Read this: Remembering Lyra McKee

BBC sounds music Radio podcasts from BBC Radio 4 today we've got a magazine editor a former editor and maybe a few Chadderton Jo Elvin is the editor of you magazine which is the glossy supplement you'll find in the Mail on Sunday and Joe welcome to the media.

Show is it correct to say that you magazine is Red by more women than any Woman's Weekly or monthly title that is correct well done.

Is it also true to say that in an early phase of your career at you worked in Australia as a publicist for the soap opera neighbours.

Yes, you can't I am actually Australia I'm born in bread.

There wasn't any more cliched the neighbours who was the worst actor to work phone rightful.

We don't want Boris diplomatic spicy as a show goes on it again sooner is most recent job was editor of the pool.

The online magazine that went out of business early this year caterbury to talk a bit later about the company's collapse and I happen to know that we are listening some of the freelancers who didn't get paid because of it but Kate I'd also like to highlight something other massive roles in your CV head of editorial for the Google Cultural Institute managing editor of BuzzFeed UK and way back in 2004 the first century on your LinkedIn profile is a 2-years you spent as an assistant store manager Starbucks in Carmichael in California very important job.

Would it teach you about journalism? It didn't need to deal with people management the management programs are actually very very good at least with Olivia crellin.

Who's also hear Olivia's day job is with the BBC at Radio Cambridgeshire but she said to talk about her side hustle which earlier this month won an award at the Society of editors.

It's cold press Pad at not connected to the B&B

See Olivia is the founder and CEO effective chairing a plenty of Olivia what is it said it pressed his rematch out of London Media interns with established professionals with the spare room in London for mentorship and hosting so what we found is that there's a lot of great schemes out there, but invariably the way into the journalism profession is through poorly paid or unpaid internships and for those of you who you know don't have parents of family friends at they can stay with in London or who don't already live here.

It is incredibly difficult and expensive to be able to take part in those kind of opportunities likely that an obsession of hours on the shows history good to see you and congratulations on the award will talk more about it in a minute, but first the funeral of lyra, McKee has taken place today in Belfast near it was the 29 year old journalist shot dead last Thursday whilst observing rioting in Londonderry she's been described as one of Northern Ireland's most promising Jonas during the service at St Anne's Cathedral father Martin Magill record his own meeting with Lia

She visit him in the course of researching her book about two young boys who went missing during the Troubles by the time they had told me their story and what she had hoped to do she had me fully behind her.

Nicola it's just spoken a few moments ago her sister described lyra like a dog with a bone.

When she had found something that interested her.

But I certainly experienced that gentle determined doggedness that was for the most McHugh speaking earlier today at the funeral of lyra McKee it's trying to find that bit more about lyrics work Peter geoghegan is the co-founder of the ferret which is an investigative website that publish some of lyrics writing is on the line now Peter thanks for joining us election of time today.

What kind of train this washing machine diligent during the same year he specialises in long for a vest out of work and they are excited to come across in advert 2016 and work in a series that was looking at domestic abuse in the asylum process of people are asylum seekers and read if the situation for a suffering domestic abuse as a very very delicate subject and she was looking at the lens of Northern Ireland so she was haven't spent a lot.

I'm speaking to sources and what they came across from her and her work with roast was just her kind of generosity of spirit, but also her kind of desire to can't get in until.

Stories of work which even told elsewhere as you really worked very diligently with sources and really kind of incredibly conscientious and caring as a driver isn't that something about a lot of tests of people have made a better sense and that work to do with a sore don't want a couple of a Wars want Scottish Refugee Council more than one and actually did violence against women award and she ever since that there was a couple of years ago, but in the interim period as well.

She's continue to kind of advocate on behalf of there were small organisations use console in touch soon on social media elsewhere talk about the work.

We do encourage people to support us and join us and she just said what she was characters.

Is it when it came to journalism she found a real calling for sales in an opportunity to really getting better.

Tell these kind of Salford forgotten stories on him.

He was a product of where she came from and some of the stories that she's so grown up with elderly women forgot.

I was going to say Peter you say forgotten stories.

We what contribution did she made you think to Jesmond Northern Ireland particularly around reflecting Society there today because it's been a lot of talk as in there about the Jenner

National change in Northern Ireland have seen through the process what's going on politically across the country at the moment.

What does she make it what contribution did she make you take to reflect the countries in his today? I think I can a body journalisted.

He's gonna post troubles generation.

I she first met lira back in 2013.

When is make a documentary about composed conflict Northern Ireland see if that such as a senior early twenties was already quite a very original voice.

I think she was trying to do is to give voice this new generation churros wonderful piece from mosaic back in 2016 called the seats for babies which is all about the Viking suicide Northern Ireland since the troubles and those were kind of story she was really interesting he was absent people have our own he explained that they were going through because she was somebody you know she was very out of big advocate of LGBT rights you wants to know she had a partner she wants to get married and she couldn't shave the Northern Ireland and she really was I think somebody's you was trying to make a case for a very different version of Northern Ireland how much more can outward-looking.

The first she didn't care about religion in a Catholic Protestant dissenting her anything else that it was really hurting do they come for you need pizza.

She was a next-generation.

I think this is what the great losses with lyrics well like she was only 29 and she was really coming on and back in 2016.

She could write as well as you can see that some of the work, but you know she's got a Facebook David Faber and Faber to produce a cup of non-fiction books and it's quite clear even in her early writing this device is coming out and that clear voices sing something quite different and it doesn't want to feel Lines about being of that generation in Northern Ireland their consent to come out and I think that's journalisted.

Is that a huge loss because she was a real Talent and she was able to see and tell stories that I think we now never you not giving the types of rent yet Peter geoghegan.

Thank you very much.

Do you fit onto a really appreciate when you got so much going on a bit of it best of luck with your work at the fair it that's Peter geoghegan.

Who is the co-founder of the parrot?

Call p.m.

This way that this Friday by the way on Radio 4 last word will feature a longer tribute to Liam McKee outside you tune into that if you can I said to join the editor of you now.

I've got in front of me at Sunday's edition of you and Joe every time I say you I feel like I'm told someone which must be a payment problem for you.

How would you know about your reader's Joe at how old were they live in someone? I think it's more for me about the mood of the publication one of the great challenges in one of the exciting things about taking on new magazine as it's actually very cross-generational.

I think there's probably an average age that sort of like 45 + 45 to 55 something like that, but my aim has been that we don't patronise older readers so that if you know I'm nearly 50 and I think my interest still quite useful Equipe world leader in compared to everybody else's and for me the biggest girl has been making sure that something that Generations shares, so that your mother might read something.

And so listen to this only might check with your daughter or your grandma that I was gonna say so the average reader is 58 made may not be true of Duty no benefit, UK of the average.

Reader is the average age of a reader if you got this project to try to reduce the average age down at all.

No, I don't think so to be honest with you.

I've always been a much more Instinct developed than that.

I think if the beauty of being an editor is if you're interested in that you get to write about it informed this worldview.

I think you've got to be very mindful of those attracting the reader and doing what you pretty much sure that they'll be interested in but I also like to broaden people's idea of what they might be interested in any one of the nicest parts of the job for me is getting a letter from a 65 year old woman saying something like you know.

Thank you for not making the magazine for me all about knitting patterns.

I'm just as interested in what my granddaughter's doing on Instagram and so I try to just make sure there's that blend and balance of car.

Something for everyone does it say no you try you mention you grew up in Australia where the magazines dolly and smash Hits influence on use a child that they they spoke to teenagers.

They gave an outlet for their feelings.

They created this club feel 20% is editing a magazine still about creating a sense of membership of a club.

I think probably more than ever.

I think it's is this weird paradox for me in that were more connected than ever on social media digitally Instagram but I think that in a lot of ways that makes people feel more and more isolated and red bit lonely, and I I've never really gotten over that love affair that I had with teenage magazines when I was a kid and felt part of that gang and I think that's why I became a magazine editor first of teenage magazines is because I got that connection and that emotional connection and it's very very hard for me to separate Bank of America profitable newsletter editors picks with the line a few things.

I'm loving this week.

Got some coffee things in there got this we got to say I mean, it's not necessarily remember you've got some sweatshirts for teaching a some shoes Square toe shoes price.

I love that brand Octonauts are you didn't you meant I am sticking up for it because it's a small British business and I have those brands paid to be that I made that is Prime real estate know they have not paid to do you ever to do if you think it'd be nice getting out of them if you just send me whilst taking the Editors picks, may be measured over a lunchtime planning like a small British business pretty sure I'm not going to get a full glossy.

Had it at you magazine rates.

It's a big platform and there are advertisers and non advertisers and all I welcome if as a group we like what we see but is there anything wrong in principle it important question with advertisers paying for space in editorial page.

I happened to notice unless listening to this show you feel very strongly that actually the morad Samaria if they have to find quality journalism, so long as you're transparent about what a little and Watson have yeah.

I think transparency is absolutely paramount and I think it's it's always an interesting balance isn't it? I think if we're going to advertise as any mediabrands going to advertisers and saying we've got your target audience.

This is who you should be talking to I think it's safe and fair for them to assume that that would be reflected in some of the products in the magazine, but then every magazine.

I've worked on as well.

There's always a tonne of Brands in there like some of the ones you've just driving illegally mentioned here will never advertised just just that you've got to pull out.

I keep sexual food.

What do you what do you try and what else do you trying to do to make them any less perishable to make it last longer than a week is there is a permanent feeling of guilt when you have his magazine subscriptions in the thing.

I'm you're laughing Olivia and if you feel that says of get when you just got piles of magazines that you haven't read yeah, just actor.

At some point you have to say ok to take these items like saving them for it and she hasn't got any time.

I really just heard how busy you are but yes, I think a lot of the things that you know if it's sort of like the little glossy Oasis in a newspaper.

So I think that the hotline for you magazine as always been an emotional connection with readers in a lot of the emotional content and emotional features other things that people tell me they keeping referred to and what's the trick to getting hurt the pacing of a magazine right because they're they're big beast magazines.

They got very distinct sections as an opening bid which is often covered.

It's got your introduction to it this hearty middle section and in the staff at the end, which has a very different feel how to keep those sections distinct and separate whilst still trying to get people to turn the pages within magazines the beauty that is the visual Direction and that really help.

So you know you said like you might yes the front of the section where which tends to be the attractive real estate for advertisers, so you have a lot of single.

Is there so I tried to balance that with a lot of full bleed double page spreads that are just more visually.

It was a roulade mean for the Irish bleed is like a picture based baselier picture only like a fashion picture on a page.

That's a full pleated picture.

Ok, then.

I've gotta see what you got a new editor.

What's 10 parity like to wear for is never to compared to Eddie Craig compared to joke but they're both Marvellous Medicine but I will say I think that's one of the things to head said to me when you started was you that he wanted to get more female voices into the paper which I think he has done and I've found that really I've that I really respected that not really that is a good sign.

He's a hands-on editor and he's he really loves you magazine so I have a lot of contact with him probably more contact with him and with Jodie on a date and he copies like to be the copy is complete within ITU magazine was the pool it was founded by Sam Baker a form editor of cosmopolitan and the radio presenters.

Rhonda Byrne at the pool was the website that build itself as the platform for women too busy to browse it launched in 2015 but was round up earlier this year after a petition by her majesty's Revenue and Customs the taxman wasn't the only one left unpaid by the pool doesn't of staff and freelance writers have all been left out of pocket Lauren Laverne said at the time that she hadn't had an official role for a while.

I was extremely sad to hear about his closure and indeed looking at companies House she and Sam Baker both resigned as directors last summer caveat you joined as editor in September what did you know about the financial state of the company at the time? I knew nothing and that's why I joined when I said what they supposed to do go to the accounts.

What did what you said? What would they? What was Debbie presume? You checked it out and tried to find out what their position was when you were sold something which turned out to be untrue things.

When you're joining a start-up to kind of research research in knowing red flags are red flags at the time like looking back and that's why that thing happened in that makes things like late payments to staff and freelancers me the freelancer thing was he in but there is always a reason why and I never had a real reason to go hang on by the time.

I was going away it hang on something is seriously wrong.

It was when I had me know a winding up petition inmates go so, when did you first get wind of the fact that things are very seriously bad when your suspicions first Siri seriously bad was January I mean in October on halloween things kicked off and on Twitter pretty badly.

Would that mean happy with the other side of the story? How do you make sure we were very late and to my knowledge this was because we had changed accountants we have changed.

Adams again, and then we went back to the original account it's so I was under the impression that things are getting kind of lost in the Aether in between these systems.

Not that there is not the funds there to pay them which is now, what would you ever commissioner freelancer to write an article with even an inkling that they might not get paid for it ever I went and Selena I would never do that thing.

That's been the most frustrating throughout this entire thing is just if I had known that they would never get paid we would have never commit mean.

We wouldn't have worked there if I had known that things were in the Spanish shippons in San wind of hired me if the she knew that things are in such bad shape.

I mentioned earlier also be managed as of BuzzFeed UK BuzzFeed is digital publisher backed by venture capital the burn from cash for fuel expansion and that the UK subsidiary lists a 2 million loss in its most recent set of accounts.

Did you perhaps think with a pool that you were working for yet another digital publisher that hadn't yet? Implemented a way of making money but would.

Stay Afloat thanks to investors when I joined it was my understanding that we were getting a new round of funding for my new owner so the sort of narrative at that time was we have this new era of the Pope 2019 was going to be here.

They hired me.

They had a handful of people new CEO new head of commercial.

So very much felt like this this new Wavin with a new injection of cash you think I mean obviously the finances the frustrating thing is that we were selling and we had really good relationships with brands that I shall I mention but we were selling we had brilliant brilliant people working there and I think unfortunately it was just that comes down to balancing the books.

How did you convert she had a due find out the publication was going to close.

I found out that it was we were told it was going into administration and then that just didn't happen for recall an email as an email and how did Duke of a the news to your staff that publication is going to close she's giving her then conveyed to the staff so that was by email Gaz at that point we didn't really have an office.

There is a building for us to work and but it was an interesting stat reroll at home.

So we couldn't just call everyone into it into a board meeting unfortunately and we have made had tons of those sorts of meetings over the last month or so, it wasn't worth killing everyone into London to tell them how many freelancers are out of pocketnow genuinely nothing of Mount Everest

The number for freelancers over and over I won't say the number of around is because they legally don't know what the situation is there on that but um it's a lot and there are I would say upwards of 100 freelancers and staff members and suppliers that are all that money apart from the very sad result think that she was always that you were sold a vision which was a turnaround basically and any turnaround has a creative editorial side and a commercial side of the commercial side didn't happen, but what is your vision for the editorial turn around it didn't chance because the numbers don't add up in the last 3 years and I wanted to finish do a whole leg reassessment of what was working but wasn't working with other new things could we try and we wondered do my podcasts there is there is lots of things that and that I wanted to do along those lines that just said.

Didn't get to do do you conclude from what happened at the pool but also happen is happening in the news at spilling out of American publications.

It is too early that actually as things stand the most viable format for a women's magazine is in fact the traditional one which is a physical magazine like you know I think I think the poor could still exist and if we just in hindsight.

It's easy to say this but if the number is reduced different with a much smaller team.

I think we could still Excel what would be the model that work because it was a lot of people listen to this some of them people going to sign up for Olivia scheme which we talk about the second you think it'll be so cool to come up with a female publication for women too busy to browse how would you in retrospect makeup application like that work? What would you do differently to be honest with the commercial side and to make sure that that was going to be steadfast in that we could actually make it work and then kind of work backwards from there and how did the smallest team possible to be profitable from.

Yeah, yeah yeah and you are so now with the way things are thinking about ok subscription paid for it.

We do a paywall do we do elements of it that I paid for like a newsletter so jealous? What is the other unit out of work have any pull-right has been in touch with you looking for work out glamour a lot of those people would have contractually on head of a gentleman's agreement to not work with us because we were sort of arrival to the pool.

So it was you know that that was interesting for me, but I've also happily seen that quite a few of the people that I've had my eye on a have jobs.

You say it it's it is really difficult that question of profitability.

You know where I came from glamour.

Which was had a lot of readers and I think everybody thinks I print struggling because people aren't buying magazines.

It wasn't true.

It was the advertising model has changed so much in that middle-market there.

I think that it is.

Just not a simple anymore is saying will let's look at advertising first because advertisers got so much more choice about where they place their content and where they get their eyeballs that there's no easy Print or online answer for anybody know what to respond to that advertising changed.

Yeah, it's confusing and I think it was interesting at the time this was all kind of happening with the pool as that is feels making layoff spices making me out having to posters making layoffs, and there was I got Facebook and Google there to blame and it's like we are they because surely it wasn't the Instance for the poor little wasn't too Hunter Facebook and Googles fault if a display of the revenues would literally come back, but we can't we can't let it be having that extraordinary terrible sad particular case when we got a fact about ways in which people can get it straight a good career to be to get into in a couple of weeks ago.

We were joined on the Show by Julie Etchingham the ITV news presenter Alison Phillips the other to the Daily Mirror what are the topics that came up was Howdens of can attract more people from poorer backgrounds?

The profession the stats show that gender is a trade overwhelmingly dominated by the middle class is less Returns that thing because it Olivia crellin dimension is well, if you had a new initiative designed to change that presspad able to link up young people have been off work experience and internships with established journalist who can offer them a cheap place to say I'm Olivia how do you come up with the idea for presspad? I'd love to stay there with a sword of light bulb moment, but there was an or if they haven't forgotten about it since all the hard work and that's come.

I really I guess it was a mixture a lot of different experiences and I went through so I grew up in the Midlands I actually decided to go abroad to do journalism internships after university because I didn't know anybody really in London and just looking at the mouth you know doing I don't know 3 months of unpaid work experience vs.

You're buying a one-way ticket to where I went in the end, which was chilly learning Spanish and ended up working for boyses there.

You know it works at home.

So it was that and then obviously I

I went and got my masters degree and with a very very generous scholarship at Columbia New York and I saw a completely different way of doing internship sort of Fellowship programs all paid with a much more kind of a much bigger emphasis on helping people get into journalism from different backgrounds then fast forward when I get my stuff to appear at the BBC I was inside the system and I know I saw a lot of my colleagues who you know we're really rather well off and you know maybe had a spare property your spare space.

You know if I'm going to the calyx of oppressed mcguirks, how much do you how does what is the host get how much do you get has it worked really crucial things about you know what people were willing to do so we only ever hosted anyone in those pilots at 40 weeks and that was all for free, but we don't really want to encourage these very short internship so basically.

What time are you on the 5th day? They get their you know company email and then they're out the door already, so we had to find a way to incentivise hose to sign up for more long term for the midterm hosting.

I'm in so then we set up this what will what will be in autumn when we launched a kind of payment model so we're launching a marketplace website in the autumn and their three different ways that you can pay for your yourhosting you can either pay direct or you can get a press bad credit from a university or your organisation that your interning with so just a couple of days ago galdera our first clients and so they are going to be paying 50% of the cost of posting an accommodation for their fellows which makes a month of hosting and accommodation costs £300 which on the London living wage think it's much better than other things out there or if you don't have anybody who can give you credit and you can't pay yourself, then you can apply for a needs tested presspad bursary for putting 10 to 15% of all Oprah

Set aside so that anybody can access presspad Subaru Impreza initiative during why is it necessary? It's so interesting listening to you.

Talk when I first arrived from Sydney and living in London and I worked in a pub.

I said I had my board paid for by working the pub while I applied for jobs, but even then and then my think my first job I got £30,000 a year but that was still if you were clever that was still enough to share a flat with some friends dolls also journalist and I'm just it's very very bleak and worrying that London isn't that place anymore? It's just not it's just that I've got two talked with mention about 2 degrees in a whether they are useful not what's your advice young people listening really excited by presspad.

What would not lead to go to university if they want to get into German I say I mean I don't have a degree.

So what you don't need a degree to get into journalism.

It's a vocation.

It's a trade and you can learn it and

Messy with the way that you know the internet works and somebody digital publications although you might get laid off existing there a good route in but I do if you can go to university like I wish I had been able to go.

I think if you can make it work.

It's you know.

Yes do that but if not you know it's not all it's not the end of the world Louis look like through the press bad for you if you like BetFred yeah.

I think we really want to start off with launching this new website and basically making sure that as you know we don't have a problem with the book not balancing it which is the printing problem for startups and then be on that we want to know him Manchester we've already had you know tons of requests from people who want to host and other people who who want to be hosted there and we've had request from jealous in New York and in Melbourne and Sydney international expansion of male domination.

Cate Sevilla and olive Olivia credit have to give me if you've heard this before but I must have the shows available as a podcast by the BBC Sounds app where we regularly have a bonus Editions a little spliff it, so you don't get the live show please just search for the media show on BBC sounds and hit subscribe the same time next week.

Thanks listening.