Read this: 25/10/2019 Radio 4 Feedback

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts the demon drink has been blamed for many of our woes but this week and feedback.

It is under the microscope charged with helping cultivate a fad.

I didn't have time to stand the roots of the contemporary plant based movement and it started about 150 years ago in the States and it came out the Temperance Movement that comment on stop the week last Monday infuriated many vegans was listening to start of the week.

When was disgusted with the way plant-based diets or represented presenter Kirsty is accused of being far too supportive of her guests controversial views, when she should have been challenging them.

Also this week.

I'm checking I'm co-producer Chloe had my phone directions really happens in Balcombe just who is in need of this program itself misrepresented the facts and needs correcting.

Does the correction series itself need correcting will examine the evidence with as much journalistic figure as we can in the limited time available and against the tight deadline just the original coverage and dinner out of your comfort zone feature.

Can we buy a small distance away from Radio 4 to see what else is on offer.

I don't think we completely manage it this time by the end of the program having listened to do and I just thought it sounds as if I've life has just lost a potential listening.

It's going back to radio off we start with start the week presented last Monday by Kirsty Wark she interviewed a member of guests on food related topics ending with food writer who came out with what many of you think of some fairly contentious comments about vegans and vegetarianism.

Is it tastes animal foods and meat?

Nutrient dense foods and other cereals and vegetarian plant foods have a lot of valuable nutrition in them.

They cannot compare new neutering and what you seem to be saying is you are a vegan that you're going to have to take supplements you are you going to have to take vitamin B12 supplement Ono you? Don't say vegans and some others felt his walk was far from impartial Richard peacock.

I appreciate that the issue of BBC bias and balance is thrown around far too liberally but I think if you're going to talk about an issue in these terms then you need to balance the viewpoints.

When is that is someone who can accurately represent a vegan perspective or a presenter who will challenge the guest claims David Gibbon another factor was piece of propaganda on behalf of the meat industry by some woman bleating on about Jackfruit and avocados and seventh day adventists.

Would it be possible to get some sense?

Legal opinions on the Airways instead of trotting out these ridiculous caricatures of veganism all the time when is Theresa and I'm from London I know it's not the news that an institution which insist Helens to the extent that Nigel Farage is never off the BBC and Climate Change denies were given frequent coverage until very recently to hear the presenter Kirsty Wark so without challenge the eating 14 B14 no harm in applying to the environment maybe even the animal is ridiculous an offensive the program also trace plant-based diets back to a religious group obsessed with station and this is a gross misrepresentation of a movement driven initially by Compassion and more laterally by concerned for the climate this program to my mind was disgusting me biased representative of those who choose a plant-based or vegan diet Kim Burgess she's talking absolute rubbish and no one is there to contradict it people do not need to eat.

Beginners do not need additional vitamins any more than meat Eaters to Matt Wheeler to have no mention made of the environmental impact of the meat and dairy industry not least the Burning of rainforests for posture and to grow crops to feed cattle and the contributory effect of methane climate change strikes me as thoroughly unbalanced earlier.

I was inviting Lang who is professor of food policy at city university in London and began by asking him whether Joanna blythman was to partial in her approach to the issues surrounding veganism everyone's partial.

I'm not someone who believes in anyone be neutral.

I've known Joanna for a long time.

She's a very good journalist and a very decent person, but she suddenly arguing a very particular case which is not on around.

I would certainly don't want to personalize anything about these let me know if I just put some specific things that she said that I listened as of questioned for example is it correct?

the people eating a vegan diet will definitely need supplements to stay healthy and that's not necessarily true at all usually what people say in answer to your question blonde is if you want to read we take the supplements and they're being sent your moments when medical advice has been to do that, but that is constantly changing let me just that I'm someone who watches this terrain with great interest and the general picture that I've given seems to be pretty constant over time but the more there are vegan in the Morfa is experience of adopting a vegan lifestyle the more the evidence will probably change so I wouldn't like to say and you notice I didn't say definitely all vegans take supplements because the jury is still really out on them and what about Kirsty Wark statement that 14-year old beef is not harmful to the environment in Britain

Meath vs.

Veganism is 1 what do you do with the British Land if you're not growing animals well, there is actually already very good evidence that when distorting or reduced by producing so much meet and what sort of me when producing there's an ongoing argument about whether we should be reducing cattle and sheep particular reforesting and rewilding the Uplands that they use and certainly much less use of land to grow grain to then feed it to animals.

I'd like to put 12.2 family in which was the account given by Joanna blythman about the origins of the history of veganism which he stressed the relationship with the Seventh-day adventists and we've had to say that's not true.

We had a statement from the Vegan Society which says it is not let me quote specifically it is not true the bigger Nizam Stand From Religion 150 years ago in the way Joanna blythman.

Horrified BBC allowed to make such claims they say the Vegan Society was established in 1944 by Donaldson and a group of his friends and Watson also defined the term vegan back then was Joanna blythman right to say or to give the impression that veganism started with Seventh-day adventists.

I think it's wrong to say veganism minutes starting with the Seventh-day Adventist but the academics and on the epidemiologist and the Medics have consistently been interested in the seventh day of that is because they provide a long-term study, but I think she is an example of the delicacy of this in the heat of this is actually all to do with whether or not there is constraint on so whether or not there is now one good diet.

I think the diversity of diet and diversity of land use is a critical principle to hang onto and the the academic dataset.

Understanding talking and looking at the experts who really do look at this area.

It's pretty clear that an excessive amount of meat and and an obsession about me coming back is really slightly bonkers actually we got to be a bit more accepting that the really the core positive message about land use and health and Environment horticulture even as we bring down animal culture, did you think Kirsty Wark challenged them sufficiently well, I can't comment on that she's experienced presenter certainly engage in these arguments endlessly, and I'm very happy suddenly someone to be used as a foil for other views, I think but it's week is a program which is representing and discussing particular books so I think it's an occasion wear book writers can have their say but having said that the point of feedback has to rebuff.

Say well, there are the views as well actually finally do you think the relevant points all of them were made in that discussion John Blythe series of particular points do thinks many import points will missing.

Oh yes clearly because it's a very complicated issue.

I mean how can one do Justice to it even eyes and Academic has looked at this area for a very long time.

I don't do research and it but I'm very interested because of the policy implications and what do we advise consumers to do and the diversity of diet is actually one of the really good things that happened in Britain and the last 4550 years veganism come in from the really extreme and marginal cold into if not a warm room at least it's in the room now and I think that's interesting but at the same time the researchers going to undoubtedly difficulties and advantages in all forms of tired but so I'm someone who says long live the debate about these issues and

Kirsty Wark said instruction that food fans are nothing new with the implication that veganism is a fad what you'll be about that is it a fan.

I think that's very unfair determinism has become much more respectable now and people don't accuse her of being a fat not least because huge swathes of the world are vegetarian and and have been for centuries.

I think to say veganism is a fad is a bit demeaning my thanks to Tim Lang professor of food policy at city university in London and have courage Radio 4 listeners to try out other networks and programs to which they would not usually listen.

Each week we asked to BBC Radio listeners to step out of their comfort zone's and listen to a programme.

They wouldn't normally do so this week.

We have Susan Hornby from Southport and James phelan from Northallerton in the Yorkshire North Yorkshire publishing say thank you both Johnny is a James just get a sense of what you're listening have it Tuesday or what were the top 3 programmes if you were stranded on a desert island and it will be very difficult to choose because there's so much good on BBC Radio that mattresses would be all night with dotun Adebayo is wonderful Inside Science particularly with Adam Rutherford is biologist very witty and Life Scientific with Jim al-khalili who really luminous mysteries of science to me.

You have Insomnia do you sometimes when I wake up and it turns on I will listen to him and I can't go back to sleep again.

How about you soon? Xx

Programs like James I like a lot of radio programs, but supposed to choose it would be the Archers any BBC comedy but particularly things in the morning and a fat and the reunion well listen to 5 live breakfast broadcast every day from 6 a.m.

And the program you listen to what is on Friday the 18th of October you normally present in the Today programme Radio 4 released in response to a world trade organisation ruling that the European Union illegally subsided the playmaker Airbus I was just thinking about the single malt gods and Scotland's first minister Nicola Sturgeon so what's it all about Rachel I don't know.

Yes, we're gonna tell you about the between the presenters on I thought it was good at first.

It's very informal but the boat strong personalities.

They sound like powles it was very informal much more informal and the day pro but after a while.

It works.

I enjoyed it and James to do enjoyed I did yeah.

I agree that Nicky and Rachel seem to have a bit of banter together.

We don't get on the same day programme.

Did you get the impression Susan that 5ly was very much a domestic network preoccupied with domestic stories.

I think it was a strange day because it was the day after the brexit deal was fine with Boris Johnson and

But what I found listening to both programs there were two interviews that were on both programs.

They were with John McDonnell and Katya Adler and I found that the five live interviews where more informative both people were allowed to finish a thought before the next question was as they didn't do anything but they were allowed to complete a sentence to complete the thought which they went on Radio 4 James I think to some extent I agree with Susan to the extent five live with given more room to talk.

I'm the one that got me was the top of the head from Birmingham University from the centre for brexit studies called Alex the router and he was just allowed to talk about what he found was the significance of the Bastille he wasn't really pushed on anything.

He said during it and it seems to go on and on.

Informative and very well done, but on the Today programme you wouldn't have got that you would have had them question him and him giving answers to the their questions so there seems to be a bit of a difference between Susan like to show like the style.

You have James want more authoritative in-depth interview is that a fair summary? Yeah, I was an interesting program and I like licking Campbell and Rachel Burden they were young go well together, but there just wasn't a great deal of news apart from brexit the Jo jingles and the the music from The Final Countdown was played all the time incessantly and Valley end of the program having listened to do it again.

I hate the montage.

Your voice is over The Final Countdown I thought that was awful.

I do think that this deal represents a very good deal both for the EU and for the UK and it's ok fine.

Can you on the home choose to listen to the Today programme Radio 4 is there any possibility after listening to five live that you switch across a few times? How about you Susan definitely instead of switching off when the Today programme annoys me.

I will reach you and what about you James no definitely not in the matter.

How bad is it a program comes Susan James thank you very much.

Well do Sue and James Hughes reflect Thursday's Rachel figures which measure how many people are listening and 2 watt but radio and Radio 4 audience have dropped slightly you're on you but Radio 2 Breakfast Show now presented by Zoe Ball recorded its lowest figures for a decade it remains however the popular show in its time slot her predecessor Chris Evans move to Virgin Radio but despite much marketing is audience remained stuck at 1.1 million only 8/7 of

Successor a Radio 2 and podcast are on the rise with 8.4 million business up from 6 million from the same time as last year mind you these figures are dwarfed by the number those listening to live Radio 2.

Please let us know if you would like to take part in or out of your comfort zone feature or indeed become part of our listener panel here's how you can send an email to feedback at bbc.co.uk or write a letter the address is feedback PO Box 67234 London se1p 4ax you can follow activity on Twitter by using at BBC R4 feedback or you can call us and leave a phone message on 03345 for standard landline charges apply, but it could cost more on some mobile networks of those details are on our website.

Can you should you believe all you hear or see in the news? That's what this is here to do.

We want to set the record straight hello, I'm joking and I'm co-producer Chloe had my phone which has just ended on BBC Radio 4 Revisited for stories which were in the headlines and examine whether they stood up over time produced and presented by Jo fidgen and Chloe hadjimatheou it made for disturbing listening remember the Times headlines a few years ago Christian child forced into Muslim foster care and the so-called fracking protest to Balcombe the series suggested that reality and reporting diverged on occasions and the Producers also detected their own journalistic decisions when making their programs there has been considerable praise.

Directions but also some critical comments here is a selection and some clips from the series Norman from New Malden I've just finished listening to the full programme correction series and wish to say have a fantastic informative site have been and beautifully and carefully presented by especially like the undramatic Loki presentation of Joe and Chloe presenters and commend them for the clarity of presentation the last longer program with magnificent and riveting it was reflected as an assistant producer wood chip in and make it clear the constraints under which the corrections itself was being made saying things like we've got some important to put across but only 8 minutes to do it now happens.

We went back to the newspaper a final time to offer a right of reply and to our surprise they changed them.

And said we could have 10-minutes with Andrew Norfolk after all we got a bit more than 10 minutes in the end, but it gave us a problem.

We just didn't have enough space left in the program and we didn't think it would be right to chop the interview into little bits and risk simplifying it through compression which is one of the problems.

We've been highlighting all through the series and a call to the boss of me and asked for more time and a second surprise.

He said yes give us another 15 minutes Stephanie Hammond I'm feeling very distressed in the carbonara case the Times reporter was subjected to an apprentice inquisition by the present in journalist.

He obviously was and is a professional journalist reporting a sense of concern for 5-year old girl not correction but vilification of an individual trying to do his job.

Did you follow the media coverage while you were working on site?

Yes, I did yes, what did you make it misleading?

What is surprise you to hear there was no fracking at Balcombe there's no permission to Frank had wanted to Frank it would have needed a different permit.

So why did the Battle of such a huge national story and customer Quarter and I live in the village of Balcombe it was based on a false premise that we local and income of protesters in Balcombe in the summer of 2013 were foolish who didn't realise that quote no fracking was planned in 2013 for Balcombe on the contrary.

We knew very well that the endgame was fracking planning permission happens in stages.

We had every reason to Protest the presenters town was unbelievably scornful suggesting that we can pay us and protesters were ignorant and that the press was.

No one in Vulcan was interviewed from the corrections was available this week to talk to us, but I will be talking to a representative of the program in next week's feedback however earlier.

I talk to journalism professor Charlie Beckett from the LSE and I put him some of Catherine mcwhirters concerns first that the demonstrators themselves were not interviewed for the program.

Did you think that was wrong? I think it might have been wrong.

I mean this is a programme about the journalism coverage rather than the issues themselves, but it did seem that in a way that this program demonstrated perhaps unconsciously the program making can be flawed and it's very difficult to cover all the bases in a sense because it was pursuing a thesis perhaps it was overly counterintuitive itself Catherine also said she felt that his turn was unbelievably suggesting that we protesters were ignorant and the press was fix.

That your information is always really difficult when you're being critical that you don't adopt a rather than a patronising approach.

It's a problem.

We have as a media professor.

You don't want to sound patronizing or partisan.

I think this one perhaps strayed into giving that kind of emotional sense and in again in that sense.

It's kind of reflects the hazards of program making let's move on to the carbonara case so-called which looked at the story published in the times in August 2017 with the headline Christian child forced into Muslim foster care listener Stephanie haven't felt that the Times journalist Andrew Norfolk was very fine.

He was certainly uncomfortable at was a verified identity verified.

I think Norfolk gave an absolutely stunning interview which was very candid and yet it showed that this was a decent professional who had tried to do a story here.

And I thought that giving him that time but absolutely vital for him to acknowledge if you like the mistakes, but to make his case and in that sense by giving them that extra time I worry about how they might have had to deal with it if they had to just drop in a couple of quotes it wasn't just a series trying to sort of pick fault and the screen guilty it show the context that these journalists operating the lack of resources in the lack of time and also the pressure from the public who want to know everything do you think they would learn something about the process of journalism which was very necessary when people are listening or Reading so they can make proper judgements about headlines that sometimes Scream at them exactly.

I thought a good Media literacy lesson in the way.

I mean we have programs like feedback, but generally speaking a modern Media criticism now happens in a very frantic way on social media.

So this was a chance.

Trying on pick the process that lies behind it and the larger idea that lies behind it.

I suspect this as was made clear in the programming was why they used some you like John York as a narrative consultant.

It was that there is certain basic stories and the danger is the facts are as adapted if you like or used to support the thesis that has already been determined and that people go looking for only those facts which will support the predetermined article or program a bit like that fixes holds up, but I think it does in the sense that journalism is an imperfect craft working against deadlines inevitably has to adopt formula and it makes assumptions as well as to uncover facts.

We're kinda lucky in this country that we have reasonable diversity, so we heard in that series not just different versions of a story but different.

Journalism itself in the Daily Mail and the BBC have been quite different approaches and what this program helps us to do is to understand that and perhaps enable us to better choices about what we believe if you are the controller Radio 4.

What do you recondition this series? I would have thought it was interesting that it was experimental in itself.

It was trying at least to be transparent to try and show some of its own workings and sometimes that felt a little clunky as we've seen it wasn't a flawless piece of work, but I think that was part of the purpose of this.

It wasn't just to hold this account for big mistakes.

It was trying to get the listener to engaging is rather complex and contradictory of journalism our thanks to journalism professor Charlie Beckett from the LSE and of course you don't have to wait months or years before scrutinising new stories next week will be discussing can't.

When Gavin Allen BBC head of news output comes onto the program to answer any questions you want to put him so in the immortal words of Delia Smith in her guys as owner of Norwich club, let's be having you we will of course be interfering exercising proper editorial control in deciding which are the best comments and then probably editing some of them down at the interview with Gavin Allen which giving your concerns and my verbosity will probably have to be cut from 20-minutes down to around 8 inevitably will get something wrong and leave some bruises to err is human to forgive is divine please do until next week to buy.