Read this: Media Business Podcast #3: Broadcast Indie Survey

Hello and welcome to the media business podcast brought to you by Media business insight the publishing screen international and brought.

I'm Chris Curtis editor-in-chief broadcast and this month we're checking the health of the interceptor as we reveal the results of our 2019 indie survey.

You're about to find out who the biggest Indies in the country are who's going the fastest and what trends will shape the next 12 months will tell you the job of the processor under threat and who's winning the most business.

He is the editor of this year's broadcast indie.

Survey Jesse whittock to explain more the Indie survey is a broader.

Look at the UK TV production sector based on responses.

We get from a survey.

We put out to the industry and every year we get about 150 companies come back to us on that and they provide financial data and views on the industry and from that we we collate all the information.

We package it up in a supplement which we publish and then we reveal it on today here at the the Indie survey reveal and then that'll publish online and will use that data throughout the year to inform IRA

Sorting the overall global turnover metric which is the main metric we used to rank the Indies in our table at has seen growth go from 2.5 billion last year to 2.8 billion at that's pretty significant 12% up with putting a lot of that down to a deals for the bigger Indies we think most of the market still remains quite flat, but that's not a bad thing in itself and we've also seen once again the the impact of the fang so Netflix Amazon Facebook and the likes how they are impacting business and and create more opportunity that certainly comes through and there's also this year with with taking a big focus on the nations and regions with Channel 4 relocating and and the BBC adding more money into those areas are on a consistent basis the upshot from that is people are excited by the opportunity but concerned about how are things might shake out to consider the implications of this year's results.

I sat down with for industry leaders to get their perspectives settling for the inside track on The Independent production business in the UK in 2019 so the nation I'm going to some quick introductions before we dive into my right City dark is a former FOX TV studios managing director who became chief operating officer at naked entertainment in 2016.

She previously held senior roles at tiger aspect of Menton Endemol and as ICO is responsible for finance legal operations at naked which is backed by Fremantle naked shows include 100% hotter and the forthcoming ghost for Channel 4 and A&E networks next to Susie

Mac Miller Louis is Curve Media joint CEO alongside the long-suffering Rob Carey she worked previously at TalkBack Thames and still effects before founding curve in 2014 it produces broad factual programming such as ITV call the cleaners quest Salvage Hunters and the forthcoming BBC One title Vicky McClure dementia, choir and BBC Studios owns a 25% stake in Kirkstall Long Johnson appointed chief executive of Endemol shine group uk in 2015 having overseen the merger of Endemol and the sign companies here in the UK we spent the majority of his career at end of mole under its different guises he's also chair of screen skills the organisation formerly known as creative skillset and finally teradata is Chief operating officer at all3media are all that she took up in 2015 after business was acquired by Liberty

Global and Discovery prior to that she was the boss of fremantlemedia, UK and her career also includes senior roles at Channel 4 and the BBC she's also the chair of packed.

She is wearing her all3media hat today the purposes of this panel.

Thank you all for joining us.

Can we set the scene can we kick things off? I'm going to ask you that old perennial question house business.

I wonder if you can give us a sense of what driving growth.

What the causes for optimism.

What's a tough nut to crack so I'm going to come to you on the far end house business number one is great.

We now have she got the stress of saying that we are the key drivers talent talent the most world go round It's Time of the gets commissions and also you know I'm we get that Talent from from various places.

You know we are there.

We are the dude start up to.

acquisitions so across the board and we work across every John so we've got a very diversified business across every, so you know and we work with every platform Netflix Samsung channel for BBC all of them, so that's what we're at which in reality ministry effectively unless you're telling we saw one of the Indy surveys suggesting that there was more buyers never before and fiercer competition than ever before most pleasing thinking Maidstone to this is how well done in Unscripted in the last couple of years and you know that's been driven partly by UK growth, but also seen starting season 7 international revenues from the new players were looking at now a bigger market ronaldos 10:15 crackers and you know that's got to be good thinking he's got bigger access that bigger market probably something come and see you later in the panel, but

For me that's that's the really good news.

We will do just that and Camilla curve a non scripted company.

You're not being left behind by all the high-flying drama executives house has pacifica.

I'm up and down every day, so I have assistance constantly feeling like it's very very difficult and it's not easy for anyone, but it feels a bit like the wild west at the moment for me.

I think it feels like there's more deals been done in different ways and so we work with some of the episodes in ways that have been done before and with gopros, which which one you so I think that feels it was exciting times and in simple terms.

Just looking consumptions.

You haven't talked about this more interesting to me and it's absolutely brilliant results by the white and really interesting to see into validation of what we all think that the consumption of Unscripted is on the growth and this is particularly.

I think that feels like a very exciting places like me a curve pro good Susie another non-scripta.

You work for an Unscripted Productions company winning commissions on both sides of the Atlantic house Lye fat naked it's ok.

I've been cautiously optimistic.

It's not that everybody has the time does this year was just thinking to see the benefit of our relationship advice international revenue leakage to the relatively young company three years, so I thought they were school in the offing for medium rare point of the Queen couple of new format for BBC and that's challenging as you format a good ok.

Let's do a little bit of that the survey suggests a growing sense of confidence among producers who are clearly more buyers in the market, but what appears to be in?

Tensely fierce competition so 74% of respondents said competition was more intense this year than last year.

So you know when the son of the heater there and I'm going to come to you on this you're out pitching to people what about things like I don't know access to commissioners and it in terms of them being swamped by meetings or what about the idea that for every idea you're coming up with your rivals are working just as hard and do you have a sense of that that that competition is tougher and previously label market any sensible broadcaster should be thinking quite carefully before they turn down any good indeed and a good idea for an any good meeting with someone because actually there's a lot of places.

You can go to now for your ideas new access for your talent to your formats and I personally I think it's always been hard.

I can be always say it's harder.

I don't think it feels any hard.

I think there are more in this out there.

I don't want to be without some of the summer.

The Brilliance of some of them in a new and exciting I think I think what bills to me isn't getting meetings at my picture of 25 years and if I if I can't get the meeting.

I don't see them anymore, so I only see the people who want to see me which I think is a very clear cut way to working out who you want to work with because otherwise you can spend a lot of time trying to get someone to love you.

He's never going to love you before items which are coming to choose your naked hers as used its way into the market.

It's not as though all your initial conditions.

We're all BBC One 21 show something you're not work for the digital channels with viacom for example.

It's been so easy.

I don't pitch there's a reason.

Why don't I would just say thanks want to walk away Simon Tomlinson going to come to you guys now when a piece of talent show you talk about Talent comes to you in says I'd like to I'm interested in starting my own label as opposed to say taking her head and genre Jobber a big.

15 label does the volume of Indies either in the market or in your dream of your group impact what's petite at your station? You might might take that well, I think there are a lot of things in the market at the moment um you know we know that from from the people will talk to you what I did what we are finding actually quite a lot of Talent now want to join pre-existing companies having said that will so don't start ups.

I think it very much depends on the individual and what kind of person they are because it's tough you know I've been very big group that we're 29 production companies of various sizes and I think the important thing there is that you know when I sit and talk to them all you do see the differences in the different sizes and and I think that happens over time.

I think the other thing that you see is that in a competitive market which actually has got to be a good thing is a good thing in the audience because it increases the opportunity of the Times types of programmes available also I think that you have to kind of Pitch more.

Carefully.

You've got to prepare more carefully you've got a win that.

You got a win that pictures of Stephen Lambert of them said he seemed more of the kind of americanization of the development process so that you go in with a piece of tape which me and you going with an idea which is far more than it probably was previously but the the upside of that is actually enables you to go out and pitched a walk the same idea to lots of different businesses the so I die City huge opportunity opportunity, but how you doing I'm in a position.

He has to order has a lot of labels in the UK is it strategically important to add more labels as it's MotoGP sensible to put into existing businesses now.

I think they're more likely created.

He have the better but I think there's there's a limit to that.

It's just got to make sense on an individual level does not some Grandmaster pants as we only have to fetch Alone 3 drama companies it is no different in terms of Talent that about that they were track the right.

I keep hold of the right Talent and I do think so just alluded to it.

I think there's been a little bit of a shift in the last couple of years of people being less looking to start often to do this additional startup read all of it or nearly all of it and trying to build up for for 5 years and sell it I think that's getting harder and harder to do there's a challenge because of the barriers to entry three entry barriers to growth me nothing anyone can say for sure you may get a commission or two but a build that into something Scale people do it because you know this in the past make a great deal of money through building up an Indian selling at a time or whatever they managed to get the very least I don't think we've got the same dynamic anymore all companies like all3media like shine back in the day like share the ITV Studios more recently who looked at of build-up in UK so the group there isn't really the space to do that anymore.

Companies to buy so really it's hard to see situations where you would go and do those been a hugely whisky deals now the other thing is that you don't actually have to own a company to make a reasonable amount of money on that you know there are all kinds of deals that we can do and then all three I think we pride ourselves on the fact that actually we do bespoke deals.

So you know what might make Camilla work.

You know might be different from what Susie works might be different from Richard me.

So we might we've all got different things that ultimately we want to we want to achieve some people only ever want you to if you are going to buy the company take 25% of it was something like that and then they leave it open forever other people want to know that you're going to buy the rest of the business over a period of time some people is Richard says like to have a salary and then get some upside from what they doing.

So you can do a variety of different types of deals.

I think one point we haven't announced.

And I'm not going to lie many names here, but we have actually taken there is Peter Talent one of our company's who wanted to go and do their own thing and so you know what we done this this sat them off in a starter and of course we have an enormous advantage there because we know that this person is really good at what they do potential by definition is the possibility of achieving more in the fast-paced world of digital advertising Oracle data cloud has built its Legacy on finding the signal through the noise on unlocking potential we bring together data and technology to help you better understand your audience where to best engage them and how to measure a tool to realise true potential Oracle data cloud where better outcomes begin visit Oracle data cloud., to learn more if you work in law Healthcare finance and rely on facts to send and receive documents securely then, please hold if not here's a little treat.

Great now for the factors affects let you unplug your fax machine go paperless and take your facts into the cloud with the same levels of security.

I used to go to eat vax.co.uk to find out more effects for the factors cute, Richard talk about the challenges of growing your business and earlier on in the conversation you say it take a bit of time for the type of shows that you're pitching and commissions Dior winning to talk develop a little bit.

What would be your experience of that kind the Growing Pains of curve over the 4 years and what are you at now on that on that part? I mean we we knew we weren't a lot of people may think that's what you coming easiest thing and there's gonna sell in five years time.

There's that amount of money, if you haven't got a history making programs and you only haven't got the relationship primarily with the commissioner.

No, you've been around know what you've done.

That is very hard.

That's why it for Simon to do well is not a surprise to be on the February would've been for most people the back because he was always around his good too talented to be involved with lots of programs, and I think those things really can't and my experiences.

We said was a 5-year just like vision initially then a 10-year Vision and 5 years.

We knew what that look like where we are just over 3 years into that 5-year thought process and where where we sort of wanted to be in the sense that I don't speak to you think it's very painful and and I've been on the Frontline I mean I feel acute pain when you have to pretend to be happy all time for slightly forward your right and people like me don't survive well if we haven't got an infrastructure around us of people who really talented and support you in in can a black allow you to see of credibility equal if you're totally not commercial then there's a creative you're useless because you start having ambition Nintendo promising things you can't deliver where I think it is now is I think you need a base get some really good commissions that big return as we've got a lot of returns of all the commissions we've got.

Chosen production right now that difference days as a fraction and and I would say I don't speak to you soon a lot of them raw potatoes and things like call the cleaners you mentioned you know that serious to have no press it got 3 million ITV1 up against EastEnders I think that's pretty good and I think if we can keep the consistency the quality do the trick is not to wonder deliver and when you talk about some Linda's getting the first commissioner or second position sometimes I could be the downfall of you because you don't throw yourself into making but you don't look after him.

It's very hard to structure a company correctly we started with a middle sized ambition.

We didn't start with no we were more of the step up and start up with Ian Howie with unique and how we started but like you we didn't have the ambition to be small we had them with your wasn't lifestyle indie hits on indeed that we want to grow and we have the focus of media with some ambitious taken with the world's biggest SE17 talk to settle the about.

I'm interesting this idea that naked weather is a strategic aim to sort of become known for a particular type of program it does matter.

And if I was the first Percy and Thomas had to come back now ideas, obviously I think I'll programmes time it involve simple we do stick with a kind of simple buttered spatula got something that program for overcoming assess the hardest thing for the new is the new programme the new format of the biggest challenge that she's when I'm sitting and I know if I'm trying to make them make some money out of them because you understand much pressure sliver quality program and is distributed ChipsAway a stressful elemental dnd sure they will see you later or list it quite surprisingly budgets appear to vegetable.

It'll be nice it.

Well.

I wonder whether I wonder whether that might be true third-party money coming in and an Xbox potentially certainly really survey shows that margins are going down and squeezed so hard to make money on the first series of anything really it's all what you said.

Distributor and I think the time time shown us in the lessons.

We learn about distribution mainly which is if you've got IP and that have just going back to when I was 3 months with Sarah you know great British Railway Journeys is still selling round well.

I'm doing very well.

We both will happy about that and that that was an idea, but actually you can see money and it's actually had money in it, but you have to stick in it for long enough so sometimes ideas.

You just have to keep making them in as she's usually takes about 3 years to anything exciting really in terms of proper money coming in hopes to return to both of you when your labels as opportunity tape having a new condition and I've got over the line and they come to you and then and it and it will just about washes face this commission them the margin is wafer thin well.

I think the others it happens to ocelot.

Is is the broadcasters turn around and go to the companies are your part of all3media? You can put some money in with finding that were actually having to deficit financed lot of shows now.

Which actually comes down to the importance of our destination business or for international Louise and her team take risks with our shows the kind of programs that we make it we make now are attractive round the world now you going to come on talk about you know the facts but actually I think Netflix and Amazon have done an awful.

Lot to make shows far more global in terms of what people are prepared to watch which is got to be really good thing, but the primary margin is definitely crunch.

And I think it changes the way and the kind of programs you look at making and what you start to do is to go well actually, what's the what is the parliament of this show and how am I actually going to make money from it? So talk about your bitwit.

Let's talk a bit about some of the new customers new opportunities working with Netflix Amazon the rest of the fangs says some figures 33-in these out of 135 who responded to our survey and one some sort of original business and the fact that isn't just Netflix and Amazon cos we are starting to see people in business.

YouTube and Facebook intern who knows Jamie actually and Bayliss late and a couple weeks time but 3335 winning assessment fangs out of a 21 last year and our survey, so that shows are an obvious pick up Sarah I'm guessing you'll expect that to continue that that that's something that's here to stay.

I think you look at how the banks of treating the UK market which is that they all now the officers.

You know they've got so got heads of scripted heads of non scripted.

It's a really interesting process.

I think they know the creative Talent we got normal creative Talent in this country and they know that I know we can make great shows and so they say they come into this market.

You know when you look at how the the numbers break down there often fully financing shows as well.

I know they buy all rights that you know they give you a premium against alright.

They do more non-scripted.

You know we've got the circle now.

She's been starting on Channel 4 is being picked up by Netflix a bit of a tip actually.

When is Mikey for Netflix or Amazon has got a format make sure you're the production companies tied to make it in the other countries because that's where the benefit come because otherwise they're going to give it to somebody else and I think that you know that's good news for us, but but one thing I would say about the export market is it's about to increase so you got Disney plus coming into the market you got Warner Brothers about it to launch.

There's you've got is not last night, but I think this time next year.

We will be looking at a very different market and I think we'll be looking at a market of the battle of the escorts and will be interesting to see then how much money they paying what rights positions they going for and everything else so that'll be fascinating and the brilliant thing about his business.

Is it constantly changes and Richard you said that ancillary is where you make revenues? I guess if you're dealing with an Atari Punk prophets indeed if you did with an s 4DR

Experience yes the mother with the s Ford if you can get it if they pay you a massive premium for buying at your ancillary how similar are different is that to the old work for hire for the US network SIM it sounds it strikes me as that's not a million miles away is not many miles away if they'll pay you the additional model making for you.

So you probably willing to give up to level margin, but you keep the ancillary it which is better.

I think everything is good.

It's probably the simple answer.

You did very happy to have all of it, but what you don't want to do is be doing programs for 15% 18% margin and keeping ancillaries whether that's what the danger lies coming today and I said that about Netflix and chill with Netflix top of the hit list if you could win a Netflix commission with that for your your number one target and she said to me my back is would probably like that.

And it would probably look good reputation me but actually what I'd really like the 9 Show on Channel 4 ITV actually entertainment you know that I could then own the rights to and sell around the world.

So where are you on that spectrum to what extent were the Netflix commission be more valuable to use you think of different levels dinner time what your company is by the commission as you've got but the truth is you don't know what your company is going to be known as until you actually win those commissions and necessary rarefy produced his only doing a one-off talks about specific subject generally if you're trying to be across the spectrum you become the company that makes 107.7 there's 10 other ideas Simon will have wanted to make the didn't happen at said so in terms of what we want to be.

I know where we want to sit ultimately I'd like both and I want Netflix and I want Channel 4 but for different reasons.

I think the escorts in the future and the cause of wild west that's happening as I said before where there's lots of opportunities to cope Road Mews ancillary rights my open up a bit.

One more money, come to the market.

I don't I don't feel that budget increase, but I'm pleased that people do amazed.

I think it feels that you got his very flexible and I think going back to what dream commission is I think for me.

I'd love I want more 9 shows on terrestrial channels in the UK cos you get rights and and and because I know I'm the baby.

I want my mum to watch it and say well done.

You did a right and I shook it off and she won't necessarily tune into some old-school S40 play Netflix who's got there.

They know that and then business visa, UK broadcasters many ways are all the same know that they're coming to market where initially there were a bit sceptical to come and play they weren't that keen a bit for themselves in America than they realise all your up in England particularly with an excited Britain interested.

Thank you.

Got there.

Eventually was an interesting place to pay that it they are investing very heavily and then vesting emotionally very heavily in the in relationships and his they are flirting with us.

They are invited us to think they want us as an indie.

I'm sure this is how most people they actively seeking us as opposed to there still an attitude certainly at things like the cold and I listen to BBC when you should be grateful if you're working with them.

That's certainly not the case because they're very good naked point of view strategically, where does that whether the new customer sitting there in the mix of America Netflix or Amazon or Facebook and there's a terrestrial the strategy is to spread the love even if we can and try and get this commission is that strategy another one in the centre timings it like it's ok.

It's really important that we get into this space.

We can win a commission from one of these new emerging has Pessoa gonna put extra focus on that or is it more organic and that you have a hymen that today.

It seems that I didn't allow you to inform your other demands because if you're saying Netflix what you said about tape.

And about Stephen saying about tape is true across the board and and the S4 to lead the way, you mentioned take their wanted to ask you guys sense.

I get from talking in Jesus they expected always increasing expected to put more more more of their own money or their their backers money into sizzles into longer tasters into pilots is that just part of the course now.

Will you look at for casters and they say they contributing 5002 and Unscripted idea to be honest you're better off if you can afford it not to take it because you tie the right up.

Where is we don't take it and you keep the rights to yourself and you're making sizzling your investing in it then actually you can go and sell it to whoever I think the other thing is that you know you look at the pack surveys that happened and the amount of them in you look at the money that the at the end of the contributing to development now in huge and it's an investment into the production because we still don't get the money that we're investing in the development of a show back from the from the broadcast.

So it's a cost of business effectively and it's one that we will have an hour numbers and it's but it's really important cost of business because if you do not do a development properly and when I'm noticing is but when I see this is also places like Netflix and Amazon I don't know where it's because people are trying to sell a global show but they're bigger and there's something about it.

That makes it look bigger and makes it look really impressive and I think from the commissioning editors point of view you can see what your boy you can find great.

You know young graduates Young Vic young people go straight out of school Eden you can come and it doesn't have to cost thousands and thousands of pounds if you know it's definitely worth the search eBay for brainstorm without team channel Control UK and categorically said I hate hate I don't like anything on Tate and ok.

We've made you through text.

That's fine.

I don't care about that.

That is unusual but I still a Batman series with who we want to make more with so you have to admit you're right.

It is tape but equally believe in yourself on all of them possess high quality and I think they won't the Netflix ization of everything but everything bigger and rock climbing definitely onto like the main channels in the UK there's a desire to make everything bigger brighter more glitzy more factual entertainment It Feels Like for a long time obviously now.

It's been accepted that traditional UK broadcasters.

I'm not going to police and Drama too expensive that's moving now intern to non-scripted.

Richard we will be windy in Caversham 2000 commission for 9 p.m.

Tuition for a PSP with your gut Instinct be that that business would be fully funding that commission or close to it still fit in in in in fact your facts and save depends how expensive the show is I think.

Great so amazing, but also expect expensive then probably be buying the tower of shows like that way.

You know you have a discussion and you expect at the broadcaster gonna ask you because it's a show that may travel around the world to step in other shows that you did this quite clear tariff for your experience in that in terms of working for naked before cost to fully fund women finding that the budget just found increasing and it's getting harder and harder to find you make it for the money today as he signed a contract and then the pressure is on and they just wanted a bit more.

Just a little bit more in nicest possible way of coffee one for the quality and what they need and then you have a viewing of them for me as seconds are in 30 min and they do not always outside money coming in at such as people contributing their margin which is why I'm first series you know you've basically throw quite a lot at it in order to get the second series commission.

How to speed on IP it certainly at commercial broadcasters and their there they're just much more aware that you're gonna make money aftershave inflated and have quickly going to make it so just give you that's a recent show which we were we we've we've just taken that went to this cooker we decided on her debut as if it's a work.

I maybe we won't but right now.

We have wieners quotes that come with the Indie survey.

We asked various questions.

There's a nice quote that came through that said damn it was it was about Indies and launching Indies and the quote with every commissioner or controller who leaves channel sets up an indie dreaming of Riches can we talk quickly about some Missionaries who is a lot been said about the drama boom.

I don't understand Focus too much here, but I don't think that's dosage.

Stewarts abating in anyway feels like this is still for you two guys.

I guess the growth prospects Falls reinforce that yes, we are inextricably linked to drama.

Is that fair descriptors that you've done really well the last couple of years, but yes, I think is obviously not the War For Talent and particular on writing Talents writing Talent production Talent development Talent acting Talent all of it is what we seen is just inflation of course in in Alicante Spain way beyond what time do non-scripted so actually it's a genre that yes, it's great for you to invest every morning.

I think it's becoming increasing preserve of the bigger bigger companies themselves because it is it's so hard now to get a big drama, but you know how much your wrists you take you can take them same thing about some things and one of the drama.

We did last year you know your side within 15 million deficit financed got back.

Thank God but those are The Gambler companies some very well in drama, so that means I know two brothers have been mentioned and you know we've had shows like Baptiste and sheet call Midwife does incredibly well and so drama.

I think it is a really good Shauna I think where I might disagree slightly as Richard is on saying that it's it's just figured is that can do drama? I think it actually is down to the distribution business, so I think small in just can do drama, but they need to go to a distributor to work with because it is never to be the distributor that puts up the deficit on that drama, so but you can get great Returns on on drama, I think.

Where I'm chickie envious I think of Richard and an Endemol shine is there is their stable of formats? That's the other thing which is brilliant, so it's not just drama.

It's also about getting global formats off the ground and if you can get a global form out of the ground and obviously make money while you sleep which is brilliant and so I think there's still lots and lots of opportunity good.

What about to talk a little bit factual the surveys suggest a factual is growing quite quite nicely and I wonder about opportunities there feels similar use the term next suffocation or something like that, but bit but to live high-end prestige results in in True Crime obviously, but they said hi and dogs and actually can afford had good ratings success recently with things like Neverland and three identical strangers to prestige factual coming through this definitely going I think commercially it's got a difficult one.

Make sure the great to have great Prestige Car Sales out of the Gogglebox or MasterChef we are running towards.

I want to talk a little about and what have you about the strategic and commercial importance of International Business talk to me that I don't know you're probably tell me I'm wrong regular.

Do you don't listen to me? I think I do occasionally I think I think of is relatively domestic business, how important is it that is there international customers international world to contest is important and as I said Netflix is a top priority for cars and quite quite happy to say that and actually helping my notifications of stuff that makes your ideas a certain way and a lot of channels are talking about wanting things you know against Netflix necklace is scared a lot of broadcasters, so it's safe.

Thinking about it matters but equally attractive scale scale because they want from the BBC ITV channel for sale in different ways in different know I think the four us.

I think we feel UK broadcasters are still the still in the small window where they still have passed spending power and there is still IP and well.

There is still IP and and spending power we're going to focus on the UK we love UK we want to be here but equally we are open to being every pitch with with with with wind development and with various different international broadcasters that and we see that the future and a land alongside our present plants but but why you going back to eat said the trip is it is being everyone said it is being diverse not having two commissioners who like you at the channels are often those channel controllers the old or commissioner to leave we'll stay as great my best friend is the head of this there and had of that that you know that's not enough you need you need a range of people because you can be in and out of favour with channels and broadcast.

Susie from Naked and Famous part of you that feels like what a transatlantic business wiki the moment and the same time so that said he even took split in terms of revenues, but that business in the States and in the UK or has it all the time so is it a very pretty oven and it's gone off a smelly but never have lots of something out.

That is good quote in the shower and on the record attribute quote' Mansfield plimsoll in Bristol they had a good day from solid natural history which is seen for quite a long time not reader preserve of the interceptor, but now a great opportunity is quite in the survey when he talks about his of getting on a plane to us.

We're doing that at all the train to London these days you can understand that experienced a lot of New York

Had companies over there for a long time now shows like Undercover Boss have been going on for years.

You know when Pat Llewellyn and was running optimum by the good company in New York so and the same as line, so those companies have works transatlantic Lee at any rate for a long time.

We've also got offices in Ireland and New Zealand so we do work international sometimes we create chosen those territories as sometimes be selfless territory, so and we obviously we sell it all over the world.

So I think it if there is but with very much see ourselves as an international Business thanks to a panelist for their time and expertise and thanks to you for listening remember you can catch up with all episodes of the media business podcast at broadcast now.co.uk screen daily.com or ever you get your podcast that's all for now.

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