Read this: Media Masters - Kate Ward

Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game international president of refinery29 head of commercial production company Shine TV she started her career at the digital media business in 2015 as senior vice president and women refinery29 has over 450 employees with offices in New York Los Angeles London and Berlin it reaches a global audience of over 250 million who editorial and video programming live events and social content successes and want to the UK and Germany auditions and their marketing and creative on the 29th which helps brands appeal to women by creating video events and influencer activity in 2017.

She was named one of 35 women under 35 the UK's longest running list of young female business Talent thank you for joining me.

Thank you very much.

I have huge Imposter syndrome really not that I've done absolutely nothing.

I'm incredibly driven.

What's the secret have two very very formative experience in terms of my career so far working in companies at the top of their game first have an experience of varied experience with lots of a few different jobs along the way at the sign group under lock and Alex Mahan and then two more recently be refunded representing something that is so important for women and this moment and Culture will also really at the cutting edge of the definition of the new type of media and entertainment company so lucky me lucky and lucky us to having you as a guest at the moment shortly we can actually just talked about refinery29 so I've never heard of it.

They might be if you don't have a sufficient.

What is finally 29 is a media and entertainment company women's we have a really clear mission to represent progress Spire and

And we do that through really simply telling stories and creating experiences.

We really were founded in 2005 in North America by four friends and they built a best-in-class digital publishing business writing articles and creating content.

We've since moved into video live events were in the future film business and we have created a fully diversified media company recreating.

This is a very mission focused purpose driven content for women and what's the Genesis of the Refinery 29 is called refinery29 because we began life actually as a as a shopping product.

It was a kind of create your own more creating independent retailers and there were 29 spaces in this mall and so it was refinery29 and you can filter by different types of shops.

You can also filter men and women it wasn't it wasn't just for women.

Interesting stories are awful cough and Justin Stefano Christian ulbricht all for him still in business today by the way they started creating content about these drops and flocked to the content and it became it kind of took off at more than actually e-commerce solution, so that's that stop it into becoming a media company because the name stuck at that point you are bound by it came out it became an iconic name and a lot of people ask me what why refinery29 and I am that's the real story.

I'm sure that there's some submitter Legends out there, but that's the story unfolded 50 staff and they reach over 250 million.

I mean that does an incredible numbers.

How did you get to that? There's a lot of sophistication that comes with building a huge digital audience but things really going on in the in the secret to refineries exist.

I think the first and the most important by far is that we have a very very clear mission were mission driven come.

Very specific audience segment of talking to the young women really are call audiences of 16 to 3540 and that really kind of that real Focus has given us a huge and brown power refinery means something to the people that read us it it's not just about reach its reach and sort of Engagement holding hands to actually create that true with the right group of people are very talented people absolutely see you're you're really building a long-lasting meaningful relationship with them.

That's on the website like me.

I'm sure that that that they are and we welcome them to you and I'm sure there's content we cover that that might be interesting but I think what you do.

We get out of bed for everyday wear in service that caught the second thing.

How do you get to that scale? Is you know refineries been going since he doesn't fight you know that this hasn't been built overnight this isn't.

A flash in the pan Story This is been years and years of only kind of honing crafting skill diversification and it's been a long road to get us there and every single years that we've done five or six big new Innovations and jumps forward so I think it's a bit like doggy is actually probably refinery and what are they touch points than any of your reader's what's important? I think about you know we've really but I really really really really really really important part of our products and of course we also publish the places so all the social channels.

We were one of the original partners of course Facebook Twitter and Pinterest and community and Pinterest board of course a really striving Instagram but we also some taken that direct-to-consumer approach and taking it further so

Events at huge part of what we do you have an amazing email product we have over 2 million email subscribers, so we created Super diverse set of touch, so you might find us initially through Snapchat but then you'll end up to scribers the newsletter or you might be a real fan of one of our live events and from that you start following US on Instagram and that leads you back to the stickiness keypad programming all those places individually so you're always thinking about what is the right story for the right platform.

How does that match to the audience when they want to get it really buildings connection moments in a platform-specific way or Channel specific way and then is the thing that elevates and creates that deep next level of Engagement in the UK

Excalibur refinery29 of success what what makes the fact that you can stay for Sunday sadly couldn't you know I think there isn't anyone who is in women's medium it didn't feel like very sad to Liverpool and lots of great people there and lots of content that came from that team and it's obviously like not not anything you want to read what the media but also women's me.

It's not it's a sad story, but I would say refinery a point of difference.

I think we just a completely different scale in terms of our recent times the size of an audience because we're part of Us global back.

We where able to benefit from rating content globally We Share content between auditions in Germany and UK in the US and soon we're going to be launching as well, so we're really able to kind of maximize the impact of our global network and global storytelling were able to be really strategic about big moments and then have

Always on diet of Media cycling news breaking stuff actually really kind of well-organized between or international offices.

I think it gives us a lot of strength.

I think we also gives us a lot of strength commercially is the you know we have a very very significant business in North America and we've been going as I've said already for for many years and so we have incredible history with the world's biggest you know chomping at the bit for us to launch international is one of the reasons that Phillip and Justin really imparts his present and that I came in was because we just had saved them on so I think we had great support partners great support from our audience and we have an operation that really is it scale and I think that will give us a great advantage and how do you monetize your relationship with your reader's is it purely that the great relationship you have with advertisers or are you doing? We've seen lots of other digital brands diversifying to you know having events and apps and you know it doesn't need two houses.

Yes, Sue the story of our revenue really is definitely one of diversification before we talk about the replication probably good to spend a bit of time on there is still the majority of what we do successful partnerships with brands.

It has the primary revenue driver refinery.

Why do I think we are able to do really well and that's basically International Business you know we grew 100% last year in terms of revenue were going to do this year or more.

I think really brand trust is a big thing you know people are really looking for those trusted partners quality content and safe environments but also I think product editorially we always talk a lot of you know origins are in shopping.

We've always had that mixture of Culture commerce of style and substance people come to.

Read to discover they read about new products new businesses and stories of female success and so branded content that is authentically you need to be for them with the Refinery Turner voice which is absolutely what we do is really really seamless for audience and we don't it's not as if they shy away from it if that they really lean into it, so we have been successful because we created that really powerful brands safe place to be and we superserver audience with content that actually get a love and they just happened to the bodies brand partners outside of our advertising business.

We have done a lot of diversification in all sorts of different ways videos been a big thing of course you know the moving into videos been well trodden by media companies, but I think what refinery has done is taking it to a whole new level and thinking about these big bold original programming strategies.

Amazing series called chatterbox, which is really a platform for female filmmakers short films to we've won awards at Cannes Sundance we had films going all over the world we now have two feature films in development based on their shorts and actually do this but I think that ambition we're here to create culture defining content and so original premium television film video programming is absolutely we've been like super charging on our business in North America and I hope I will be able to do the same here to events to is it it's just become a huge part of our story important because events really are content creation moments now.

I think I don't know if you see this what you think but we?

Find me about events this url to IRL how do you bring that digital into the real anyone in real life? How do you bring me that the online into the real world actually understands everything is you sort of don't want to use it but then once you've heard you can't ever on here.

It's so clever.

That's super important and really expiring inspiring exciting.

We did his community events.

We do at least one month if not more in the UK and tons in the US everything from comedy nights in an amazing week of content about female pleasure in Sex and we had this amazing event where people came and they learnt about technology and sex and cool sex toys.

It was incredible to see the audience.

They're talking showing openly a completely different thing.

We might have a panel discussion about skin and skin positivity through our recurring series skin Deep

This is a chance to talk to all used to see them for them to see asked us to builders Direct relationships and on a completely different scales that in North America with 20 switches like archive experiential Super Bowl I guess you call it is an IRL this is like a huge thing it began actually is our 10th anniversary party Warehouse in Brooklyn and week after up into 29 rooms and each room was a different experience created by an artist some of them with brand partners some not and ended up St Aldates come along we had queued round the block at last year.

We did it in 4 cities in North America so they were 100000 tickets reach 1 into users on Instagram and really has defined the kind of inverse of experiential training that you're seeing all over the world and now we've just actually done a partnership with IMG so we're going to be bringing it to the to the international market scene.

Hopefully, yeah, yeah hopefully racing next year so it's really really exciting competing for attention in the same space as you are for example Instagram and Facebook we we had a lot of people in that chair that say they have a relationship akin to a friend me that you know you're populating your Facebook page with content but the Facebook and getting the advert revenue.

How does that work like something that you've done on Instagram how do you monetize that there's a question about competitive sex? I think it's a really interesting one and you know it's something that you know we talked about a lot and I think you know it's one of the things that that is really important and unique about refinery.

I think we sort of sick is a category on our own we come from the digital first digital publisher nimble startup culture world.

Text acqui, you know we grew like a start-up it it that's what it feels like that the bars and the culture what attracts the great Talent and in that sense you have a few competitors that digital players maybe it's voice or some of the other that those names at the same time.

We've built a brand that has the sort of brand Power the way and and and the credibility of traditional media company whether it's going to broadcast or whether it's glossy magazine glamour or maybe a wired or whatever and so we sit in the middle of those two things and so I think probably we've got competitors everywhere.

Yeah, I saw also feel we have not because what refinery has done and be doing you know over many many years is really delivering this very focused very mission driven totally unique message about.

Women a positive optimistic perspective where we championair individuality with a catalyst for them to claim their power as opposed to sort of dishing out the media gift we've been consistent in working with the best Talent in championing diversity in challenging ideas representation and on that level I feel that that we stand alone to set that thing.

I would say it's that I think the media will probably like to think that that's all sort of you know handbags at Dawn but you know we have all of us work and media industry and it's an industry for friends.

You know we have friends.

How's that working all company so I think we're all kind of very much more friends and frenemies at the end of the day and on the social media site.

It's really clear that there's no media company but that isn't using.

Connect with audiences that are out there and of course you Facebook Instagram YouTube Twitter Snapchat important parts of audiences behaviours when a Sikh and consume content getting the money for the adverts on that Facebook page clearly it wouldn't it's not a surprise to hear that we less focused in some ways and terms of audience profile there than we haven't before our own and operating environment.

I think it's always been super super important to ask but in terms of revenue.

You know we just outlined diversification story think about the video think about our events business.

We haven't really touched on our creator concert practice the 29th build a picture of a diversified media and entertainment company not one that is super focus on one platform and you have that agility cos frankly.

The printing press you know you've emerged as a truly digital proposition that digital first startup mindset the idea to be true creative entrepreneurs absolutely and audience that is really just a huge huge part of our culture and part of our success.

What's your job then? What do you actually do question why my role as president of the International Business so that means that I oversee all aspects of the business outside the us, so so international from us interactive you basically.

I'm really my my role is to oversee all of the different departments refinery29 so amazing revenue commercial teams.

Incredible editorial and content marketing and PR and operations and can I do that with an amazing team who we've been lucky enough to build over the last 3/2 years if really the question of what I do.

All day is I think about three things for refinery reach Revenue and relevance.

How do I bring those 3 oz together to expand and grow our business through reading writing and arithmetic fame and fortune to be having two out of three I think how do you do that?

Audience connection and expand it getting more eyeballs.

I'm listening to this podcast is very influential international edition, so we've launched in Germany with the German language edition with seems to be launching in in France with French language Edition and then cause we have our UK edition we hoped coming soon be truly localise content that should be French people writing French content in French in France French people speakers trans creating so what is a Curate from global content pool if you like, I'll library we have an amazing team in the UK and us today creating huge amount of content and are German and French teams they work together.

Use data social listening to identify the stories that the audience in those countries are most interested in and we transfer rate them create word for me you giving them what they wanted caused by using the metrics that that's actually helping curated experience is relevant to then, that's what they want 100% and then the reason rather than translation is because with tweaking with localising we used to talk about the difference between you know roommates and flatmates and that's in the English language.

So we always make sure that the tone is completely right this isn't just a case of automated translation is really amazing writers and journalists who are really putting it in the town that is relevant for that audience as well as creation and they are so Talented I mean real head of transpiration unbelievably passionate and talented writer and journalist who just happens to be the most brilliant linguist as well and so we're really that's a really important part of super serving those audiences.

If you're in Germany want to be able to read refinery29 in your native language because it because your understanding and the richness and your experience and that is there rewarded with your loyalty and that really is what that kind of Reach expansion is about I guess it's also about thinking about new channels new partnerships in the UK we've been doing some work with a clipboard recently which she might not expect but we just had a really really great partnership with them.

So it will be using that to reach new people so we always thinking about partnerships and how do we get our content so that's reach revenue without business and how do we grow old we grow our business and our business we don't really really successful growing international business growth last year and it will get down to brass tacks.

What is it? What is it you doing was it you're not doing so probably you guys from the outside you might assume that our business is very much focused exclusively on brands that you might think it must be just fashion and beauty brands that one advertising refinery and the reality is what we are here to do is to show advertisers are powerful relationships with women move the business forward so advertising partners are massively diverse.

We've done amazing work in a text in a finance space.

I'm really excited about some developments in auto.

You know you might not think we have a 12-month partnership with Rightmove it's been incredible for them to understand why how talking to women specifically can drive massive results for them as well as creating content that frankly all the love and flock to organically at the same time with doing really.

Legacy building branded content that we having long and returning relationships with our partners Adidas we've done everything from running clubs to creating content Braun we just different campaign about hair removal and refit the Paris Lee's as one of the UK's most influential and trans activists and voices and the honesty with which he spoke the response that the DJ that content just incredibly powerful.

So how we going already business one we're going because we really trying to say to the advertising community makes great business sense to talk to women with purposeful communications and in fact.

I would go as far as to argue that the Browns today.

It's going to be a determination of relevance for you and the future of your brand women drive 85% of purchasing decisions yet 54% of our audience so that they feel the advertising gets it wrong when talking to them so, how can we be that? How can we create the environments?

The quality content with deep cultural resonance to be that partner to advertise it when you said partner then your educating your advertised as well in terms of how to you not just taking your 100% the way that I think we have always you know dum dum business refinery we see this is true partnerships because for it to be fantastic day and we recognise that the brass can have to go but outside their comfort zone and they're going to be coming into the Refinery well, but it's also a true partnership.

It really is being that guy.

I've been at sounding board and ultimately helping them move their businesses forward and because that's really what we want to do.

We will help them build their businesses and their brands and we want to do that to happen with women influential and I'm really really important audience.

Really really important that they come to us to get that that right and I think we also do really clever things with data insights and trend reporting that give that an extra layer, but it's not just about great content.

It's about what's behind that in terms of understanding of that consumer behaviour and III are was relevance 100-percent because I think build the reach in the revenue for business it all sits on the mission of refinery29 and the ability of us to drive that relevance has the place that is Excel elevating women stories.

That's really truly progressing representing women I mean in the UK you know we've done some incredible work.

We did this big campaign called stops uber upskirting.

Where can I buy Gina Martin you know supporting her from the very start her campaign all the way through to see the law get changed in the House of Lords congratulations amazing.

I take no credit for me.

They're incredible and that really is creating like real world change right.

We did another brilliant piece of programming earlier this year and cold lonely girls club.

It was basically talking about female only messing.

How do you know the internet? It could be this double edge sword on the one hand social media provides these actually Havens a building community on the other hand it's what makes some people feel and further away from reality incredible kind of week-long programming moment fast interestingly started from one story that that we wrote and the response was so huge.

We went further creating a week off the back of that response has been huge and now we know that people having lonely girl meetups around the country and actually starting to build his connections with each other so actually it really is about that Legacy of creating content that really inspires people that that is brutally honest sometimes.

It's painful that makes you think and question and challenges your perception, but ultimately.

Who is the voice of optimism about this moment in culture for women that is so powerful and and really inspires and how do you hear from your readers and how you connect with them that mean you got the metrics.

You know what happened there, but do you have any kind of qualitative relationship with him as well as quantitative.

Do I think it's one of the things that I think you no secrets to success for refinery is no we understand our audience and credibly well, so obviously we have you no comments and that community moment in the when you publish content but we also have so we have about 15000 women around the world that we talk to every single day and we we talked about everything from from creative ideas and what they want to hear from US to what they think of areas of Opportunity whether it's brand work or what they think about their relationships.

We we've done really interesting things with some of our partners around product.

Really becomes it's a very very rich first Party data source and what's really cool.

I should say is that all of the people that are on this this platform we call it mad chatter don't ask me why it's called that.

I don't have a cover story for is that they are not in themselves.

It's completely superfans of refinery is the people that love the brands that love the mission and I want to feel like they're part of shaping.

It's not a sign up and we'll send you a gift so discount.

So it is truly an organic conversation having direct to the audience in their thousands and that inside flows both ways doesn't sharing that with clients you've created a marketing and creative consultancy call the 29th which helps brands creating videos and events and social influencer activity has that the 29th really has been born from this idea that there we had relationships that wants to go beyond branded and a co-branded content.

Wanted to really understand how we could be there Partners in creating different kinds of content and experiences and also strategic platform for them, so we've done a range of different projects.

I think one of the first things that we did which was really exciting was that we worked with Helena Santos and you and women to create the visual identity for stereotype Alliance which is an amazing cross brand Alliance that's all about reading advertising from stereotypes.

We work with an amazing artist Jessica Walsh to create their visual identity and their launch moment can a couple of years ago including flying the unstereotype alliance flag of the palais super super cool recently.

We've been working with Walgreens boots alliance.

We are and working with them as their agency across some of their brands.

Including their cosmetics and skincare brands sleep being one of them and it was super super proud that work in that we doing really helping them content creation but also kind of help giving up publisher mindset and and that really thinking of behaving like a publisher and I've been able to do some really really exciting work creative work with them that you know as well as part of organs responses seen in store and as well as digitally and it's been an incredible partnership.

We really really proud of him really interesting work with Samsung this and I came to us for the 10th anniversary of the Galaxy S10 to think about how can we really be their partners in their own experiential strategy so we created an experiential Toolkit for them and and and that event which was in Westfield recently is going to go to 10 markets around the world so that builds for march of 29 rooms experience really what we're here to.

To give our brand partners, you know the tools that we use for ourselves as well as a specific audience Focus and really giving them those big strategic bacon owner cover conversation and where you know probably their partners in doing that and in doing so creating better more their first more representative content for women how important is the backing of the upp giant you're helping refinery29 save video on demand got an amazing board of brilliant partners.

I think you know personally I feel extremely lucky to you.

No have great relationships with you know with all members and benefit from their I think the reality is that we peer investing in businesses and and and you know there's no commercial impact in a we got there and we compete alongside any other media publisher so

Sadly significant difference in that respect what I think it does is I think it feels great connections person speaking always had an amazing relationship with them and so many inspiring people and also you know incredible inspiring women that work in that organisation Lindsay Paterson karabakh it to name a few and you know always been very very great support 8 years of the shine group working across commercial and strategy roles at what was Elizabeth made up like to work with inspirational incredible huge amount about champion and creativity.

I not lucky enough to be creative Creator on my own.

I wish I wish that I was talented enough to write an amazing film script or produce an amazing drama or make MasterChef and be an editor on Masterchef but that was not my particular fate but Liz

Was the Champion of great ideas she was absolutely leave her in big ideas the ability for for for them to travel she talked passionately about this idea without borders and building sign is this global network production companies that we could share IP and ideas irrespective of geography of language not concerned about our own micro thinking about how we could collaborate and build massive franchises and that remains a kind of guiding inspiration for me as we think about as I think about building brands and and the power of big huge.

She should say as Alex man who I was also very very lucky.

I work for Alex for years and years and years and has been and remains a great teacher and friend and taught me a huge amount about business and management about will be trying to get on the podcast.

She took the job Channel 4 if you could put a word I'm seeing her tomorrow.

So I will I will let her know she has been you know I could not have been more tea.

Have worked for them and to be part of the journey of that company which was so special and to you know I remain so proud of being a tiny tiny tiny.

Cog in a wheel for my something like MasterChef because it's you know what generation having a bit like that, but it sounds like you've had an incredible array of female mentors and role models that have inspired you doing the Crane and enabled you.

I think that's true.

So I would say the whole time.

I've been reported to two men Philip and Justin our co-founder and co-ceo so not as good as women then having a bit of being managed by.

Interesting all the time and this idea of female leadership and Men it's not a female issue getting female Talent to leave businesses.

It's actually sick and sponsorship and belief right and I had amazing female leaders and seem great do amazing things at shine.

I share that refinery29 where I work in a predominantly female moment and I am inspired by our staff are co-founders Peter and Christine are CFO officer and president of North America Amy we have amazing female role models and I certainly when I went off and had my my baby you know I was lucky that I could call and say god.

What's it going to be like and I'm going to be ok to have that honesty but I would also say that you have worked for the past and done been very proud of what I have achieved and

My biggest champions and so I don't think it has anything to do with gender.

I think it's just good luck and great people and working with people you really like Andrea respects.

I think that's probably for me anyway.

That's really been the key well.

I mean good luck certainly played a part in it, but you're clearly very bright very able and very hard-working.

What would you say? It's been the kind of major career turning points then, how did you start off on this journey? What did you want to do when you when you started? You're finished your studies PhD and I was going to go and do I was going to go to be an academic and then I realised that the thing that I was interested in like I might be the only person in the world that like was interested in and there was a potential that I'd have to go and learn and evil German I didn't even speak normal jam and so so that was a bit of a stretch and then I didn't really know what else to do, but I really need A Tale of Two telly and I really like popular culture.

I'm a real kind of hi-lo kind of

Super mediaeval German to go to the BBC and present history documentaries, that's what I want to do and I applied for so many jobs at BBC I didn't get any of them and I was devastated and anyway.

I found myself at tvf why realise I thought I was doing one thing but actually turns out.

I was doing sales and I was a sales executive and sold the international rights to documentaries to cable channels in Eastern Europe and my feet and that's what I did for cold cold cable channels and selling an about rights and about this idea of ideas travelling to different countries and changing as they do and and so that was the Education but I think ultimately.

When I read about this idea of what is building for a cultural perspective that was really what made me desperate to go and pretty much sorted Alex Meyer until she gave me a job from traditional TV to digital it was quite a brave thing to do because to be honest I had no background at all and publishing Ltd background in digital overhead expense of you, but I hadn't ever been on the under publishing side in some ways.

It was quite a kind of risky risky thing to do and certainly probably more risky for my bosses to be fat, but what connect me to it was that the Mission of refinery was so unique and so powerful and so meaningful to me and I always felt that shine again successful, because I was just a fan who was a super fan of television as a super fan of what we made and never miss an episode of MasterChef literally ever even though you may

Literally some fungal you must produce as we might just loved it last night when you did that cut and it was like this and I loved it and I felt exactly the same way about refinery for a really really long time.

I had been reading refinery 2009 so really early on in their journey, because I lived for a period in Los Angeles in my friends find out about it 7 years and years later to get a phone call saying that's because you've had of refinery29.

It was have I heard of them I get the email.

I love this brand.

I love it.

It's coming to London how can I be involved so I think that's probably the leap of Faith is the thing that you're working on it.

Love love love what you do.

I do so and you didn't because you didn't use to be there and I did I've done bits of study there and I lived in La on and off for 1280 months and I love them.

I kind of like to LA the week which is quite a trek actually like we did every 6-weeks for 6-weeks.

Yeah.

I do 6 weeks.

Then we can under them back and it was quite a lot, but obviously love New York Financial costing you loving you but it's like a different world the moment la traffic is something to behold now.

I just been up because even end up paying so much invalid charges uber everywhere.

That's how long ago is there so I know I I I

Yeah, as you can get me within 2 minutes.

Where is in New York if you even if it was a block away you think that'll be 15 minutes walk to it.

So what's next for you when you want to find the 2019 Germany what are there any future expansion plans in the Works and growing that dedication? I'll be a business and that premium original content more clients for the 29th and lots of exciting conversation and then 29rooms super excited to be working with IMG to bring that to Europe and beyond next year so I think there's a lot going on.

I think you know ask me what excited it will be a story or article or the team get you know where what gets me.

So that's what really gets me excited.

Incredible group of people with symbol, do you know when I first started at refinery? It was literally me in my house.

We have no staff no office nothing and you know I look around 70 people in London and got 15 billion and you know it is as we moved offices at beginning of this year and I'm not afraid to say that I sort of walked in and had a bit of a blow up because I just can't believe it.

So yeah, that's what that's what it looks like to me really so what's a typical week then in terms of your role as a new engine a 3 hours, but if it was more of a traditional newspaper you have an editor-in-chief on the content managing director or managing editor on the business side due kind of do both so I definitely where both hats but the truth is that manage hopefully support and an ad to the people that that goes well so in the UK we've got Gillian or his or her head of content incredible oversees all of our editorial.

And really sets the tone and editorial sensory got Jacqui Kavanagh who is unbelievable commercial leader who oversees our revenue George Mitchell brilliant and looks after all operations and untame or Riley who looks after audience and that global publishing strategy to talk about so my job really is to work with them to be there sounding board to set strategy and help them execute it how I spend my day is with clients meeting people talking about refinery meeting Talent and will always have great Talent to the business really been helping them move things forward alongside that you know it's great to have to try and impose myself as much as possible on team meeting sneaking into an editorial meeting with the sales meeting and trying to you know make sure that as we grow you know will.

You know I'm staying close to to all the business and the time that we have in it and then of course and life is an existential question and opportunity because they don't if brands did that would they seek to exist or not because we do what we do for audience right because you are unique because they need to the audience and Partners but I'm missing and what we're here to do in terms of culture and Society isn't that's not what it's purposes was interesting.

I guess I sometimes think about you know refinery is a bit like the stone that drops in the puddle.

What we do is we talk to young women but week.

Ripples that can impact everyone and that can change everything whether it's marketing communications and how people think about talking to women or whether it's like experiential and what was number 29 rooms this inspired you know so many things from that or whether it's content creation stories that we tell telling that we champion or writers that get their first job that's in Garland that's the kind of wider contribution right, so would we be able to exist I hope not I think I don't think this now.

I'm at existential.

No, thank you ever so much to be honest when they usually enjoyable conversation.

Thank you very much for having me an absolute pleasure podcast in association with big things Media