Read this: 21/06/2019 Radio 4 Feedback

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts parachute opinion profoundly at odds with what is generally accepted well Victoria Coren Mitchell's Radio 4 comedy series has certainly been living up to its title the world turned upside down when the BBC which is supposed to be one of the pillars of society only have together but that's so cool comedy about 3 actually to people's faces.

Just thought of replacing milkshakes with acid as projectiles came from panel is Jo Brand it was a joke too far for some that calmed mean it can't mean that you should be able to stay in this program.

Just anything you like I'll be talking to a form of BBC trustee and chair of the trust complaints and appeals board Richard Eyre about the delicate balance between comedy of fence and free speech and will be picking his brains about the BBC's plans to withdraw.

Free TV licences from most over 75's that hasn't gone down well either some listeners have an alternative a massive reduction radio channel should also be considered out that could be career threatening last week.

We talked about elections European parliamentary and party this week will be airing the second part of our interview with Jonathan Munro head of BBC newsgathering and asking whether he is at 1 with Edith Piaf je ne regrette rien.

I don't think it can be right for us to say that something which is contentious is wrong and the first of a new feedback feature in which we put listeners out of their comfort zone.

We have forced to volunteers to listen to 5 Live's Kermode and mayo's film review I think Mum is an absolute star indeed.

I'd say that Mark Kermode in particular is an expert and he dispenses knowledge and enthusiasm in extremely accessible way last week.

There was a

Ferrari over the comedian Joe Browns comments on the Radio 4 comedy series heresy a program where according to the BBC panel is often said things which are deliberately provocative and go against societal norms, but are not intended to be taken seriously after initially defending Joe Browns joke about replacing milkshakes with acid and after many complaints not least from Nigel Farage the BBC issued a clarification it noted that the strong reaction to the joke edited it out from the version of billable on sounds and expressed regret for any offence we have caused many listeners said they were indeed offended so should some subjects be off-limits here are some extracts and reflections From You on the original program hosted by Victoria Coren Mitchell it is of course necessary to broadcast Joe Browns words so that you can hear what the fuss is about.

Show the challenges received Wisdom and crashes the party of lazy thinking and response to a question about the terrible time in politics that the country is experiencing Jo Brand said I think that's because certain unpleasant characters are being thrown to the floor and they're very very easy to hate and I'm kind of thinking why bother with a milkshake when you could get some battery acid to do it earlier today, but I think milkshakes the prophetic sorry to Leonard London how this got past the BBC editor beggars belief Jo Brand should be dropped by the BBC as quickly as other beyond the pale personalities have been.

It's well past time.

Issue an instruction to avoid any jokes involving violence towards politicians is Jo Cox so easily forgotten side down when the BBC which is supposed to be one of the pillars of society ugliest together, but that so-called comedy about three acid into people's faces well Nigel Farage should I can't stand with his empty populist rhetoric is the one who protects that such as sarin acceptable Karen Kelly I didn't find Jo Brand steak about battery acid funny, but then I've never found a particularly funny, but demon had a gay hate crime.

Have you lost the ability to see when I buy Jake is just a bad joke? I was listening live last week.

When Joe Brown make a comments and I was not in the least bit upset as I understood she was only making a joke for Victoria Coren Mitchell herself Jewish also took a risk with the following joke.

Terrible thing in my family is my great uncle died in a concentration camp Coffee Watchtower she didn't he died in a concentration camp having been taken away from his home with his children.

They all died.

They do I need to say that and also retrospectively justify my joke.

What if you haven't done a concentration camp I think we can hear jokes and go that was a bit of colour or that was on wise but meant well.

I don't think you would anywhere Matthew Smith support for the show is undiminished heresy is an ex and satirical Comedy Show please do not change it.

I hope the BBC can send to standby Jo Brand and a very excellent company produced on Radio 4.

I'm genuinely.

Hope I haven't given any of them.

I think it might be a setting risky time to make this series which was originally set up to test the boundaries of what it's ok to say and not say good luck us in 2019.

The trust complaints and appeals board and it did check the regulator Ofcom programme complaints committee, which it out.

Thank you for joining us.

Will you surprised that that joke was broadcast on a pretty surprised? It's like probably most of your listeners.

Of course.

I didn't hear it when it was first broadcast I was first aware of it when it was reported in the Press And I then sorted out and listen to a clip and only at the end of having listened to the clip and red all the price and the reaction did I actually listened to the whole program animal cases context is difference the distance can't do that now, because the BBC's withdrawn it but I use suggested context is also people see this is an issue a free speech.

Yeah, let's be clear.

This is not a free speech issue.

Jo Brand was not sticking to advocate in public does throwing a battery acid at politicians of course she wasn't if she had been doing so then the criminal law would indeed have come into play in the police investigation might have been worth.

This was never an issue of hate speech.

It was a question of broadcasting standards and what the audience to that program might reasonably expect to hear in a joke, but the chair as you had said I don't draw the line anyway, and you don't agree with that dear what I don't agree with that because she she she actually finished.

I think you just used the clip saying that the program was originally to set up to test the boundaries of what it is or is not ok to say that can't mean it can't mean that you should be able to stay in this program.

Just anything you like at regardless of how the audience may be hired at what she herself using example making the joke about her grandparents who died in the concentration camp falling from the Watchtower you didn't have got some she then filled in the details and and ask the question whether it was interested to know those details the fact that she was a Jew making a joke about that was also relevant wasn't it? I mean so.

Class specific question here is do you need to know the context of the remark before you can judge? Whether it is.

It's use is correct.

I'm glad you played that clip because for me it was the most interesting part of the program.

She made this joke my uncle died in the concentration camp pause he fell for a Watchtower and that first will immediately when you hear that you feel offended by the first part use Enfield relief by the second part because the implication was that her uncle was a concentration camp guard you can understand the joke, but she then went on to explain the real context and to ask the question which will have to answer does the context legitimise, what would otherwise be unacceptable that was not the case in the Jo Brand so-called joke.

It wasn't part of a serious discussion the program.

It was a joke perhaps cryptid perhaps Unscripted and for my mind it clearly exceeded audiences expectations.

We expect comedians to take account of the political context if you like and modify what they're doing should they look at something like that and say remember Jo Cox don't put it in well.

Look politicians are public figures and therefore game, but they're not fair game for anything and they certainly not fair game for a suggestion that they should be physically attacked, but that was clearly not Joe Browns intention but frankly I'm less concerned about the feelings or fears of politicians in this case then I am about the feelings or fears of the hundreds of people who have been attacked with acid in this country over the last four or five years many of them permanently disfigured damaged not just physically but emotionally just think I've some of them felt about hearing this joke for me.

They would be the prime concern so finally it's not a

Questionnaire for the BBC News read write editorial guidelines it's to apply them intelligently andinio view this time.

They got it wrong.

I think they did get it wrong, but look these are difficult judgement particularly and comedy programmes and their judgements by producers that then judgements by the BBC Who complies the program another way to make sure it is in accordance with Ofcom rules and mostly producers and the BBC get them right sometimes.

They get them wrong.

Well that happens in life important thing is when you get it wrong recognise it and apologise for it belatedly the BBC did recognises Richard there is staying with me to discuss another issue.

You been contacting us about the BBC's is it won't be giving free TV licences do millions of pensioners when the government stop funding the scheme for over 75's next year it was in 2015 that the government announced that the BBC not the Exchequer would have to bear the cost of providing free life.

For those over 75 years of age by 2020 as part of the licence fee settlement the BBC now say that if it were to implement this decision in it's entirety it would mean the closure of main channels 5 Live was mentioned as well as BBC2 so after Consulting its audiences.

It is proposing a compromise the BBC will pay for licences for the poorest pensioners at a cost of around 250 million pounds a year that will knock a third off the original cost to the BBC but still leave a considerable sum to be found in savings expect program budgets to be cut a still further this is what you've had to say on the subject weeny Hayes regarding the withdrawal of free TV licences for the elderly.

Would it not be a good idea for the BBC to fund these by having a few adverts which could finance this blocks? I just above the BBC could only serve 25 million.

Found by cutting excessive salaries, so I did not worth doing may I suggest that the BBC also cut the BBC four-channel which is more see music and repeats and also BBC 24-hour News Channel in my opinion the BBC One BBC2 and red button, channels is sufficient for the general public a massive reduction in radio channel should also be considered according to John Reynolds much of the comment about this matter particularly from those who seem to enjoy taking regular swipes at the principle of the BBC licence fee itself ignores the basic fact.

I think a Labour government introduced the policy and a Tory government was pleased to do away with it.

That's it.

Hope to 7 the BBC with the huge cost of a social benefit which The Corporation can hardly be blamed for being unable to take on the licence fee is a terrific bargain which fell asleep you cannot afford Nigel ostrosky perhaps the daily papers lambasting that cut to this.

Free subsidy to two-thirds of over 75 should provide free newspapers to the same population searched a lot of different views that the BBC has between a rock and a hard place, isn't it? There are no easy Solutions well.

I didn't take the right decision as last week, but that's cos there isn't the right decision there is no answer which doesn't damage of significant part of the audience at the BBC regza rating for public relations purposes when they say that if they were to be completely the cost of the free licence fee over 75's they would have to cut things like BBC Two or 5 Live you believe that to be the case is not an exaggeration.

Just do the mass.

Just look at the annual report see the cost of each of these channels and see how many of them you have to lock off to make up 750 million pounds.

It's not an idle threat a note that BBC4 was telling I think the unvarnished truth, but will in this position of the moment of course listening to ol5 can.

It's the conservative leadership on Tuesday evening, what didn't suggest that they are going to go out of their way to do the BBC more money so presumably whatever the audience thinks this will go ahead and a significant number of people over 75 will have their licences withdrawn from them.

I take that must be the most likely outcome now unless a combination of audience concern not just from pensioner split from other people who feel that this is simply unfair that the BBC should have been landed with financing a social service unless that voice is heard loud and clear by incoming prime minister's, is there any chance that the government will think again or at least look at the level of the licence fee to enable the BBC to pay some of the some funny Richard are when the director general and the chairman appeared before House of Lords Committee on Tuesday they made the case that in future the public has to be consulted about the future of the BBC

Either via the chat or something like taking away free licences from Neighbours 7580 cannot be done in a corner in white or anymore and in 2015 and again 2016 during which art of negotiation the BBC trust as well as the director general made that point very clearly we cannot go on with government believing that they can determine the future of the BBC and the future of the BBC something behind closed doors.

It's the audience that owns the BBC the audience must have a say and Parliament must have a say to both were denied us a last time round my thanks to Richard Eyre format BBC trust deed last week.

We run an item on the Reith lectures which some suggested was an outdated former broadcasting well.

There are a lot of refunds out there.

We've been hearing back from you and Rose about how you regard the lectures as essential listening and absolutely gripping.

Please keep telling us what you like and don't like and how the BBC and it's pro.

Arms can be improved you can send an email to feedback bbc.co.uk or write a letter the address is feedback PO Box 67234 London se1p 4ax you can follow our activity on Twitter by using at BBC R4 feedback or you can call us and leave a phone message on 0333 444 5440 sanded landline charges apply, but it could cost more on some mobile networks all those details are on our website now for a new feedback feature each week.

We're asking to BBC Radio listeners to step out of their comfort zone and listen to a program that they wouldn't normally switch on this week.

We have Maggie chriselle, and Peter Ward who are going to review an episode of Kermode and mayo's film review on 5 Live broadcast on Friday the 7th of June to get an idea of their regular listening habits I first.

The Magi what would be her top 3 programs if she was stranded on a desert island feedback excluded of course programs, I couldn't do without would be the Archers private passions on Radio 3 and pienaar's politics on Radio 5 Live.

What would be your top three I have to listen to the Today programme I have to listen to The Archers and from our own correspondent and from our home correspondent out of my favourite programs that both very insightful.

Ok, let's get going ourselves.

We ask you to listen to an episode of the Kermode and Mayo film review on Radio 5 Live which is held every Friday afternoon for 2 hours from 3 and of course is then podcast do you have a nice half term by the way? Yes, I did I did very nice half-term about you yesterday.

When do you go where were you I went to the southwest really whereabouts the introduction to the podcast which?

Who is just the two of them chatting about what they did the weekend and I wasn't at all engage with that just on that question.

Could ask you about the podcast lot of BBC programmes trying to do this in the presenters at the front trying to pretend that you're listening into that sort of Antrim conversation that they wouldn't normally broadcasts as soon as credits of intimacy and sound do you think it worked on this occasion? They definitely didn't work for me.

I just find that kind of thing extremely funny and I prefer the more traditional broadcasting methodology.

Whereby the presenter has a degree of distance from the audience which is not to say there is Louth this is primarily meant to be a review program.

He is a clip of Mark Kermode reviewing the film booksmart the best come here Apes movies can talk about characters whose Circumstance is completely different to yours whether it's gender orientation age country whatever it is, but by focusing on specifics.

They become universal and it what it means that you can watch.

Moonlight and you gonna have nothing in common with that central character.

We see growing up, but you absolutely understand and share every experience and I thought exactly the same way about books mod.

It's a review program and our discussion at do you think they do that in a way that informs those people who haven't seen what they're talking about this definitely.

I haven't seen probably any of what they're talking about on Friday and I find it very informative amusing am I think you're listening to a real expert listen to Mark Kermode and I thought that Simon Mayo did a good job in facilitating that skill and underlying it come over.

I think Malcolm is an absolute star and do you don't say that Mark Kermode in particular is an expert and he dispenses knowledge and enthusiasm in extremely accessible way the program also usually carries an interview with film actors or director's is Simon Mayo talking to two of the stars of the new X-Men film and only affects men with.

Starting now, so be enough people will go actually you can't get away with that despite.

Its comic book history you can't start a whole new rafter film's called X-Men when there are women here.

Yeah.

I definitely think so I think if it was starting now.

It will be called explore explore but you have to also look at history there to like history is his story the problem usually the star on who wants to promote the program and then if you're too critical as an interviewer, they don't come on your program.

So it's a difficult thing to negotiate this interview to make it other than public relations path for the filming question.

Do you think they do with that problem reasonably well my son in terms of that interview? They didn't absolutely splendid job and they did bring out there is Sir issues to do with for example not filming in Georgia that was very significant and he also talks about the stereotypical nature of the superhero and both of these issues with or without.

Sounded to me like a perfectly honest and spontaneous response from both of those film stars and I thought that particular segment was extremely interesting and very much welcomed it any thoughts about the format Maggie what do you want in anyway? Or do you think they've got it from the top 10 at thought that was really good and then the new releases I like the fact that cupboard you know what films are on the telly my impression of the show was it just had considerable case and I think that it benefited from that so I liked the format or find people.

I don't think this was your you would automatically listen to the program used yes to do it earlier, but he was slightly out of your comfort zone.

Will you listen again at Peter I think I might but if I listen to podcast are you the facility to wind forward 20 minutes to get rid of the stuff? I found tedious maggot.

Will you listen again? That's a good thing to listen to the car and I would listen to that.

I thought was good so it's not an appointment for you.

Maggie Peter thank you very much since the brexit referendum the BBC has come under a huge amount of scrutiny and some criticism about how it covers news refusing to balance vs.

Truth the debatable value of vox pops the influence of social media and much much more in the second part of our interview with the BBC's head of newsgathering.

I asked Jonathan Munro to respond critics who think the corporations journalists have not been sufficiently challenging when interviewees factual assertions or wrong.

What was your I don't think it can be right for us to say that something which is contentious is wrong the figures on the bus were extremely well argued about way back into the referendum, but the one that's being the song that we paid in net terms of are wrong, but the people who advocated that case do not accept that that's what they were saying their case that I'm not I'm not advocating Sidaway but their cases they were using a

UEFA Grimsby gross figure, so it is contentious of course people take different views and that's the nature of the Debate that we be living through but it's not for the BBC to say a political claim is by definition wrong it is to ventilate the arguments and allow other people to say that somebody would see your job is to examine that claim and we could do that and then to come down and see whether it's possible to his right or wrong and what you could have said was that a gross figure.

It's not the actual some that was paid so if they would like that.

He has not when it was reported to simplest contention.

I'm just saying that this is suggesting that you need to challenge more.

I think anybody across the range of output the BBC girls with attitude a program for example or a new style of political into doing that we're introducing on the pm programme with with Evan Davis anybody think that's not scrutiny out that I don't think that would be a fair critique.

Will you do anything differently because in the changing environment social media is far more important than was seemingly what's happening with President Trump that people can.

Attention of the public in different ways now and some night thinking of very partisan way, are you rethinking your approach to election coverage and indi's your own use of social media? Yeah, I mean I think possible this is an Evolution rather than a moment of change.

I think things have changed significantly over the last few years and they will change in the years ahead and and you've highlighted some of the reasons behind that the rise of social media and particularly engagement of young audiences in the context of an election of course.

They're very often first-time voters they getting a lot of their information and news from social media so we put more resources into that then we are we might have done a few years ago for fairly obvious reasons and second of the point you make about fake news which of course fries and simmer social media space it's very important for us to be seen as the place where you can go to get the facts.

No that is in itself something that I know some listeners will be hearing me saying that saying will they don't accept that we always get the facts right on things like brexit because it is such a polarizing issue as we've been discussing but

Arizona BBC's cabbage like the reality check website which also has an on-air presents on most of our programs now to try to audit what people are saying and put them against the facts that against which we know that they're working and try and match to suit your future self invest money in spotting fake news because some of the Fate NewsNow takes quite a long time for people to realise that it is fake.

Yeah were investing in people to boost teams who look out for and correct this sort of thing I think that is part of our job as a public service broadcaster and online provider and you know we see examples all the time in the novel political examples and it mixes nervous about using third party sources if we not so sure of their robustness and therefore we do have to put an extra layer of scrutiny internally within the BBC before things are put out on her Airways and that's going to be increasingly important and finally did he is getting more difficult I mean a lot of the unnatural allies who would have thought in the breast some of them the Observer for exam.

Question Dion independence, there's a famous saying from parts of the BBC when the country is divided the BBC is on the rack well the country suddenly divided.

Do you feel as if you're on the rack? I think the newspaper sector as as never broadly speaking being in love with the BBC and they're all kinds of reasons for that which no doubt the Circuit of a whole separate program at some stage but you got a remember the newspapers that they are allowed to be partial.

They're allowed to take a political view.

There are allowed to support a certain party or certain policy and therefore obviously to oppose others that's not what we do.

Not what we want to do.

We not allowed to do it anyway, so there a type of opinions about the BBC and they're entitled to write what they like about us and we've got to be grown up in the sense of taking onboard those points for the made against the BBC which are right of course.

There are some Chris has the BBC which clearly alright is not a perfect places is meant by human beings we all make mistakes, but at the same time.

We've got it.

Take some of them and see what this is a campaign in part of the newspapers brief they got an ulterior motive for

I'm saying what the saying about the BBC we can so we got to be quite robust as well as being quite open and sometimes that is a difficult balance to be honest Roger sometimes.

There are moments where you think a complaint about the BBC own opinion about the BBC is utter nonsense and other times you think actually they've got a point and it's important that we are open to that my thanks to Jonathan Munro head of BBC News gathering and that's it for this week.

If you have been thanks for listening is John Ebdon used to say a long time ago, goodbye.