It's managed to survive and come through so now I'm quite happy and you're not actually going to see you can't have when the whole time BBC is still a very very very strong position as a broadcaster in this country on in all areas, so it's inevitable as commercial radio really gets it's act together which I'm start at the side to say it's taking too long.

You're going to find challenges in this find digital channels that really at strip them and that's how it should be that's competition for you network channel is Kisstory Absolute 80s as well.

Yeah absolutely it's the biggest station into markets of neck with the main kiss you know they found a thing that works which is gold for one and one of the can you see that with hearts and heart 80s and 90s global have just launched the whole suite of new national spin-off Services based on their big brands because they seemed huge Bow Street growth, but more importantly hours hours and total hours that provides the commercial impacts that these beasts can monetize.

How did scholar do though because that was actually a bold New Idea wasn't a classical music for young.

That doesn't seem to drop on their opening radio and around 230000 think they know it's a big build.

I'm sure they would like to be a lodger.

I think that probably say that something was off or much of that Quarter and I think there's some telly to come to promote it but also it does show just showing a station national doesn't mean since exist and the things connected to Brands at of the things that I've done my time because you are much easier to introduce something but it's just been off with something people know and love them to start and brother depressingly for people who likes their local radio station back in the day more vindication for the networking strategy is no, I think I'm right in saying that the combined ratings for the heart breakfast show on all of the individual hot sad about used to be a caveat to that in that a lot of the local stations cos they're smaller have their radio measured annually in Rolling quarters.

Well, you know so it's perhaps not totalview on those yet, but I think I think there's a good point which is particularly for the pop radio stations that are open entertainment Jamie and Amanda on heart.

It's really simple.

She think she's she's really good and it's different to what the locals delivered, but it's high quality and I can see it doing doing pretty well.

I'm just talking about BBC failing with young people earlier.

Maybe a Glimmer of Hope in Greg James ratings on Radio 1.

They're up.

Yes, he's clearly connect with an audience.

So good good good.

I think Radio 1 on the whole continues to sort of find it quite tough going on.

I'm still looking to Max's much for the expert and all that sort of chips around this of 9.2 to 9.7 million minutes and 9.3 million at the moment.

I didn't that's a reach figures that people listening to five.

Radio 1 in a week and I think you are lots of getting lots of competition.

We talked about their spin-off stations people can have a very good useful radio experience without Radio 1 at which you couldn't even 10 years ago and so was going to find a challenge.

I think the big shift as I mentioned earlier was hours and reach actually has held up pretty well around so many people that listen to 15247 to radio 10 years ago this into it today, but the amount Mason has changed and that comes from being a point where at 3 music payment was only provided by the radio which of course is not the case now, so it's great surprise that young people listen to it and we should be very pleased that they but they listen in their volumes, but that's a big Challenge for social groups that are built on the hours.

So if you see you look at the share in London which is what a lot of people look at LBC is kind of been at the top of the last three quarters.

6 actually doing quite well and the hearts and all the capitals in the kisses have been drifting and hot and magic and doing better and that's because there isn't the volume of listening for younger audiences see how is radio one was basically a channel that radio station that appeal to younger people outside of London and sounds to me very sort of quite urgent, so that's very much and I don't know what the weather is very much for the Manchester Oldham Birmingham kids you know I don't know when they were quite hard to have voices which represent a lot of the areas and a great contest last week so treasure hunts and they did that in England Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland with voices from each of those places being kind of Champions for the winners.

I think I might be going to look at how great does outside outside of it.

Difference of Chris Moyles that's what he is an angry me as well.

I think it's just more traditional radio listen and what what grade does but it's a much more consistent.

That's what he's doing well and finally on the radio thing new station from LBC LBC News is anyone had listened on launch day, so LBC News is a 20-minute roll if you change your headlines in 20 minutes every 20 minutes.

That's basically it wasn't except when there's breaking news and there's been a bit about this week and they have they will take a parliamentary debates it's it's it's presented live so and they got access to pretty good resources now, so that they can look into a good job of it goes really well done.

I think if I was to BBC a bit.

I think this is an obvious thing we should have done some remember saying to you on this show before Steve Ackerman but 5 live sports extra should have a News Extra 5 years ago run pmq info dump.

The body rugby with the internet thing is this is and I hope Maggie will confirm to me, but this is basically the same thing that I read this in coronation of LBC tried probably 15 years ago baby and obviously taken from a from a us us format.

I mean the BBC the truth is the radio station has always been slow to innovate and intelligent network to the commercial version didn't look launch five live until talk radio was going so yeah that she say when there's really big sport and big news on at the same time.

It's not be on the winter from really I mean from conversations.

I've had I think they would like five live to be to digital radio stations and they've had to try and make that happen, but basically regulatory challenges from there and I imagine particularly from TalkSport with talksport2 and now with from global for LBC LBC News and I think that they have missed.

The boat where they are going to have a new Alexa news app which is a bit different to other ones where you can come and query for more information and can escape headlines and it may be a more non-traditional new services to a growing via a paper diary to say now.

I think of Alexa to third of listening on Alexa is to radio so it's like the second or third most popular thing to do on the device, but interestingly it's 55 places that really do that about 60% of their listening to Radio Show has already broadcast.

I love it as a device because it's another radio that's out there, but the Challenge for registrations.

Alexa is there's no way to choose a station other than say the name so you.

Have a brand to have consumption ok, let's talk now about the latest shenanigans mail online mail plus where they got that made from every class init a Premium service which includes daily radio show has a podcast me and also Weekly podcast is being launched by the tabloids mat for a little while, but they're basically souping up and making a bit more digital is how I understand it says there's more in the out those they're trying to cultivate their subscribers more than just give digital version of the paper is a lot of audio in there as well which is all available online.

I did some some google, searching lots of different words together and found all their pilots and they've been practising this since about May lots of different shows many profound announced that perhaps will not see the light of day.

So they audio similes is quite a big push for them and

This is going to present this daily radio show me daily at a set time so that's why it's not a podcast that's why it feels like maybe a slight.

I don't know how do you make a slightly backwards.

I don't know why they doing it didn't work in the UK that operate like businesses.

No, it is not the right thing to do a podcast and Michael yeah, and I don't know whether it will make the problem is that so much good quality free podcast contents from right and left and whatever your prediction is I'm not sure Andaman hotel lead show and others are going to build Desire desirable subscription-based as much as they were cats I like them through them.

Which is pretty well read and the other thing is this is really a big push by the editor Geordie Greig and his deputy who is a very capable person Justin Davis on to it.

I'm sure they'll be massive changes known you ever get some sort of thing right first time.

I maybe not second time, but I bet you they will go on free resources that it because they know they have to do something out there be kind and audio will be listening News UK the same thing studios to create podcast you know the times in the sun in the olden days, UK save used their titles and their radio stations to promote their product cost and I still struggle to have lost its blessing of the last few years.

Is there I mean I'll be seeing showing this for example, but if you have your branding in big letters behind a Provocateur then it will go on Facebook and even people don't click it and listen.

They see your

I find it odd that News UK good at that when it comes to talk radio and talkSPORT but they haven't done it with The X Factor videos of the stuff of the sun and wondering mail Online actually what I'm trying to do is just getting 100% on Good Morning Britain just have them sitting in front of the daily mail logo and it does not listen to it or not.

I think of having an offer so he was a reason to subscribe if you never actually listen to it, but you know I will get my 495 month or whatever is the daily.

That's what they want to be isn't it the New York Times the daily is in my car is very well like 27 people that work on and also don't forget the history of the daily is it was almost an accident you know you know they they start experimenting with a much smaller team and suddenly found that there was an audience for it and they were making 8 figure sun's out of it.

The male one of the Likely suitors for the Daily Telegraph again.

Less than 662000 for hopeful that you I mean people think Jeff bezos, but I can't really see what I wanted.

I think we'll say there's some the former editor of The Daily Mirror whose name is escaping me and I can't David he's got in.

What's it called national world and he's always up for a bargain so we don't really know the both of the parties are so secretive it really know what they want to do either apart from offloading a paper that lasts is just scraping into just under £1000000 a profit.

So yeah, I hope it goes to somebody responsible because it's so sad sort of movie paper.

I feel compared with the data used to be a proper newspaper in the 80s that used to do news properly.

Fat that survived under under Max Hastings really and I think it's just lost its way who would I'm including it would buy it would feel they can get a bargain and that they can try and turn it around as a business but on a fundamental basis the newspaper model is now broken and it's only going in One Direction and so far from that perspective on who you know why anyone would believe at this point in time.

It is it is a business model that can can still reap rewards.

I mean the way forward really is somebody who's got very deep pockets to invest properly and heavily in the journalism and to erect a paywall so that people will pay it alongside are advertising it Republic the brand does mean something when you have no idea of quality journalism.

Brexit loving government that it will be kind of right onto and it has had some it does still break stories and wrapped in Twitter's of course The Spectator which I'm actually certain somebody would buy because it's always been a rich man's point really I don't know what what the future holds.

Why don't know what the prices we seen the way the Daily Express was turned into another group and that's really all so what's been happening in the original pressing the obvious suitor would appear to be the Daily Mail who did want to buy because they are in the newspaper business for the weather there under the current ownership and management really want to dive deeper into a very expensive probably lost making paper.

It is just another matter in my heart.

I do hope that all the people in the shires you still like to read the obituary is no rest of it.

I hope that somehow it does find a new enough Major Tom

Left 260 million quid and it made up 1.6 million military.

Why bother my body any of it it is and that's like to meet someone who wants to be able to write the prime minister and have tea, and then and now we're at the moment to do those things going away in the the numbers.

Keep on going down and and and I suppose I wonder whether the issue for the Telegraph with an older demographic is yes, you would have you start giving up a while you start to do more online content but for an older demographic.

That's not an actual place to go for cos you got a really reinvent the brand to make it had to give it a much wider appeal and he said that I think it's dormant verging on being a toxic brand about the BBC and then news coverage.

When are they look who reads the online versions of news?

Older people so it's not as if it's people over 64 conference on the internet and not actually accessing use other than the newspaper but the other people older people also like to read things and it comes back to my point about democracy if you really want to understand things do you need to read manifesto after I just because I want to see you onto your specialist subject to make sure there's time for this.

You've got 3 minutes to talk about Channel 4 launch his creative Hub in Glasgow are a very interesting.

It was a little bit of a misnomer because in fact they were they are opening and national headquarters in Leeds that is perfectly true and it is a year after their decision to do so and there will be a large number of people that 300 jobs have been created but at the moment.

They're still waiting for the

Does that they've chosen which is this rather wonderful building called the Majestic if you've ever been in the come out of the railway station in there? It is and used to have a number of things in the nightclub and all the rest of it.

They had to have their party in a in a very trendy bar, which was fine and all the Greeks came along and it's quite clear that there's a whole me in that region is Bradford as well people from Newcastle they are all hoping that this can be a real a moment of regeneration for the television and the media industry is there and there are a number of interesting things that are going through.

I will be going to release and then this week of course.

They they transfer to the fact that they're also opening properly and the number of commissioners have been placed and of course the same will happen in Bristol so there's three she can go to the community, but it's actually going.

What does June is that putting commissioners and money into these places will that's the theory so for example the head of drama which is not one of the biggest area is actually in Channel 4 times of Caroline Hollick she is based in these and she will go down to London I think what you have to remember about Channel 4 is only 850 people all the commercial side of the business side is really saying in London because they 95% dependent on advertising if they don't run that side of it properly there isn't a Channel 4 but they are what's happened basic for the past 1015 years is that there's been a lot of cheating about regional Productions switch really have not been regional production Productions and such as well.

You know where you were to be planting a production team to make a program but actually you import all the people who can do it.

Commuting from London because it's on the Metropolitan line to show you know where people live now.

Oh, yes and then one of the first Big commissions which Channel 4 made and you guys is going to be made by expectations which is the big of the new indeed rather being run by Peter Fincham and you know it's a rather sort of london-based Metropolitan who know what they're doing but with an art poster on a partner in Leeds so they have to find hits that are generated outside of London that's one that's what the big that's the big question for them now.

I think I'll probably do it.

There is just time for a legendary media careers for the first original production from Apple TV Plus and then I'm going to give you the headline to a review of the morning show you just have to spot the missing word.

It doesn't mean you know the answer so maybe you will say that you're saying that was a great.

Let's go his headline number one Jennifer Aniston can't save apples what and what debut drama the missing words when you know the answer Steve Steve Newsroom and use them daily drama no rudderless and doll at indeed.com fraught with what about what it is and for computer Steve confusion.

I like playing the game Steve you're in love with anxiety that was right to be independent and here is question number three it's all to play for Apple TV Plus Rises but doesn't what with star in new drama, that's all.

So close to me a review for Rolling Stones have undressed, how hard it is to make telly yes going to a different sector people watch television or listening to the radio that can make it and guess what it's like hard and it seems but are you going to be watching Apple TV Plus because you're a long time you will be able to have you no room in our wallets and in our minds for another subscription free phone off.

Just got a phone so I will try to bite immediately.

I think you underestimate apple at your peril.

I think it's working to Amazon because it owns these devices and now if you have a smart TV it's obviously going to be embedded of course.

I'm not going to get everything right, but do I think they've got the deep pockets 2 challenge Netflix with a net?

Play hard to change yes, I do and it's only one of a number that's coming over the hill and they all need all these global companies seem to think they really really need to be in the television and that's what's happening if I really think it's important to their business.

They will buy a massive studio to do it properly when you've won the quiz congratulations that is it for today.

Thank you to Steve Ackerman Maggie Brown and not digging if you're not happy pockets like apple head to the media podcast.com and choose an amount to keep us going all year round with a previous episodes and get new ones as soon as they're released by subscribing for free website vmedia podcast.

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