Read this: News UK-funded report on 5 live and Roundtable #23

Coming up this week Trevor down house on monthly roundtable discussion for February 2019 with topics including Bowers purchase this week of Lincs FM group and celador radio and much more as well James cridland.

Look at whether engineering at nighty should be one of the same thing in radio and David Lloyd have some delightful radio moments irradiated a broadcast to Lucy's first this week.

Just spat between the biggest sea and News UK about a report on 5 Live Trevor has not assessing the delivery of BBC Radio 5 Live's public service Commitments it's a scholarly work and it makes some persuasive points about what it sees as five lives drift away from news and towards chat, but what's made it controversial is that it was funded by News UK the owners of talk radio and talkSPORT one and two who clearly have a commercial interest in its findings.

So I've been speaking to professor Tim luckhurst who led the research but I should say at the outset that the only agreed to speak on the understanding that I declare an interest in that I run and audio production company which is occasionally commissioned by BBC Radio so perhaps I should also mention that im a professor of journalism at Nottingham Trent University so I have some insight into his world to first off then did News UK approach the University of Kent or were they ask for funding for a project which was already underway approached off to ask whether or not we could devise a methodology to measure whether or not BBC Radio 5 Live was meeting its Commitments to Ofcom would I find surprising is there anybody find the notion of funded research remotely pricing academic research is almost always funded and indeed the BBC frequently plays organisations to carry out audience research for it so for example 2016 commission.

I see him to carry out a purposely bit survey to see how well it delivered.

It's six public purposes and the result was largely positive.

I really don't recall the BBC accusing ICM of Shameless paid for being on and I'm good.

Right because you're such a thing by the BBC is funded research.

That's normal fish only thing like this isn't surprised by the accusations of well.

They would say that wouldn't they he must understand that some people are sceptical this feels like sugary drinks are good for use as a report for led by Coca-Cola commissioned as academic research and the terms upon which it was commissioned on University of Kent standard research contract what that means Trevor as I'm sure you will be well aware is the news UK surrendered any control over methodology or findings in return for an academically independent research if they have not done so the credibility of our results would have.

Call Sabine questionable, but they understood as do all research funders the what they are doing is buying academic independence and Academic rigour it's also crucial to understand the copyright belongs to the for academics who wrote it not to News UK did the University of Kent approach the BBC for help with this research British Wars based on a data analysis methodology.

We didn't speak to anybody in the context of our research.

We spent hundreds of hours Gathering data categorising analysing evaluating and drawing conclusions we didn't expect the BBC to be delighted by the outcome, but nor did we expect them to suggest this is he anyway apart and it is not it is purely academic work.

I want it whether Tim luckhurst as a former employee of five live has been taking any pleasure in criticizing the station.

We will host the question has it gone downhill we asked the question does it meet its Commitments to Ofcom and those are 75% of its outcome during the financial year should be news and current affairs and that it should provide comprehensive coverage of politics.

We found that it does provide comprehensive coverage of politics, but that it doesn't reach the 75% threshold for news and current affairs output as a former 5 live launch editor as assistant editor at the launch of the station.

I want Sony award for the station in its first year from response to news events for the program my produced covering the IRA ceasefire announcement live from Belfast and I am a considerable fan of the BBC's indeed in recent years.

I've been presenting programmes for the BBC in Kenton.

Regulation analyst on their outfit.

I am not an enemy of the BBC not what is Tim luckhurst Stephanie

Shin of news this does seem to be the crucial point if Andy Murray wins Wimbledon is that Sport or news is a conversation with a reporter news or chat and what about the discussion with a panel of listeners or a call at the first point of course is much more basic.

We define news and I'll methodologies absolutely clear about what we regard as news the BBC does not define use indeed as we point out in our report.

This is one of the fundamental problems the BBC does not have a definition of news at its best it simply suggests that uses anything that journalists decide to cover which is terribly convenient but not particularly helpful to regulator so we've defined news and we can give examples of things that we say the BBC dance on 5 Live which are plainly not use let me give you an example from the 22nd of May

The 18th will be listened to every second of April night between 3:05 and 32 minutes past 3 in the morning Paul Knight interview Luke bar daughter of rich and Scott Yates the atelier de chef drive and leisure class the walls a very loose Spectre wedding of Harry and Meghan but it was an extended discussion about luxury accommodation and luxury dining lasting 27 minutes is classic talk show fair interesting certainly use not remotely not the Sting in it was due on Phil Williams Show on the 22nd of May for 29 minutes 5 Live broadcast of views of the Highwayman Tommy Walsh have Tommy Walsh is a great 5 Live guests he can buy to love of football and Rolling Stones with advice from home improvement and repair that's great consumer advice is perhaps a very useful social phenomenon no questions at all about that, but it isn't news there is no news content.

Whatsoever is interesting to say they also five Life itself is making every effort to recruit as presenters people who've never been journalist example, Nihal arthanayake in the afternoon.

It's very interesting entertaining presenter a very successful.

Disk jockey.

He's not a journalist and firefly boasts that employees guest presenters pussycat Doll Kimberly Wyatt Amber Davies of love Island same we suggest that what five life is actually doing is broadcasting as a sport and chat station sport and talk that's absolutely fine no problem at all that starts with its audience loves indeed.

Does a great deal of evidence and the Ofcom audience surveys that is indeed, what five nights audience laughs.

It's not what five Life licence states that it will do.

I must say some of this reminds me of the early days of JLR when we were.

Who's the big noring hard news and had to point out that we were covering important stories in programs.

Not just in bulletins.

I want to other teams definition of news is a bit well old-fashioned oakam.com Trevor other biographies Today programme Trevor I just spent the first 7 years of my career producing current affairs.

I've never imagined that the news only takes place the news bulletins and that would be a profoundly naive description of our analysis which is considerably more sophisticated than that suggests of course.

There is a distinction between news and current affairs and again.

We give that definition absolutely emphatically in a detailed methodology the point about what we have discovered and what we report on standby absolutely is 5 Live no longer does what it was established to do and of course that probably reflects different audience tastes.

Hasn't been reflected in the licence about which five life is allowed to broadcast and 5 Live is still saying the BBC still saying that 5 Live is a news and sport station.

We say no in terms of its content it is a sport and conversation station with a legacy continues.

I don't think that controversial listeners.

Don't think so either in a list of the top 20 sources of news 5 Live doesn't appear Radio 2.

Radio 4.

Facebook does the Metro newspaper darts but not 5 Live 5 Live is a very entertaining sport and conversation station.

I'm sure it's listeners many of them.

Love it for that reason, but that doesn't mean it's fulfilling the terms of this license.

So how does Tim luckhurst feel about his work being used by News UK for their lobbying purposes I am.

A entirely independent academic and I believe that commercial radio sector has every right to represent its interests as the BBC has to represent its own.

I take no sides in that debate.

I think the both have legitimate interests and audiences are best served by a diverse range of services broadcast on Radio and on television as a director north.com licence television station myself.

I think of coagulation matters and I think it is important that the regulator should be able to hold all broadcasters to account on the basis of the commitments.

I have made in seeking their licence the crucial point here is that there's been a change in the way the BBC's regulated one of the reasons we was so determined to undertake this research is the first time since it's creation of a public corporation in 1927 the BBC is now regulated by Ofcom not by its own board of governors or by the BBC

We wondered whether Ofcom would have the resources to test their methodology and frankly the Manpower to be able to do such a mammoth task with complete efficiency with great fans of rough.

Call me things been very effective regulator.

I think there are some questions about the scale of the task is taken on in regulating the BBC and I think that's a question which does desert be addressed in future and one final thing has Tim heard from Jonathan wall or anyone at five live I've got her personal.

I have never personally Metro from Wallasey candidacy To Freedom information request from the BBC asking to look at all correspondence between ourselves and News UK will be absolutely delighted to share it and they will find it extremely bored.

That's professor Tim luckhurst from the center for journalism at the University of Kent we're at the Round Table at what is now called Margaret Street studios and

Main tenant is one of our guests please introduce yourself.

Lol me a Mackintosh and the chief executive of muddy knees Media also here.

I'm Phil Riley industry veteran chief executive chairman of various things over the years welcome one and all we've got lots to get through today.

We've got the big news about Bowers new acquisitions breaking as we speak but I want to start with the 5 Live story, what did you think feel? Well? I think there's a great deal of truth in what team is saying that 5 Live has moved away from hard news to a mix of news and talk realistically if you want to do 75% news, then you have to actually be a rolling new station and we know from the history of ITN when they did rolling news on FM in London many many years ago rolling used just isn't that attractive you've got.

Add colour and other elements to a radio station to make it something that people wanna spend time with so the reality is you just simply can't fulfill a 75% quota if the quote is going to be interpreted as nothing but news you have to add colour and light and shade and different things and that's what they're doing and that probably just brings into question whether the Ofcom licence is correctly drafted for the world that we live in today and the radio stations that we want to service an in the UK do you think that the people who did the research should have seen this coming were they bit naive and taking News UK money not really how else and you think about it from use UK's perspective.

They want to start a debate about the future of five live and whether it's doing what it's supposed to be doing how else are they going to achieve that other than by getting somebody that's reasonably well respected and independent to.

Do that research they can't do it themselves because that would be absolutely shot down so they've got to go to somebody else to do it and Timon and the guys at the university took at that challenge and I've no doubt whatsoever.

It was done properly and fairly and in the right manner until I think the the row about that is really secondary to the issues that it raises about that the nature of five live vs.

Talking and talkSPORT and whether we've got the right mix between the BBC licence services and the commercially licensed services, Ian do you still consume Lilia radium a little here and there and there are 5 lives football coverage is unsurpassed and that's been as an ex football journalist of 10 years one of the nice things has been able to listen to football on the radio again their wonderful at that however.

I'm I listen to that station pretty much since the mid-90s rebrand up until about 2 years ago and I stop listening to all the other shows because I'm very much the anti Michael Gove I like experts.

I like being told.

Start by people who know things and they seem to be this kind of slide into multiple vox pops particularly about brexit which is this kind of self perpetuating circle of not knowing anything.

I don't want to paraphrase Sid Vicious on such a respectable so but I've met the man in the street.

They just outside my house when they're so now.

I have a lot of sympathy with the reporter and in all honesty.

I gravitated towards other forms of Media particularly The Economist Ranger podcast which are experts telling me stuff.

I don't know Rachel part of what Radio 5 live as tried to do over the Paris of moby-dick a dustbin to try to get more women are more young people great your company works in that kind of marketplace.

Do you get the feeling that they got that right that the sensible strategy? I think that they are making the same as he stepped to do so I'm a very much.

I would describe herself to casual 5 Live this now, but I was talking this morning with one of my team who is an avid.

Listening he's really into music and yo25 is massive intersport and he listens religiously and he and we were talking this morning about how there a lot of the news items are do you seem to be aimed at the economy much younger jantino generation.

I think most recently was stuck in my mind though.

They talked about the fyre festival documentary which is on at Netflix at the moment cdq amongst all ages, but particularly amongst the colour that younger Generations I feel like it's said that you have it's very clear the making those steps I do agree that God incredibly hard remit to try and colour cover all news to all people and I think we was a sensible me to try and can focus on on a certain area.

I think the the challenges doing linear radio when you're not in an issue if you if you're trying to say what they say first venues at the best live sport.

You've already got a problem.

I think you have to be careful what you wish for in the case of talk radio talkSPORT because if 5.

Live were told by Ofcom all the way to public opinion that this mix of news and sport simply couldn't be sustained and they had to do something about it if 5 Live to Round Table then 5 live sports extra will become 24-hour sport and five live will become 24-hour news and talk that would probably not be good, but talk radio and talkSPORT at the moment.

They're facing a single competitor that has to balance both things so there's just a bit of a risk there that they end up tipping at the applecart.

What comes out the end might be even worse than the competitors a face to bed.

I'm not just asking this because I've got in here, but I'm increasingly feeling that what radio 5 is for is live sport because it's the only thing that podcasting can't do by definition and if I want to hear comment or analysis, I'm going somewhere else.

I think I think that can happen, but it should be said that when they do that.

They can do it very very well the Monday night club with Mark Chapman is it safe?

Brilliant piece of radio and you have things after jumping out show on on a Sunday more knowledge experience politics the one that's that's a really good listener, but it is difficult because he start to get outflanked by smaller more dynamic companies who can follow niches down rabbit holes, what is the old have you asked you what I mean clearly you're with your focus is on form football and 5 Live obviously are big on football.

I've noticed being more of a rugby fan, but if you look at the podcast charts many of the top podcasts In Those charts are rugby.

I'm in the house and footballs.

Yours is one of them, but rugby does disproportionately well in those charts and I think it's because if you're a rugby fan.

There's nowhere to go on live radio really to get that instant analysis in debating comment about the sport other than On podcast because 5 Live didi rugby, but it's I don't know it's tucked away on a Wednesday or Thursday night.

Can I ask you about this? Maybe now is as good a time as any to talk about BBC sounds which is absolute.

Hell4leather going for under 35 year olds and they are the people with older turning their back on linear radio doing exactly what films has talked about finding the particular niche that they want and having no patience to wait through something they're not interested in is that changing the nature of your business.

I mean I think we're just trying to make the best Weekender times and I think that absolutely yes, we are thinking when weekly for a weekly programs for Radio 1 we really making sure that things happen regularly throughout the program hasn't the eyes of his visit there along music sweets for example.

Where is maybe 10 years ago.

We have had the time and the kind of other feeling that we should let me know music really really breathe and there's a time and a place for the absolutely but I think within lot of a programming.

We just making sure that their yes of things are tightly edited we move on quite quickly see I think there is a factor of that Avenue Surgery drill.

Bit is that because of the famous they haven't got any attention span always it because you want to be able to cut stuff up and make it shareable.

I think a bit of bit of both to be honest.

I mean I think our company really targets the kind of the the use of market at them a particular with the dance spectrum, so we know people do go to clubs they go there for 12 hours.

They listen to a DJ and stuff and so that the people young people do you have long attention spans in the right circumstances, but I think it's yet within radio.

It's about kind of keeping things be appropriate for the time slot and for kind of the the audience is listening at that time.

I'm at James Purnell this week at an audio UK audience with and he was telling his how successful BBC sounds is the new wave you discuss it is you say we launched it before it was ready, but that's kind of what you doing that space.

He said so are any of us ready for BBC sounds.

I do use it myself and fortunately it was his on my podcast list but it's disappeared and I'm sorry I have her I use pocket Casts and that.

The thing that I default to and if I'm walking along the street mum podcast ends and I want to get another one.

I'm gonna go to something up.

That's on my pocket cast list.

I'm not going to fuck about changing apps in the middle of a tube journey or on a street nothing for me that degree of ring fencing on wall garden.

I just think that's absolutely terrible is it saying to us as consumers? You know that television you've got which currently gets all sorts of different products you now going to have to have a special one just for the BBC can't so can you put that just to the right there and fully go before our show is crazy and I just don't know what day I hope.

They will achieve by it at the BBC always going to be a player in these markets.

They always do they do great make great content.

Why do they feel the need to have some sort of Walled Garden for I just I just don't get me and you get it.

I realise that this I know if a Plucky little podcast startup it should be my rota laying to the BBC at this stage and I certainly do have concerns.

But I think a lot of us in the Independent side are looking at this is a kind of Rising Tide hopefully lifting all of our boat and first album I ever bought was Michael Jackson's Bad album in Asda in 1985, but I didn't only listen to Michael Jackson and I didn't unley by music from ASDA because I was 7 I went on and I found new stuff and I think we're all hoping the weather BBC can do with this is overcome the biggest obstacle that we all have is podcast makers which is that a massive proportion of the country seems to think the podcast of difficult to get and there's this obstacle of I've heard a lot about them, but how do I make them work and they don't realise it's like 3 buttons on your phone and everybody's got a phone so I'm hoping that the BBC can help us all kind of get over that hurdle educate people on how to use podcast lay down their own ways and then people will do what I did with music in 1985 and go elsewhere Chernobyl vision.

Do you think you hear?

Ring from your customers the BBC sounds is a thing that they must have I think it's still it's still making it making steps to get that traction.

I think that that now gonna take a little bit of time one thing I would say that's actually really great about it.

Is that I think it actually looks good.

I was I had a meeting Spotify last week and we're talking about this and they actually really compliments and on the actual overall look of the app and an actually the kind of consistency across the colour of antidepressants for the BBC programs etc with a kind of interesting graphics etc the colorway.

Save you so I think that's a really important thing for us certainly when we make it very weird sounding almost as great as we can make it but actually particularly, we know on different platforms Wheaton looking about how it looks as well, so it's kind of icatching and color greeting the audience that might not be kind of informer.

Just scrolling you mention Spotify on we'll talk about their activities shortly.

They making a big push in the direction of buying in programme ideas now and then.

My son it's really interesting time and I think all they said to me last week that podcast other number one global priority for 2019 now and I think that's shown by Callum news.

That's been coloured cropping up this week at such as I think it's so that they know their vision is to convey the global hub for podcast with because at the moment it is quite frankly no fractured is until it is very different places to kind of consumer podcast.

I think it will be interesting to see whether they can make that step and kind of become the official home with an embossed.

Just following up what you were saying feel about the Walled Garden and the BBC's approach and wondering if they've got it at 180° around the Innocence what they should be doing is putting all their podcast off to Spotify rather than building mirror platform many many young people using you to find them wherever they are all the people.

I think it's more where there's an issue.

What device am I supposed to breastfeed just a codicil about to get my brexit medicine.

About young people's attention of my daughter said to me of a dinner the other day that she doesn't listen to radio anymore.

She's now firmly into podcast it and she named app1 podcast for me to go listen to this bookcase is 2 hours 45 minutes long.

So you can't tell me that you've been bad.

So what we were talking about in the commercial world.

Ian is the Spotify Ibiza gimlet Media do you know very big deal that goes through? What do you make of that? It's got to be good news in your sector isn't it? I think so.

Yeah.

I mean when a gimlet very well.

We worked with them on the weekend to win football documentary.

So good before the World Cup I was in Brooklyn at the end of last year going round there credible officers 27 of their own Studios have got a room when they won't theme tunes.

I bringing musicians and record them in a separate music studio and everything that everyone wants to be like this is.

It might have been last time I was on this show.

I think I was banging on about it.

There is a massive consolidation coming in this industry right now.

There are too many podcast.

They're quite possibly more podcasts and there are podcast listener and if it was there an urban Landscape it will be a handful of skyscrapers and miles and Miles miles are bungalows, so there is going to be a consolidation it it's not unlike the football blogging scene of about 2009 when suddenly every man under the age of 40 and quite a few women had their own football blog and what happened over the course of about 5 years has the really good writers ended up getting picked up and getting jobs at the Guardian and things like that and then gradually real-life setting and people start getting married and having kids and suddenly the whole thing everyone have been doing dried up and I think somewhere down the line.

There's going to be this contraction in the podcast market because they're not all making money and yeah well, we've been very.

Fortunate and we work very hard with the totally football show with profitable and that's that's wonderful but there's a lot of shows that spending a lot of money on marketing and again very small audiences and we now just getting to a point where I think big business is realising they can snap up the profitable ones for actually not that much money before Phil uses another codicil.

We've reached the backstop this particular section it will take some advertisements then we'll come back and talk about the big industry use of the week is just pulled from the discussion from Omagh to tell you about cleanfeed.

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Show are you podcast find out more at cleanfeed dotnet back to you Trevor Phil Riley is here in my guitar.

She's here.

Rachel Barton is here.

We're talking about the month in radio.

This is the radio today round table for February and the news that has been breaking while we've been getting ready is about yet more radio stations, are they bought the Lincs FM group and they bought the cellar door group? Phil you can't talk about this because until last week you were non exec director of cellar door, but I think you could talk about whether you see this as just the latest Step on an inevitable consolidation into basically three radio groups in the UK you all guys.

I think they've I hope landed in a good place because Barra great company and they have a passionate belief in local radio and I think it's always difficult for smaller groups to.

Fight their corner against the big guys in local markets and the great news for the cellar door guys.

Is there no longer the small Guy going up against the big idea part of me say that Phil but I'm going to say lots of the mode of a job at all, but they do who knows where the legs last performance.

I think that slightly unfair because our son in the case of Orion when they put the right I'm in although these roles will have gone some people have moved on actually the turnover in radio is pretty high anyway people move all the time for new job, so I don't personally think that we should get too worried about some of the roles that we will be lost in a consolidation because actually build Rose may have been lost anyway.

The cancellation is coming due to radio industry rule changes also hats off to Paul Smith who I don't think is really got the credit in the radio industry.

He should have 4 as a guy who came in the 11 years ago use his own money to buy a

Builder radio group that's now done something very good in terms of being picked up by now, but he did that all of his own back that he did that out of a real passion for radio that was unrequited for a long time ago.

I was a partner of pools in 1993 when we did for one of the London FM licences, I think it was the one that ex-mayor of what we did with a rock for my eyes are brown envelope at the time and I've been friends with him ever since he's had a passion for radio for a long time.

He is now done what he said out to do some builder radiogroup.

You sold it nothing he's done that probably at the right time.

It is right type of consolidation at that level and I'm sure he's got why no he's got some very interesting things to do with his other media and entertainment interest so good luck to him going forward as far as the more general picture is concerned.

I think it is inevitable.

It's difficult to imagine that small-scale radio stations can survive.

The squeeze at the big to power and global have got on the national marketplace and national income is the thing that will make the difference of many states between being profitable or just keeping head above water and therefore as that get that squeeze gets tighter and tighter the difficulty with a smaller station is can they just survive on local sales that stuff you do need that national the cream of the National revenue to to take you over the top of make your profitable and I think that's that's that's why the cancellation.

I think is inevitable good job.

I didn't ask you a question that you could talk about you.

I just want to take a moment to recommend to anybody listening to this that they follow you on Twitter because in the past few months you've started divulging information about how about this deal cannot about about how much radio stations are worth.

How much are listener is worth.

How much are you know a digital listener is worth compared to an analogue listener and what have you been very?

Open about this and I started copying all your tweets and pasting them into a folder called stuff.

I can pass off as my own opinion, but that's the least I seem to have found him very impressive Phil let's go to Rachel what do you make of this consolidation that is it seems to be unstoppable? I cannot remember.

In radio like the last few months really just been so much going on you know that both the other BBC national networks and of course you know Baron it's too in global and then I think that's fantastic for the industry to be kind of lots going on I mean power on fire as well because of the launch of scala and next month of Believers and saying that I'm really curious as to come out exactly how that's going to be in stuff, so yeah, it's a really exciting time and will your company be offering programs to Bower who were the first people to show their faces wanting the programs from the audio content fund.

Ripple Sylvester couple weeks ago and he's he's a really great guy and some really good vision so yeah, but absolutely be looking at that summer program ideas for them to really interesting things to do and what's the Russian I'm gonna come back to you feel before we go to Ian what's the rationale from a barrel global point of view or a wireless News UK point of view of spending a lot of money on a tiny digital station like a scholar or a virgin.

What wet what do they? Hope that will give on size and scale if you look at the numbers now for Global vs.

Balboa still behind global other they've closed the Gap today then bought themselves a lot of listeners in a lot of listening as they close that gap, but there's still some way behind and in the national marketplace the number one player get to premium for their sport versus the number two player and so the Close of that gap get the less of a premium number one gets over number to all the others less of a discount.

Uber to have to suffer so it's all about trading size and scale and clearly the only so many local stations you can buy in there probably close to the end of that realistically so for power to make any further Headroom and I think the gaps 40 50 million hours between them and depending on which would a metric you use well.

They've got to do something new haven't they serve Scarlett is there play and obviously too clever play because if I can get 10 million hours for scala and at the same time Nick 5 million of those from classic.

They close that gap by 15 million hours and that's part of their play.

I'm sure he and then from your perspective from the podcast sectors perspective is this the last two love dying twitch of linear radio before everybody falls into your bag no no, I don't think that only thing as I grew up radio Waze been more radio than TV that's a silly.

Hope that that would never be the case there will always be multiple things at radio can do that podcast can't.

And I hope we live in harmony for some time yet.

So where are we now, then in terms of the other things that are going on and we got a word about Zoe and Chris and Sarah Cox and somebody and Lauren and some of the other new shows that launched a 2 days inside news that they're getting some very very interesting traction particularly online tracking numbers of online listings of of rocketed that but I also think it's a bit of a challenge.

Isn't it? Because it's on the second digital Multiplex which isn't available everywhere people going to retune their digital radio said there's a few hurdles to go.

So it might be a slow build.

I think of all the times it saying the BBC shares have lunch Sarah is feeling really comfortable already.

I feel like she's gone about natural timeslice is perfect for hiding seams yeah, just really feels like she's kind of found her niche within Radio 2 Zoe I think it's much harder task really I mean that breakfast so is so iconic and likes of Woe

Going to see Chris Evans he's an amazing broadcaster.

I think that will take her time to Connor finds her poetry voice.

I think we should give her that time and well.

I've heard so far.

I really like but you know inevitably a breakfast show you can take time to Calabria Lilo to finally got that voice and your kind of Us p&i minute M26 music.

I mean Lauren Laverne's an amazing broadcast I was listening to her this morning actually it made me think she's actually really different type of Breakfast Show presenter because she's quite a nice stylish is quite she's quite measured.

She's quite quiet and you know all those she's she's going to be great to know charm and sense of humour at its not the kind of all been a bit of shouting kind of energy which is a relief when I think is so appropriate for 6 Music and I think that's what was the six music listen to really enjoy so I mean changes fantastic and I just think what's amazing as well as as it's been a huge advocate for women in this industry and I think that to have you know for women with Mary-Ann as well on the daytime 6 Music date on Radio 2 with the Sarah and Zoe and Chris Lawrence

6 as well, I think it's fantastic the most importantly their talented broadcasters.

You know it's not just the fact that their women and their 1404 that you know if that reason they're there for being in fact no fantastic.

That's amazing for our industry the other issue that emerged in the last couple of weeks led by Tony Blackburn and John Myers is this observation and it's nothing new that nobody really wants old listeners and buy old we now increasingly meaning over 50.

There are a lot of dare.

I say us out there and I'm feeling a little less franchised that I was by Radio 2 and 5 Live even Radio 4 sometimes is that just inevitable because the BBC will chase commercial radio and commercial radio will chase where the heads are looking at me because I fell over the only person who was making eye contact with me.

Are some help dissatisfied with the radio or not being served at plenty of old people older people listening to a lot of radio so there must be something on there that they're enjoying and ready to think he's doing a pretty good job.

There was an article in the Express that I know you circulated.

I dreaded independently which was quite ridiculous in its approach, which said in the Express and ridiculous sign that somehow we the old people were being underserved because we weren't getting the organist entertains anymore.

I like the people that my mum and dad like the aldiss entertain my mum and I love them dearly and I've had to listen to Radio 2 a lot with that were in charge of the radio, but here has gone is Radio 2 super serving people who are over the age of 70 possibly not possibly it's pictures of a 45 to 59 year old pure audience.

Do people over the age of 16 necessarily want to go to their local radio station on the BBC local radio station? I'm not sure that they do say not anymore argue that there was a gap perhaps for a station aimed at people who are over the age of 65, but the challenges they consume so much other media you can't make any money out of serving them so from a commercial perspective.

It's very difficult to make the numbers work because you can get to a lot of old people very inexpensively on daytime television which is why you see all the other up so it just isn't the money there to support a commercial venture and the BBC could only do so many things with its frequency because I was as you know I listen to your podcast Ian and you tend not to have 6065 year old oak people contributing.

I'm nearly at yours.

Tell me that im wrong here, but I'm not hearing Richard Williams on your podcast.

I'm not hearing Paddy Barclay I'm not hearing that generation because I see.

Amuse think that their demographic is too old would that be right much that it's that the totally football show to have a certain voice of a certain generation than that the audience has backed up 77% of our audience something is 25 to 44 so generally are panels reflect that also the names that you've just mentioned the frequently on Talksport and Sky Sports and things like that, so it's not that we've been able to sort of SS a gap in the market for the more experienced reporter and in essence what we do gets a big audience so will will keep doing it for now and gradually add young ones but just one point on older listeners.

I don't think older people have that old anymore in a Led Zeppelin there early 70s an idea of what people should be listening to and then you realise that I think that that's changed quite dramatically.

I'm not sure there's that much dissatisfaction out though interesting revoke Greatest Hits radio Tyne oh Polly comes from this very

The studio complex has got some real reasons.

Why we had some friends come round for dinner the other night and from Birmingham and so true blue Brummies and a little spreadsheet radio is available on FM in the in the market and they were raving about it in a way that I can't recall them raving about any radio station.

I've been involved with her own friends of the Greatest Hits radio guys have found a particular niche there in terms of old is on FM stroke DAB buttocks on FM with these people that really resonated with them and I think that maybe it's something in that that there is a gap there that that there hasn't been a station super serving a 55 to 69 year old older people that maybe like 16 70s music is really interesting that because we've we've had it on in the office as we Mark Goodier comes in every morning and he does it show from from here to whistle turned it on then and we didn't turn it off.

It was quite nice.

Just to have and I don't mean.

What is diminished by saying? It's just complicated radio is INXS followed by her Madonna for Love by The Beatles it was just nice background stuff greatest hits of the wcbs have been stalwart radio station getting great waiting forever and ever but we've never done in the UK is have an Uptempo older station on FM that so it's widely available to everybody whether there in a corner shop in the car etc.

I know we had all the stations on DAB but we've not had one on the still universe platform.

Well.

It seems to have made a difference will be back in a tick and find out what apps Stella Palace have been listening to a more innovative solutions for creative radio people simbionix.

Co.uk on find out more CVs Phil Riley from just pretty much every.

Can I call you heritage? But let's go to somebody an associative well as we're going to talk about podcasts you should listen to me and you well that we may well be familiar with as he's been around for a little while.

It's called dissect and it's a music podcasts and it's quite very interesting kind of way of doing at the basically each season or series a profile one album and in each episode they dissect a track from the album and in our fast-paced like me talking Italia fast-paced world where everything is really quick and etc.

It's actually lovely to kind of have the space the time to really look at 11 singletrack and and actually come look at the sample to use what the lyrics me the musicality within it and it's just it's really well, put together series one was about Kendrick Lamar series.

He was Kanye West series 3 was Frank Ocean as there is for is Lauryn Hill miseducation of the starting to colour be a bit retrospective and look at classic albums.

And I just start I just really like it.

It's incredibly in-depth and detailed dare.

I say perhaps too serious at times.

We do the little bit of a fun element coming into a but I highly recommended for those kind of really index music fans is the track begins with the Drum pattern created from samples taken from a 1987 boogie Down Productions song called Super Hub adaptors for the album a tablet not the bass drum snare and hi-hat are then used to create the drug patent cherry throat last once in addition to the boom Bap drums.

We're scratching turntables uses rhythmic accent just before we leave dissect does a bit of an early question rights issues here.

With lots of Music and people are always saying what am I allowed to use clips in podcast? It's Saturday point and I would love if there was one thing I would like I wish I wish we could sort out the music rights and podcasting because I made sure in 2019, but there must be a way of fixing this because if there isn't there isn't a colour simple simple way of doing things.

I think the way this particular podcast works is creative licence so that their clips after 30 seconds and I presume because they're obviously looking at one album sowing depth over a can of a series of episodes or a full series I should say that particular artists is gone ok, it's fine, but yeah, I mean let's drive.

Can we please sort this out? This is what we need is a lawyer to be listening.

Are you listening? You know I wonder if the solution might be Spotify sudden bid for world domination already got the link Media will there be some kind of transferring.

I said I did something with somebody very expert.

Might not allow them to edit tracks and they're her that might be a challenge, but I don't know I'm just second quoting James he's been absolutely I've been really enjoying alluded to The Economist earlier is percussive always like particularly the Anne mcelvoy one because she's brilliant and they've just launched intelligence then you daily kind of current affairs show which is great on the way home from work.

I found because it's a much slower pace a kind of reflection and more more magazine featuring kind of look at present day issues, and it's really well produced the voiceovers fantastic it.

Yeah, you can tell how much work and how much man powers gone into it and I know this is a simplistic point but isn't one of the great things about it and New York daily and all those things that they don't have all that radio furniture in that they don't have travel and weather Friday got to hurry visibility.

That's why I had it as long as it needs to be.

go back to what I was saying about five live to everyone who speaks on it is their expert you know his something that's happening in Venezuela his are person who lives in Venezuela and it's been on this story for years and here's what they think the economy is like this after a volatile two weeks in Venezuela demonstrations against the president erupted once more this weekend, but Nicolas maduro David defiant speech at a rally insisting he would remain in power because that's despite the fact that he's no longer recognised as president by America and a number of other countries, but we've had yet again millions of people out on the streets in Venezuela protesting against the illegitimate rule of Nicolas maduro Robert is The Economist

How many podcast witches have 30 fact it is probably my favourite podcast is the one I look forward to the most popping into my snow Jackie Smith she lives in here.

He lives in Malvern but was the MP for Redditch the rhino from long ago depakote is a mix of great insight into the current Politics of the UK mix with Absolut smart perfect example of why podcasts are different to radio linear radio licence radio because you could just never get away fitness Monday get away with if you were broadcasting and that does provide some create light and shade and this this week's was particularly smutty.

There'll be particularly pleased I probably said that about them 74 start on a high note to get Madrid

This week's I thought I can sing better fantastic concert last night baroque music and one of the singers was a countertenor who had the most amazing high voice for absolutely beautiful.

I think he still got all his bits, but something come here man.

Let me just took off you and Jackie Smith on the subject of smart my friends at folder and Co I've been making the new podcast for Radio 1 in which the BBC's officially sanctioned the use of the c bomb and a couple of occasions.

This is the podcast called worst dates nothing to do with me.

Let's go back to write to your second one, please.

I would be the first person on This podcast on the web services a series called in the studio which is basically all about kind of creative leaders from every single Walk of Life from other composers.

They've had DJs they've had underwater sculptures Iverson episode the other day, but there's a really great serious.

I highly recommend it and we've made various different programs for them, but the one I want to talk about his is basa focusing on Virgil abloh.

Who is this incredible guy? He's a kind of DJ music maker his Louis vuitton's chief designer and he's also collaborated with IKEA on a furniture range.

So basically we followed him as how you could have goes about his life is incredibly crazy creative life and just can't get a sense of you know how he does it.

What was thinking is and he's he's just one of these people you're just like I can see why you do the job you do because he sent his thinking is so left a sentence.

Crazy and brilliantly unique so it was a really great program to make listen to a little piece of that.

With Henrik most the Ikea creative lead in early 2018 two years into the process talking about how to make the chair that designing look good and feel good in the question if it's possible to smoothen an Audi what's the course virgin Experience collaborator this project is something new for him.

I wanted to know what motivated him to work with a global furniture brand.

I don't like the Conundrum that furniture isn't in Pop Culture that sow the seeds into the why why does this chair exist? How do you know this design? Usually only noticed design when something is broke.

Thanks that Rachel Ian another one from you classic FM's new podcast.

By David Walliams art is aimed at her very much younger audience the first episode came out this week and it's about Mozart and is mainly 15 minutes of fat jokes and clips and funny story people to do silly voices and all the things that David Walliams does very well.

I really enjoyed it and I will definitely play that to my 7 year old and I think it's a really interesting Linus world trying to very much in Keeping with scholars sudden emergence bringing classical music to a new audience.

I think it's a really interesting thing to do as well.

So here's what the Old Macintosh will be listening on his journey towards gala concert I would like to invite a clarinetist to pull my finger.

I really don't want to do this.

I know exactly what you're trying to do.

You're not going to get me this time.

It's not a joke.

You're thinking of fine.

Just so I can get on with your finger gross get the jungle final choose from.you filming to brexit cast for The Shard number of folic acid are managed to get through given the political situation with great footballing to pick the Sunday Times ruck podcast because it's one of the examples.

I think of where podcasting is allowed people who are knowledgeable an expert in one particular medium on a subject to expand into to Nelson Stephen Jones who's the Sunday Times Chiefs rugby correspondent is a very great writer Gray write about rugby, but actually on.

Because he's a very funny guy.

He's got a really well turn sense of humour.

He can take the mickey out of the filler contributed but you can tell they're all like him for doing it and actually he's in my mind he's growing because he's being allowed to do something in podcasting.

That is not necessarily allowed to do so much in the newspapers.

This is really quiz question is the quote the Dublin game had about 12 minutes of rugby worth watching the rest the game of the bad as much fun to watch as a censorious dentist unimpressed with your dental hygiene, so which nations needed it contributed that do we think we should completely panicking and hates the idea of England being any good and even then it's utterly pathetic.

I think I think you're close them.

Are there yet yet getting warmer.

I hope it is I assume.

It's a New Zealand journalist another member of the New Zealand coaching panel the better.

It is in a kiwi journalist and yes, I suppose that's very predictable.

I think your point Steve is probably.

Watch that and go and sit out to all of you in last week's podcast I was at the Gillard Awards local radio wards and I talked to cat and genny who do the naked podcast at Radio Sheffield and I asked them whether they thought that doing the podcast had made them into different broadcasters, and it was a short gap and then they both said you know what it has.

It's really made us think about the way we speak on the wireless because we are that little bit less formal at little bit less over on the BBC and it's all kind of constrained and a little bit more relaxed.

I just wonder if the three of you have noticed that kind of thing slipping into some of the broadcasting that we here I've not noticeable because I have to be honest most of my listening now.

This is podcasting because something you said earlier the furniture gets gets in the way for me.

I'm just do without the furniture and you get that with podcast I was just thinking about that.

I like her.

I love the excitement over row.

News broadcast I'm book podcast do give you the opportunity to build a greater sense of intimacy to know that the people that you're talking to other people like you you know we do bum sitting in front of a Glaxo Italian football show microphone here.

So you know when James Richardson's pretending that he knows that everybody has a very niche sort of football fans, so it's quite nice and I think you know podcast in German makes you a very focused to your kind of the audience about that particular subject about that particular area as I suppose broadcasters most of the time coming but it brought us so perhaps.

I think it was a really interesting point to think I'm going to do well on that picture of Rachel Barton Ian McIntosh Phil Riley thank you for being a stellar panel for the radio today round table for February will be back in a months time and would like to thank Margaret Street studios as they have called for hosting is today back to use to thank you Trevor and two guests Rachel Ian and Phil David Lloyd still to come.

Do we talk tech? Hi James cridland the radio futurologist created in 2017 then known as future media and technology and as soon as I was started.

I was told of a split within the organisations technology teams that I should be aware of the word essence two different technology teams known as big T and little t big t was technology with a capital t that sort of technology that costs lots of money transmitters studio equipments radio card cameras CD players all that sort of thing big t was an integral part of the BBC the largest office when Broadcasting House was built was the chief engineers so I was told not the director generals how impressed after a few beers the big T people would all agree that really the BBC was a broadcast engineering company button programme makers using a nice equipment little t was technology with a small tea disorder technology like laptops websites webcams perl scripts.

Email systems nor let anything involved with the word particularly was little T and they split used to be relatively common in many radio stations and radio groups and it's the sort of split the becomes quite difficult to deal with 4 people in the intersection of the two big budgets big responsibilities and very long lead times it speaks the language of broadcast redundancy and of caution little t has smaller budgets, but it's required often to move it internet speed open it can't do a job to the same resilience his big tea, so there's a real crash here sometimes.

He's running the streaming infrastructure of your radio station the job of ite or engineering.

It's audio connect to big tea, so it's engineering for house, but it's computers and interfaces with the consumer internet so it's also little t who ends up doing that you want to get audio files off the playout system.

t&n encode them and upload them to an audio server little t you want to check which studio was on a big t to switch the webcam feed for the website little tea, then there are those parts of broadcast infrastructure where little T and big t intersect as well, what data goes onto an RDS encoder or the DAB d LS engineering was once a complex world of soldering irons and replacing pinch wheels on can't machines and complex wiring looms.

Machines and much more but increasingly a studio is a set of computers linked together and minimal other equipment certainly unlikely to be user serviceable Engineering in many ways is now mainly and in-house specialist ITU department at The Brighter radio groups are recognise this and now they've single ITU department who might be supposed to go sales database one day and a broadcast plant system the next they'll probably have some RAF engineers OnStar for on contract, but i t is now a function across the company and in my experience and I

Seen this now in a number of different radio groups having one team rather than 2 has been a tremendous step proficiency and new ways of thinking so if you than engineering department and an ITU department perhaps.

It's worth me thinking that I recommend merging big T and little t because good things happen when people work together this communications tie with every other night.

You clearly pasta pot news.net and until next time keep listening now on the radio Today programme is David Lloyd what he comes to Breakfast presenters one who dominated early commercial radio history was Les Ross he's 70 this week 8 in the morning and for those who are interested to Michael Aspel was house Tingley Sony Radio Awards yesterday and not as light-hearted and

Apparently, he's got a problem.

Terry Wogan on read in the papers.

Which is why when he went on the say to get his award.

Terry Wogan one of war remember rightly says looked a bit like only lost a bit of weight really and I couldn't figure out why but anyway Terry Wogan said the worst over them I can start but we're gonna get very kind of like diffuse the whole thing when he first came on stage you say is it good it was he said I've never had my photograph taken so off and I can't think why and then that then he did the line about her you can only take a photo of a man take his dog for a walk so many times I remember saying to managing director of brmb and he called me down one day something it hurt you been listening to me driving in this way you did this will said that one.

I remember thinking first of all the Trisha as terrible as you think and secondly I remember St David David pinnell was his name nearest to me.

She wanted another world probably would probably was more of a BBC fit really like a lot of those especially commercial radio people probably work.

I remember I remember saying David I said so you were listening to me this morning and he said yeah.

I said well.

I know I said I couldn't tell you who atypical dictionary is because we're also different but I remember this year.

I started to analyse fishing commercial radio that you who you broadcasting doing what you're doing and how you doing it for you.

Got have some Focus obviously I just remember saying I tell you what I'm not doing it for you.

What age is listen to the library to Radio 4 like you probably want to have breakfast in Birmingham on brmb and extra BBC local radio evening networking has ceased for now and it was this week 2 years ago.

Did the chap who kicked it off most of his final edition?

Previously found to play for you over the past 3 hours before I go.

Can I say thank you for your company over the past 4 years to Joy for me to be here listen to so many interesting stories and chatting to you on the air and reading the many hundreds of texts tweets and emails and Facebook post that you sent me and she's if you've never been in touch but tuned in at some point over the last 2 years stop to listen.

Maybe been annoyed or inspired or laughed.

I cried then.

We certainly achieved what we set out to do so big thank you for being there tonight a lot to me and I'll see you soon, so I knew on the BBC Mark Forrest the origins of the UK radio phone in or a little bit blurred more than one station claims to evade the first ever not least BBC radio Nottingham 51 years ago this week.

I see what thank you very much.

So you didn't get there.

Maybe better luck next week.

When is going again so without further ado.

I'll pick it up and see you on the line this time.

Hello and early phoning on radio Nottingham now whether it was them or not.

Let's see this excuse to celebrate the phone in school that the time 3:15 is from Mr Savage however, such a problem.

You're not how can you get to the telephone update? I send you mine if I'm sorry about sorry.

It's the service yeah it sounded very funny situation.

See you at all.

Is it is it going to have a Mazda service time 6 minutes past 11 good morning Terry would you go ahead please one of the single parent families asking for jumbo iPhone the number needed a afterwards asked when they could collect jumbo and they said they asked my address.

I told them they said they would come round last night, so I gave up an important job.

I was doing to turn out clothes books magazines little the place with them and nobody came.

Yes, this is the sort of thing that I love hearing any but we do hear it from time to time so all I can hope is that the girl who called and who founded melancholy because she hasn't got might responsible for his listening now and has made a note of your number and will call you and say I'm terribly sorry about this will be round in half an hour or at 3 this afternoon or whenever they aggravating when you give up.

I want doing a particularly important job and I thought heavens porthos and Halloween and I didn't go I don't know I'm asking for these people.

I've done this now.

You don't need to take notice agreement.

I've got it adaptor talk to you.

Goodnight and thank you this question is on the phone.

It's Mr Rochester it.

Would you like to put to get to Chester Chester requested? Please Mr T well consolidated with the little more still expected.

It's 30 years a sweet and transworld the owners of red rose radio in Preston wood bidding.

It seems likely that Lancashire millionaire, Owen oystons.

Won his 39 billion takeover bid for the Piccadilly radio group is Miss World groups in Sutton to take over Piccadilly after the radio station shareholders ability the hourly to reject a planned merger between Piccadilly and two stations in the Midlands after gaining victory by less than 1% of the votes cast Mr Royton says he's looking forward to working with Piccadilly management and staff weekend plans forward to present the northwest as a very very exciting opportunity for advertisers acquisitions this week in 89 and the full story of that one would take half an hour and some court case notes to tell the group of course eventually became me back radio and now part of our so we're the only protesting about radios style guides 2 years ago always say that in bold letters all the biggest hits all day long at the top of the link that in bold letters never VN

Cool FM launching in Northern Ireland 29 years ago Greenwich mean time is a historical thing.

It's based on astronomical observations in historical terms utca scientifically produce.

Wyverns using frequencies 23 years ago from Friday DE73 is Patricia Hughes 6 years ago.

Good morning everyone.

It's pretty cool and announcement of the winners of the very first London radio franchises from the 13 applicants 46 years ago those are this week's radio moments.

Thank you.

David check out by the way the latest edition of David's conversations podcast to hear the excellent storytelling from Tommy Boyd about his eventful radio career really worth an hour of your time is that I think sorted then this week to James cridland and Trevor Dan and all his guess next time provided.

No other earth-shattering news before then.

We'll have a deeper look into.

Bowers purchase of links and cellar door could mean for the commercial radio sector will probably talk about the Q4 2018 Rachel figures as well.

See you today programme with creating and distributing clever software for radio.