Read this: Media Masters - Tina Brown

Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game today.

I'm here in New York and John by ward winning editor journalist and author Tina Brown as the editor of The newly resurrected Vanity Fair in 1984 by the end of it and you should taking its circulation from 200000 to 1.2 million in 1992.

She became the first female editor of The New Yorker transforming the title and increasing you stand sales by 145% the books include The Diana Chronicles a biography of the late Princess of Wales and the Vanity Fair Diaries which detail the years editing the Legendary magazine she's also founder of women in the world to meet and the Daily Beast and presenter of Tbd with Tina Brown a podcast which promises to help listeners stay smart in today's fast-moving x Tina thank you for joining me.

I've been hugely looking forward to this and that I we've been bumping into each other for a while.

Cos you record tbtv Tina Brown in this studio and I offer seen it all the best people in this studio.

Will I see? What's it like to sit in that chair because

How do you say literally sit in the chair? I'm feeling very much on the spot in this chair.

You know I've got quite used to mine as chair of the other side than and talking to people.

I just had Preet bharara.

You know the great prosecutor in this morning and that it was just wonderful to talk to him.

I must say that's coming here very soon will look so much to talk about let's start with the 10th women in the world summit in New York in April did you imagine that the event would spearheaded Great Awakening in the in the Global women's movement? What is very exciting actually because you know we started this nearly 10 years ago and there was hardly anything going really on in this space as the world goes and you know we talked about all of this or the beginning the burgeoning that what I thought so as of her global woman's movement all over the world where extraordinary women from Africa and India in the Middle East or really kind of fighting for our freedom and for equality in in in such a kind of moving and Powerful way that I started this stomach in which I could showcase their voices within the course of it.

I also began to see that.

You're American feminism was in a rather torpid.

Compared to the exciting every woman that I was seeing all over the world and I felt it was time to start your address instead of American woman really about why they weren't more agitated about their own rights compared to that we are featuring from overseas and now cost 10 years later the commission has met them out that mean we were talking about your rape as a weapon of war and sexual harassment in the workplace in all these issues which of course of come topic a now since me to and and and trump and we've seen really a kind of second are in a Renaissance of feminism a young girls who you know when we started talking feminism wasn't on cool thing to have to be interested in now.

It's the cool thing to be is a feminist.

It's exciting I want I can feminism we seem to be only cool.

I was asking.

What do you say tattoo young women who say that feminism is not relevant.

I say you know that they must be both lucky and lazy because you're out if you're not taking advantage of it all supporting the rights of the owner help yourself.

Then I'm not talking to you on a sense that was some it's an amazing gathering of the kind of next generation of female leaders and activists.

Who are you excited about him from on this year's agenda.

Well women in the world this year as he's got an epic lineup.

I mean we have an opera or opening night.

She's going to be good at her.

Yeah, you have heard the theme is actually for the 10th anniversary is can women save the world because frankly implicit in ladders that you know men have had many many thousands to get it right and look at the predicament.

They were in always made a mess of it and you know we have the rise of strong men all over the world.

We have you know trump in the White House we have another planet and it's all seem to have gone back.

It is such bad such a bad thing that you don't see how a woman can make you know more of a mess of it quite honestly, so I think it's exciting tied us that question like women in in all the areas that you know they can improve the world.

We've asked over to address that question is the sort of climax of the opening night and and we have in our discussions about can women save the Planet on we have you know Christina for keratosis great to know if a planet are the campaigners campaigner and we have a great discussion about disinformation and fake news in at women who are fighting against that like Carole cadwalladr in the Guardian who have caught expose the Cambridge analytica case and amaretto the great Filipino journalist who has rapala you know who is the richest the investigative news organisation in the Philippines where she has been arrested and she's facedown duterte Ang we have extraordinary women like that and then we also have women such as Hannah winter Priyanka Chopra Stacey Abrams brie, Larson who's their Captain Marvel as so she's definitely saving the world acids and rice.

You know it's it's a very exciting lineup actually you alright.

The lineup was incredible and um.

What do you think the outcomes will be at me? What was the fundamental purpose of Environmental purposes to re.

Focus on in in a really sort of a high level way about the Solutions that women can bring to the table so in all of our discussions and we've always done this actually the one of the lines was sub stories and Solutions women in the world pictures demobilised when we don't we don't do the kind of work out the sinner bloviation is about you know leaning and and and how to get to the corner office and what I call him Parliament venting not interested in Palma vented.

What time is salinity hearing from women who have genuinely done a strawberry things and have a hit list of staff to share about how others can emulate and I think that's why people find that the summit so energizing because actually put another person who leaves that summit and either gives money to record becomes mobirise personally to engage with you know I caused a has their mind open to what's happening in the world one of the great missions of women in the world has been really to tell if so, see the world through the eyes of women.

I mean for me the most sort of fattening sing it when I go out in the corridors of the summit is to hear people saying I never knew this was happening you know in in India I never knew this was happening in Owen in Somalia whatever it is because they haven't really paid attention to that.

I mean it's not something by Reading or hearing about because foreign news gets very little attention and then bring it home.

Is there any about what they're doing this? What am I doing here? You know and I think it's also really important to understand how tough it is in another places compared to the freedoms that we take for granted.

I mean we have to incredible with Alicia from Uganda who are gay and they've been in love for many years and in homosexuality is illegal in in Uganda it's outlawed got the silly guy.

It's actually shamed.

You know and these women are really living their life in hiding in they have done for many years that they love has prevailed.

It's disgraceful.

I meant you know women their own fitted if there if they found him again if fired if that sounded Megane ashamed harassed.

A persecuted said I have these two women comment tell us a mean we are very mobilized in the US office leave right Lisa about to lgbtq rights, but just think about being in Uganda met a woman who who's not allowed to choose a person you love and not just that you know harassed and outlawed for it.

It's really interesting thing to know about him to get me hard and frankly this is an incredibly pond aspects of straight awareness-raising because it if they're not speaking it your conference then fewer people going to hear about this and you to do something about incredible outcomes in Toronto we took an amazing woman a Bangladeshi Duchess of Bangladeshi Doctor Who actually is is Canadian works in Calgary and she works with the rohingya Muslims who are persecuted and she has just come back from can't swear.

She's so they're putting things were happening and at the Summit was also Justin Trudeau who's been very supportive of women in the world and she said to me.

Do you think you could arrange an open for me to talk to myself caught up with an immigrant RAM and output the

Together in the green room and she asked him if there was any way that Canada could you don't condemn the genocide and call it a Jealous side of the ringer and two weeks later.

He did and that kind of thing happens at women in the world constantly have been able to bring together women who have extraordinary experiences extraordinary passions extraordinary missions and put them together with very high profile people.

They would never meet otherwise who can actually affect their lives and Mrs the 10th.

You're a mean one of the strongest memories of the previous so mate.

You know what a bit of order been there by the members of the previous nine there must be a litany of Essex actually she was running we've had so many moments with Hillary the great mound when she and Christine lagarde graft hands and did a great to the power and class together which can went all over the world.

It was remembered images iconic many iconic pictures like

That you know we've had the say Justin Trudeau who came in and of course brought brought the house down.

You know we've had that you know the Indian movie star Amir Khan who was just put through as another cannot unexpected guests, please shoot feminist and and he was another set of unexpected enormous hits Scarlett Johansson are you know talking about you know just kind of chastising ivanka Trump from the stage which can I went everywhere you know it's been a really remarkable 9-10 years and weather excited about this year.

It's just going to be I think accommodation of that excitement and I don't want to borrow listens would like the logistics of putting event on but it must not eat because there's so many things that you have to coordinate.

Do you take it 2 weeks off to recover afterwards 52 women coming from like 12 countries, you know I mean it's Armley Moor the visa problems the you know that kind of ego problems at times.

You know that the question of the Rubik's Cube about you know this person can.

I'm only on the Wednesday this one coming the Tuesday they supposed to be talking to other how we going to fuse those two things it's amazing and it goes on until the bitter last moment you know if people changing into it always seems to come Together With A Kind of Wonderful magic at the end and and you know what we do is not a conference.

It's really a show you know because of Anna Anna actually what I've done.

I think is do something different I called it live journalism from the beginning and never a conference was like journalism, and I'm interested to see that that term has now been taken up in many other places.

How was so slack him up for it the first time I used it and now I noticed that the Washington Post is calling it live jealous of it.

It's very much for a new Z you know I mean we did the sexual harassment of a female firefighter you know a year before anything happened with me to you know we did the rise of white supremacy.

You know two years before charlottesville.

You know we did you know Saudi with his been a very big so passion about this here actually we're going to have a major discussion about what's happening to.

Security centres in Saudia in the face of all of the ridiculous PR than MBS you know put out for hippy ended up in a slicing up you know so we do some we have very much got a new Z so it is it is live journalism and it's also pays it very much like I did an issue of Vanity Fair you know we start always with something that's very journalistic very much a topic of our times Rashi one of our great discussions this year is going to be you know what weather anything much has been achieved in the last 2 years by this huge upsurge.

We have the prosecutor in the R Kelly case joining stage along with Ashley Judd who is the first voice of course against Harvey Weinstein and transgender rights activist is joining that discussion as well as and Rebecca traister who supports that the writer and it's a great panel moderated by Katie couric and then we'll go to something.

That's has a lot of heartstrings to it.

You know we go.

Woman with a Chinese woman whose relative Savile been arrested and Will Heard It Up by it by the Chinese regime and they will get a list of brie Larson in a talking about being Captain Marvel so it's actually very much like I would do an issue of Vanity Fair with the son of the grid the heartstrings story and narrative personal narrative.

You know a great movie start just bring you that relief and sense sense of fun and I think that's really why people find it very compelling because it's that mix people don't want to have or serious Ernest content nor that they want to have fluff fluff fluff fluff, but they do want to have a mix and lighting shade light and shade.

How do people get tickets then cos I gather some slow variable? It's April 10th of the 12.

It's at Lincoln Center there's still a few tickets left if you want to go on the Lincoln Center David Koch Theatre website you will see tickets for women the world of other women in the world.com and the plug tell us what the podcast incredibly jealous.

Love doing a podcast irate is now.

I love it.

It's so much fun.

It's the most low stress thing of all the editing of you know broadcast saying I've done the most fun.

I just had a Hunger just to talk to just really smart people for as long as it took and I still feel that you know the gap in the market is still in eau intelligence unit and there are some great things out there, but the joy of just being able to let smart people I develop their ideas without being kind of harassed by are trying to cram it into a New York minute as it, where is is very very appealing and I have also very much my own solar bluestocking side as well.

You know so I I I love to be able to talk for answers to Professor Stephen greenblatt ET the great Shakespeare scholar who wrote his wonderful book torrent about Shakespeare's tyrants and have him talk about how a nation can be seeded for the advent of a tyrant and the most wonderful thing about.

Cockington what is so interesting about all this and you like he's never really he's never talking about trump except.

He is talking about trump all the way through it.

I'm in the book is just completely riveting so I love talking to him and then I love talking to someone like Michael Douglas's just like a great showboat.

He's just got an amazing story is alright Ferraro who you know who's such a fascinating guy.

We had a wonderful woman as well.

Some of my woman in the world woman.

I get to talk about let's talk with a greater length.

I had on as a guest Topeka Sam who's a wonderful wonderful woman who was on stage last year.

She is a woman as she was a formal incarcerated women she was right.

You know she was incarcerated for for for dealing drugs and while she was in prison.

She realised just how bad it is for Millom prison, and how she was going to God out.

She was going to create a halfway house that was much more than that there was actually a place where women could come and just a note be able to live after prison in a clean welcoming environment where they can.

Get themselves on their feet and look for a job and be helped in the next stage of their lives called Hope House and I mean she's just a wonderful mission and an amazing woman.

I went to see Hope House which is in Queens and I was just so touched by this entire organisation and feel that she has its extremely mission to proliferated were the US and in our right behind the sea was wonderful to be able to have her on the show when the letters of develop those thoughts and yet.

You know we will send Hillary Clinton who was able to cuddle ruminate about you know why it is that woman have to be likeable on the run for office she was great on all that so it's been it's it's great.

I'm lovin' it.

I'm really do enjoy it and what kind of feedback have you got from listeners? They must be enjoying it to get it.

It has got a great reception actually it's been listed in various in a best-of lists and the other people discovering and I deliberately didn't go out with a kind of big song and dance about the fact that I was doing it.

I feel a little gun-shy about doing that you know that I just put it up one.

And let people find it now.

We got a big following England it seems which is interesting.

I mean I love the Odyssey where people listen to some reason our bunch of people listening around.

I don't know why that is so bit sinister.

Love I love seeing whether listening you listen as a listener ellisons looks well when I used to love that about the Daily Beast 2 when I was editing the Daily Beast there was this marvelous sort of mapping thing that was in the lobby, which showed where your reader's where your users were all over the world in and use of any product a story about Paul Blanchard and see that like 25 people in Bulgaria have logged on and just keep taking like who are these bulgarians are interested in 4 Blanchard but that you know this is what life is today's quite one for the way you can just find your audiences matter where they are but also some of the metrics can be heartbreaking as if it is a web article that you know Google Analytics average bounce rate which is people that decide they're not interested in under a second or hosting company can give us metrics on when people give up your what it that you don't have the seven.

The people that didn't listen to episode 32 the Old gave up at minutes 36 needing what is it about minutes 36 that make them give up it's impossible not to get a bit upset about that.

I'm afraid it's always in the end about unit could you could you keep your audience but also keeps you sort of engaged with the world to and sometimes.

You know they're fast Eddie but something you never expected.

You know they really are I mean I didn't expect Stephen greenblatt Shakespeare professor Frank need to get any audience but he was one of the best ones you know it's like people would just I get it was January was right after Christmas and people are in the Shakespeare moon.

I thought that before because I tried to cover lots of different topics in hours.

Had a gentleman on recently called Ken her to Hollywood dealer make on a liar and a quite interesting about the Mechanics of how films in order to get it, but actually it was much more deeper than that.

I was talking about thing itself and about the journey.

Where people move to Los Angeles to try make it in Hollywood and lots of people still waiting tables 30 years later and how random it is and how the profound psychological consequences of Adam making it in Hollywood or not.

It's fascinating and I saw you.

Wake you up wedding trip to listen to because I actually did think it's only really quite fascinating and I thought to myself you're very smart getting into that community to because you know actually hear from those kind of people much in a we hear more about this in front of house people that stars and even producers and directors, but actually there a lot of really smart people in entertainment.

He really is Mark I mean obviously that it is the most powerful in the straight away and there's a lot of great minds in it and I used to love it when I was at vanity fair's has been a lot of my time with those kind of people in Hollywood lawyers and agents and ideal make a deal makers and their and they're just the people who you never read about really but you've actually said recently that there's like guys right now isn't about celebrities is actually news and it is everything coming back in politics Unit 2 Frankie to Trumps America now.

It is and it is unavoidable and it's very funny because sometimes out of my podcasts.

I'll have an Advertiser at you know who says they don't want any political to which I say well get over it be.

Cos you know you can interview frankly you know a soccer player and the next thing is they're talking about you know trump or some aspect of the political whatever political has just gone down there.

They want to talk on America is it about you taking a nearly almost that hasn't been politicised in fact and so everything is now about politics.

Everything is really driven by the news and the main problem is just keeping up with any of it and some have Callum making cadence sensor vitamin there a certain stories and I get really obsessed with it.

If I have magazine right now.

I will be whatever I mean this college testing scam story to me is just massive fine because it's one of those stories that people are just so angry about it which is great.

So it has all that sort of brakes for a Nissan of the real cultural Zeitgeist define and I think it's going to be seen as that and secondly cos it's interlink to so many other things like it.

I mean the fire festival.

Damn, you know there's a veteran of us anserinus can with Elizabeth Holmes and also through the fire festival and the variations exist because it's the same story rewrite.

I mean it's about the obsession with the shiny object the obsession with status but with no work behind it a combination of fraud laziness and and deep recklessness at its ability because they have known even at the inception that it was going to fail and yet they they seem to be doing themselves and then as well as I am an Innocence by the obsession with the shiny surfaces of Instagram and all the rest with we're all pretending everything's so fabulous and ankle and everything is about lifestyle and about you know influences and all of them guilty what and Anya and the end there's no river behind him and yet and and yet anybody successful.

Will tell you whether it's a Bruce Springsteen you know or I Maria cat or a or a prick Mariah it's like everything about their success has been about ringa ringa ringa work work work raft craft.

Total graft and they just don't get there without that and that is never really the subject of people's interests and you mention about attention deficit army night Iceland lot of time even when I'm in there possums when on social media and my Instagram for example 18:18, I don't use filters what I put up.

There is true because it's not the whole truth because the reality of my name is no my working life.

Is it a computer sending emails being with phone calls? No one's Instagram activities misleading is completely misleading and it and it allows I think as well.

They should have millennial and a younger generation to think that is all just about that.

I mean I was fascinated one of the daughters of the college scam parents.

I mean what should been got in completely wrong way by her parents because she had her schools were 2-0 to do with no success.

She gets into college about one of these elite colleges and she spends she becomes entry she doesn't get any classes either you no answer all of her.

She becomes his two men followed Instagram influencer and so many of her posts.

About like you no colleges who cares you know and like I've missed a class today TV and you look like there's not any interest at all in actually doing anything College once there in he has so you just said I think this is gonna be the definition of a completely sort of decking and values and Force the Apotheosis of that is his to the trump in the White House I'm in his his emphasis on the fact that nothing you say matters is probably one of the most corrosive things that I get extremely agitated when when a trump base kind of person says to me what he said about Idaho auto 1BA the kid who was came back from North Korea braindead when he kind of just made as if that was an important and there are reply.

It's just words and you sync with a minute but how can you say that about her utterance from the correct? What does it's just work? It's this new manager is just work.

It's horrendous.

I mean when did absolute lying all the time just become a well.

It's just words that.

To me, it is the beginning of some of the stuff that were talking about that the there's been hundreds of instances where you know any other politicians and Revelations or something that he said would be an immediate resigning matinee.

He seems to be above the laws of physics no one everyone unfortunately.

It's becoming complacent however than York Times did huge incredible piece of journalism about his father's accounts is Toolstation paint and they been nailed the president Assad with his the evidence that he's doing it as well.

It didn't even last a full new site not even not even I am call someone a name.

I think that you and I are there any two people who read it anyway your arm in because it's it's was a hugely long brilliant piece of investigative journalism, but I doubt and it just didn't penetrate and that is the scary part does it trouble you there was a journalist that that almost his supporters.

Don't care anymore let you know anything look at said brexit.

You know both sides of the argument haven't used the facts to try and reconcile and come together in the middle of becoming ever more entrenched in not listening to each other and it almost the factory.

People seem to be making these decisions that one feelings are loads of course the original brexit referendum votes for brexit based on lies anyway, because they were being told you know there was all this money.

Can I come from Europe to the National Health Service and that they were faced with an arriving in London from the EU and all kinds of crazy lies that I heard parity back in a people.

I knew were saved me well.

I'm going to vote for brexit because of all the money comes the national health unit was can meet up out of whole cloth, but that just got pervade you know by disinformation campaigns both from the kind of Murdoch press the Daily Mail and course you know God knows how many Russian bots but I mean it was everywhere and so now it's like it's for these tribes.

Isn't it? I mean where it's about your identity not about what you really think it's that you identify as a brexit person for you identify as they remain remain person we could do this podcast for like 7 hours Amazon of it, but we have this is the only bit of this.

Can I move things forward? It is now I'm having a great time, but let's go back to that time when you're asked to come to New York and and reinvent Vanity Fair that was Sabine thrilling and scary at the same time it was so exciting but it's what I wanted more than a thing in the world.

You know why I had a great son of longing and attend to come and work in New York I was had a great synonym romantic passion for what I saw a set of American letters and American magazines are having edited Tatler in the UK and made a success of it as my first so young editorship when I was 25.

I always at loved dinner the algonquin Round Table and I looking at the pictures of the old Vanity Fair in the 20th of you know photographs by Hannigan hernan and started with striking and inner the Pieces by you know Megan and Dorothy Parker and always great writers and sort and it's I had a real romance for the name and the title of Vanity Fair so.

When I heard that that Connor NAS was going to try to bring back Vanity Fare from the dead.

I was tremendously interested in seeing what would happen and then of course we saw that the first Vanity Fair in Haiti 1983 when it came back was a complete Turkey is truth and I mean I looked at my fault before the disaster.

You know it spent all this money on this total Turkey everything and I didn't think much more about it until course you know I described in my book a series of events that happened so the ends up then bit coming back and offering it to me and I didn't think for one second that I shouldn't do it.

I mean it was it was my romantic dream to do it and the previous failures ill give you a bit more leverage in and bit more freedom to do it your way it did and had also been a consultant with them for in the summer which made me a bit like hot summer camp before school.

I was having a look around the thing who is good here and who isn't it? What would I do if I was in here and so yeah, I mean it it it was it was only.

Look that way and I was so young.

I was starting to lose my thing was I thought well come to America for two or 3 years and I'll do Vanity Fair it will work work work work and then I'll come back to London and I know I never really thought be on that you know I thought it was just a hell of a great gig you know and that's what I wanted and so I left over to America I actually was offered a job in December when my husband and I were on vacation in in in the pen Barbados I was after coming for an interview and of course I didn't even say that I was like where I was I just said it there soon as I was in the US but of course I wasn't I was actually still living in London I just saw the holiday, but I came in for that interview over Christmas and they offered me the job and they said we need to start January 5th, so I went back to Barbados to see Harry and I said we're moving to the United unit 1 with into the US and being Harry just a great like a better better.

Get the house packed up and he went off to London packed up the house got himself a teaching job and Duke just a kind of what he thought about what to do and your husband is a one of my Heroes poppy.

Becoming a bit of a friend now and I'm so privileged to know him.

He's a genuine Legend mean.

We've been out with brother living in London in the house, but you never said any of those things he just said you got to do it is fantastic will figure it out and you went back and got the house packed up and rented and came back on a teaching job until he had something Brandon House lined up in it in the US in in New York and you know I took everything out the only it was only now Japanese tourists in the evening or inner it rainy and hookers and things at night so I swiftly moved out of there into my own place, but yeah, it was very very exciting moving into that assignment age dinner.

Just turned 30 credible listening to that it was it was amazing and I love that.

I love a sense of business.

Prices, I've got to come in and turn it round your sleeves up at 8.

How do we get this done that mean the first weekend? I was there.

I just came in with the art department you are actually very good.

It's just that they haven't been lead in any way.

It was horrible looking mess this week, and I just had to REdesign the magazine soup to nuts in.

Oh, that's like give it clean strong train layouts where the pictures would make it when it would breeze and strong clean headlines.

I'm a great believer in legible layouts in which the pictures of the star of the layout and and the headlines are you know already popular read the contents page.

It was one of my great passions contents pages are always underestimated.

They've got a grab people from the beginning.

I go to examine and Oates in the magazine any has to be written in such a way as to sell sell South so you know I read I read it all of it with them over the weekend and that REdesign it.

It's stayed there for the next bus he said he just changed actually with them it really stay.

All the way through the graydon Carter Raj me know, so it was a kind of a we created a prototype that lasted an awful long time and in fact only really has began to change more now under the editorship of Rickie Lee Jones in who took it over yet the year ago now and how do you edit what? What are the qualities that you bring to the role as editor that made you so successfully, is it you know that relentless drive that sense of ambition? Is it attention to detail what you how do you I meant it's all it's it's actually first of what is a passion for stories for our passion to store values of the stories.

I mean things get me really do stuff, but I said I had Vanity Fair now.

I will be so all over that testing story so all over the murder of Jamal khashoggi and Saudi and you know the resetting stories.

That is just my kind of passion.

You know and and that's what I would have would be doing now.

That's what I brought the magazine and I am wanting I can do very well.

I have to say it's I know which writer to give that story to you know I mean I think I'm good at finding tell if I found a lot in my career but

Also know what they should be writing which is something different many times writers have not got good ideas for themselves.

You know sometimes.

I meet writers who think they should be doing what kind of story and I can meet at least Estelle you know just from talking at them where I should guide them to do what they should be going to do so I was always very good at matching the story to the writer and I did that a lot and and also I'm getting that mix right.

You know I'm often talk about the mix in America scene, but you have to start with the cover you want that really show-stopping, That's glamorous.

That's connective.

That's music and then you want to have this glorious mix inside of like the gritty news story.

You know there's a beautiful looking thing the the the sort of heartstrings staying the unexpected scandal think it's that whole wonderful melee of things that that makes a great magazine a minute away magazine is

Health and safety O2 Bieber what magazine is not just a collection of good articles you can have actually you can have an issue with 10 amazing articles that makes a bad magazine.

It's about the combination of things that makes a great Max the experience the whole experience has to be holistic Lee Grande fine and sometimes people think it's just that a magazine is just articles with staple through put them all in and they're good but you're a good a great writers and it'll prospect that isn't so I mean it's it's about the mix and how they play off each other that that is what makes an exciting magazine.

I mean it is the ultimate bundle Innocence right that mean it's the bundling philosophy which is that people and I think one of the difficulties with the disaggregation of articles, is it the bungalows lost you know you and people say owl they won't read the get no traffic for a forest oi oi, oi get me traffic for an investigative story that's right and that is bundled and and marketed with a story that plays off it that is the reverse.

Has some other flavour to it, then you might get them to read and then we would often in a we might have lowered a writer in with a fabulous.

I mean glorious new Madonna cover with an inside the biggest great investigative piece you know about to The Fall of Picasso the great African dictator or you know some juicy a real lots of stories about Haiti at the time which was a big news story on but you know it was a combination of those things it was it was the Madonna with the other thing that was that was a really are a big serious story about you know when a writer who was perfect literary writer are we had an amazing essay about depression by William styron, which he turn into his book Darkness visible that kind of peas sooner had to coexist with the other stuff and that's what made very very compelling and I had the same philosophy at the New Yorker Amy was done differently in different ways, but when I had people such as Jeffrey toobin or or or Jim Stewart tour Malcolm Gladwell you know.

They were writing stories that were had absolute sort of relevance of now and then you would run something in the elsewhere in the book that will be in our completely escapist piece which could have round anytime in the last set of 2 years you know and that the is it the combination of that of those piercings were what was the compelling thing of I have to read this now in my great philosophy was always if people say.

Oh, I love the New Yorker I keep in a log basket by my bed.

I think bad bad bad day as I don't want it piling up by the bed.

I want to read it this week.

I want them to read it now good journalism has to be read absolutely and read about in a white-hot theory accurate Allegro fashion newspapers, because I want to be presented with things that I wouldn't click on but actually when I can too skinny and see their totality that I do want to I want the I wanted to to draw me in rather than just remind me.

Chicken out at click on certain articles in a like a can of cafeteria experience.

I don't like about I love doing the Daily Beast it was great but I had to really get over the fact that it look the same every day except for a change of picture.

I mean you can't you can't change the layout it's it's a very intransigent medium.

You know where is an issue of the New York Post you know it can be a huge front page with a picture on your face headline on a Next Day completely different look you know and that's that's the hierarchy of the news and how is it a big story or not.

Are you going to get excited or not? How you play the headline all those things are you know you can't do that digitally is it's a very calm unemotional medium actually and I really don't like that about it.

Do you edit my gut feeling when you make the decisions because if if for example you take it BuzzFeed content management system they will have the an article with 8 different headlines and give it to a million people in then within an hour will know which is the most.

Click were the headliners driving the most clicks it might be a negative take on it or excetra then.

We'll just delete the other ones and just go with that but you obviously in a printer basics, but you can't do that.

So how did you go about doing that? I kind of felt that you know it.

I was the algorithm.

You know you were human older than I like coming at frankly my goal was to have the headline that works write-off mean that it was and emotionally connected headline and even if a piece was quite intellectually dry.

You'd want to sell it in such a way as to get back to me Janet emotional connect that means now you could do it.

I don't feel it's necessary to keep changing the headline to know what that headline is I mean.

I just think it's lazy frankly to be doing that you know all that sort of writing 20 headlines and see which one works and me anything if you need to write 22c, which one works you should just go into another preferred the week religiously they have done and then that's called boring button.

I love it you see cos that has got the wit to make you read it.

I did the Vanity Fair Diaries you really catch that glitzy mid eighties.

Brilliantly out, but one socialite features quite heavily which is Donald Trump what were you were you wanting at an early stage and we was even more flabbergasted then when he became president when I really want actually I am you know one he submitted to us to read his book the art of the deal.

They wanted us to extract it and my staff actually rejected it and I just thought I quite like to take you home and read it and see what it's like so I took it home for the weekend to buy house at the beach from quagliarella.

Can I say alright in my diary? You know he has that I like his voice that I said he's gives up its push it but it's authentic bullshit yeah, and I said I think readers will lightning American would like nothing better so I I saw the appeal actually and I think all the Ventress and I have about trump sit on that same although he gets to be much darker.

Gary goes on I'm in the last my last encounters with trump out when he's in a race with last because we've published a piece that goes into his bankruptcies and really starts to take him apart in her and he didn't like that an adult and Marie Brenner who wrote The really fantastic piece about trump height in the 90s when he was when she felt that he was a total or Charlatans the wrong Ryback and and she was at a benefit for an opening of a movie and she's sitting there having dinner and actually has since having dinner if you suddenly feel something cold and wet down her back and she looks up taking the waiter has built something and it's actually empty glass of wine down a bag and then sped off across the room to avoid her catching him out and I mean that wasn't aggressive bullying and Co aggression Boeing orders and also a long mirror for grievance because it was like 8 months after the peace came out.

So he was like still steaming about it after Vanity Fair all those years there you're great successor.

New Yorker boosting circulation cutting its losses, how was that coming to any people resent a brick coming in and we can always big treasures other fabulous challenge which require all kinds of different things of me than Vanity Fair I mean? I had really wanted it to do it in the end because I felt and I was going too tired of the celebrity culture and I was thinking I can't keep doing covers with inner Tom Cruise and Madonna and stuff.

I just got up.

I just got to go back to my own kind of literary loves you know I was beginning to feel hunger Hunger for more depth to feel like in in in what I was doing and the New Yorker of course didn't see me that what it because they saw me.

I have just done the cover with Demi Moore naked and Pregnant and the gradwell about six months before I got any orca.

It was Demi Moore and so course everyone at the Walkers auto guard here comes the Demi Moore editor who's going to come into the New Yorker and bring all this terrible celebrity vulgarity and you know we're going to have a magazine.

It's totally decimated by the Attila the Hun I'm we don't want her and they was all sorts of tremendous like angst about it, so I come in and my first meeting you know I look around the room at they all assembled in this room upstairs at the New Yorker and then forget it cause I looked around the room and it just seemed like it was all men right and it's clear all worrying is like Coke bottle glasses and they looked at me and I just stared at me and it was so many set of hostile faces as I talked to them about what my vision of the magazine was I wasn't bring coming you know to destroy what they love.

You know it.

I I I regarded it as a literary jewel.

I simply wanted to bring new Talent and all the rest of it with that make things worse and then I looked at Frank Zappa with long hair and arms folded.

I just said look to me instead you gonna kill off a cartoons on you and that was Bob Mankoff the great cartoon is too high then turn around and make cartoon editor so far from killing off the cartoons.

Isn't he became you know very well known after some time at the dioko together we started the cartoon bank which was for all of cartoons and hadn't been used which allowed them to some syndicate there cartoon cells where I started the cartoon issue.

I mean I mean the cartoonist like made out like bandits rightly animated ship because I love them so was the actor opposite of what he'd expected and fit, but you know it was it was a very difficult first couple of years because I had a lot of opposition, but you know I also found that some of the Old Guard were very welcoming like John Updike was wonderful to meet Rodger angel.

Janet Malcolm there were people who were legendary names who actually did support me cos they were had paralyzed at the New Yorker was actually dying.

I'm in it was it was the readership of got so all the advertising was falling away and it needed a shot in the arm and what I was able to do was to I mean I actually let go 70 people at any orca, but I had 40 people who were I think everybody's talented.

I know they were astounded.

It's the ones who everybody is sort of Lana is Tamina when are brought him of course who succeeded me instead of dry.

Have done my podcast DVD with we had wonderful time together.

I brought J Malcolm Gladwell Jeffrey toobin skip Gates these are iconic names now, but how did you find them? They were young Writers doing certain things to me and Jeffrey toobin was working as an assistant da and I am very impulsive why have people actually I mean I I pick something up instantly and I decide I like it.

I mean like I can tell very quickly whether somebody is can write so if I read something I think you know there's a voice hear those Instincts hear.

There's something here.

We can do something with this guy even if you haven't written a great deal.

So if the head of Tubidy having written a great deal, but he could see that the he could really be something because his ideas were so good and he said he has tremendously good ideas Jeffrey toobin could have easily been the New Yorker

Because he has terrific ideas some writers don't have ideas as I said that he has great ideas Malcolm Gladwell was a book reviewer just a very interesting mind and across the Attic is second Peacehaven Minis first piece was was The Tipping Point actually which of course still look in the best sellers charts.

I had a lot of terrific editors as well as as Writers on Henry Fonda I came from a very small magazine Harvard recommended by skip gates and he has turn out to be a complete treasure has been there for the last 25 years Dorothy Wickenden I mean I could go on a very extraordinary crowd and they all still there that's what's so great in a way that I do feel that a mark of years of success in life is not only did you do something at work? But why she left behind you who have you brought up who have your mentor who have you trained who have you encourage who have you allowed to flower so that when you go? It's all gonna be.

Stronger and stronger and that has this what happened both of Vanity Fair on at the New Yorker I was able to leave staff writers editors photographers everyone there if you were a stellar stellar group and once you've done that the Pedigree of hiring become so good because if you are an amazing staff chances are that when they start to kind of tap out and leave they going to bring in the other incredible person is it really is about creating culture and about creating DNA that last can lot of really long time until someone comes in and screwed it up to what I'm hearing.

There.

Is that 90% of the of the job done well is actually in the hiring and firing and creating a culture because that would people use crude completely screwed and and and a team that complement each other I mean.

I've always found my heart was hard as much on two or three things I mean for riders.

It was about voice today voice.

Do they have original thinking you know it's up you don't just had someone for had a right the hardest thing.

And it's also in the case of editors and then the staff who are on in her the supporting side of the support in the writer's is temperament to I mean I'll be very careful to cost you know this sort of sensitive writer with this editor.

I know has very good people skills whatever this should have tougher minded writer with the editor.

Who is really more of a journeyman editor.

You know you have to really be to keep your talent you have to be very much alert to what they need and you also have to really encourage the other thing I feel very strongly about is an editor has to really respond quickly and 42 Talent you know why when people write things they don't want to wait and wait and wait and wait for response because right is a very insecure.

I know when I write something now in the tables have turned you know I'm every bit as much of a sort of whining you know pathetic you put everything into it put everything into it and you sit there like miserable and think.

Anne and fantasizing he hates it you know it's no good.

It's never going to make the relative.

She's probably just not got around to reading it cos he's got another 40 most to get to before and then somehow it's just really helpful if you then get you know it's it's bad enough when you then don't hear anything in the don't like it, but then you or are you just want that it was like they posted it went up online and you don't even tell you and it's like that's how much you you know who this is our interface.

Is it where you have a kind of send me an email saying I did like it.

I didn't like it.

You know and and there's a lack of response.

I think which really can be very corrosive to riders and you get some very discouraged very quickly.

Just before we talk about the Daily Beast presents wanted to come and touch on magazines because I'm doing some research for this and I found a court what you said that magazines don't even know who to put on covers these days and that they're becoming almost irrelevant.

Well.

I think it's a huge problem not for this because the Editors are at 4, because there's plenty of great town villages around but the culture is just so fast moving and so over some.

Scribed with nobody's and of course the star culture has died because you're the only movies that really get made are the huge kind of Captain Marvel kind of movies the rest don't really have any commercial impact so the manufacturing in the minting of stars that were coverstar calibre.

Is is is really been reduced to me the biggest are so they really are music starts.

You know like Lady Gaga like Beyonce you like Rihanna I mean those remain stars because there's a big showman with huge audiences movies has don't have those kind of what it is.

Really anymore and the TV streaming stars are NIS if you like and so actually trying to find a star who's going to have an impact is in itself difficult secondary are because of a digital component.

There is any surprise or traction anyway from being on unused and I mean he gets thrown up online a week before it's even available.

By the time people sit on the newsstand or get it in the mail.

It's just all potatoes and so there's a kind of slight disappointment is not like the excitement of unavailing your cover and it's on the new standard people interested to see what it looks like answer.

That's all gone because it's already being like just thrown out for free feasted upon us.

We said by digital audiences are unpaid for so it's it's a lot of issues about what should be on the cover and also sadly you know as I said before you no news is zeitgeist.

I mean I'm actually I think that valleyfair didn't do the right thing putting beta or raw,, because actually they made on the news with it with that cover story because they've they got the news that he's going to raman and probably would run and now he is running and it was a right cover at the right time and probably won't listen use dance because I think you stand is good gone as I said, but it doesn't least make the magazine feel that it's right in the Crucible of conversation this month which it hasn't.

Into some of the other covers when you sweet went back into print gym in poker was there then edited This podcast and he said that he viewed the magazine the physical magazine on the new stand as a paper-based banner advert for the website which I thought was in a very interesting inside but just building what you said there.

I think the news and the relentlessness of it is actually presenting a problem for the new so for example.

We have Paul royal in recently added to the BBC 10 news and he's put mad editor of that mean in a flagship BBC news program.

Is that he knows all of his viewers already know the news before this bulletin is started because they're on social media.

They know everything that was going to say for the first 20 minutes.

So they don't want to be told what's happened to already one in sight.

They do is absolutely right and it put the burden on the interpretive scooters highest recorded any orca.

I would always be asking for that the interpreter scoop the new angle on something when you had had happened or Frankie breaking news that nobody has yet and that's the only.

Other thing you must do inner inner inner inner publication or in on you know the news on television is bringing news that people haven't heard before another interesting about TV news.

It's very really does that actually Roger I'll start woman wants by saying to me everything on television is old and I said to him what humidity have to understand.

He said TV follows you know it never breaks news.

I'm not quite sure why that is but it's almost as if the TV culture was started by people who felt it was a subsidiary form to print the print was really the integrally formed at the serious form and they didn't want to put anything on television to hit it been covered somewhere else.

It's a different philosophy ontology print which wants to be first television doesn't feel confident to do something until someone else has said it which is interesting for the course also means that it feels freestyle most of the time in half the time with cable.

You just watching things you didn't know if you're quite rightly said and also I don't trust the breaking news tickers now on all these rolling news channels be

It's not that that is on speaking.

It's not unfortunately that's been there for this city on Sky News turns yellow but you're not maybe for 10 years ago that would have brought my attention to it.

Anyway, something's happened should boys breaking old new like breaking breaking news that you mentioned the daily be set at the couple of times.

I've wanted to touch on it before we moved on because I mean everyone still trying to make digital news profitable this this in other challenges that you face then as relevant now as I'm closer than most I didn't you sort of clothes, but it it it it wasn't enough you know and you don't want I left it was losing money and it's still losing money in over 5 years later when everything is still losing money and they've actually been through many publishers many new business people and you know Barry said to me the other day you know it's it is it's losing money it still losing money.

I just as well.

You know maybe you just got to live with it.

You know because no one has yet ready found a model to make news a profit Center because

Advertises don't want to be anywhere near stories about Jamal khashoggi being in a chopped into pieces or or you know Boeing falling out of the sky.

I mean that I want to be near that and so therefore it's all about paying for it which is what people used to do you know and we now have the subscriber model which is doing very well for the times and the Washington Post and others, but it's not ever going to really be a useful model for much less prestigious newspapers were people just won't pay for it.

You know in the same way, so that is the huge problem and I think you know talking to some of the other night who who was saying that are the things that rescue an industry of really come from inside it's like music got rescued by you know Daniel Spotify you know that that is outside our industry this will be fixed.

I mean I don't think that any publication is going to fix the business model for journalism is something about our profession that doesn't allow it to fix this problem.

It's gonna need to be invented by some sort of technician in Albuquerque or something who looks at the whole business from a completely different point of view I mean it's it's it's like the whole Netflix model is kind of an engineer's concept.

You know I mean it's I think we get too close to it or something.

I will looking at the wrong way, but we have not great minds have looked at this issue and still haven't fixed it.

So could you tell us about atypical week now? I'm in another probably isn't such a thing as a table week, but you've got lots of projects and responsibilities to quarry.

How do you cram it on him while I do I do a lot.

I'm in the my company Tina Brown Lee milia.

Is is engage fully on on the one the world summit and other smaller salons throughout the year you know we do Toronto and Washington and LA and to the smallest Moira fencing and also you have some custom event so that's going on I have a staff of about in a 15 of 16 people on there always in so I always go into the office and we have a wee Workspace like everybody these days and I spend enough might spend a morning dealing with all of that.

And then I'm getting ready for my podcasts.

I do I was read everything for my podcast.

I'm not I don't like skipping the book if I have it all for you and I'll sort it and read it work all the questions my wonderful producer Karan Compton 8.

You know why I spend a lot of time.

I'm sorry strategizing on get how to get guests either for the some it's all for the podcast and thinking about doing a new book.

So then I know III if I'm really engaged in writing or get up really early.

So I'm yeah.

It's a lot of crime in but it's a very it's a great time having great time actually it's been a very happy.

For me and I recently moved out of my house on 57th street.

Where was 430 years ago and that was a big thing to do to move to our apartment now small apartment Beetham place, but the kids have left Home and so I'm Andy and Harry and very cosy and we were saying the other night that you know we just wish we were very happy right now and I'll sort of life and companionship and you know Harry is such a wonderful.

Fun person to live with Connolly I'm infinite 35 years later.

I still is still my favourite Jenner partner and you only live about 2 blocks away from me.

I gave him a lift and I felt when I got it because I had another appointment to go size is going to delay me by EXO club, it's got a wonderful something for your house yet.

He loves it and he goes there who don't have used for me.

He's 30 or 40 legs.

It's incredibly is 90 years old and he's in a gets up yesterday.

He's poorly he comes out for breakfast with me because I have to go for my breakfast with my news buffet of newspapers in iPad and we sit there and we devour it all together.

It's our time together and you'll come back and he writes his Beano book review for the New York Times and it goes off and he swims has 40 legs only has a nappy gothic in our dinner and he's just unchanged.

It's absolutely amazing living the dream.

Is it like to journalist living in the same house as he is it like a friendly comp.

Fishing at deep do is that like Chinese walls where you don't worry? I New York Times you know about you.

Do I don't know Michael Cohen on level eight? What do you think what you think? I'd actually really in this piece about Saudi at the moment.

I'll get to know but I want to know what you think about this.

So just look at look at this because he started reading it to me a girl like I'm doing Saudi right now with her Julia Michael Cohen I'll do my Saudi then will switch but I cannot read alongside you I like that my wife and I pick her a lot but I a good thing and that haven't you write politically aligned very an outside but equally passionate about trying trying to change the world for the better frankly we get outraged about similar things and he gets extremely outrage when he feels that journalism is not persistent enough in getting to the stories.

When one of his Great Barr bears and I think he's

I actually is some you know in England journalism does profiles really well, I mean there are profiles in a litre packaging away is in a very sort of reader friendly about anybody new an important in the public eye and for some reason American travelers and doesn't really do that in the newspapers only they don't have a really great profile of in the paper and they do sometimes in a magazine like I don't know when you want it like I've Mitch McConnell Laura of you know Adam Schiff for you constantly find that you just don't know who these people really are and then something happens and their life story contacting my god.

I never knew that about him.

I never knew that he was like a vet who yellows brother was shot in Vietnam war of the whole thing it was and you just wish that you knew more about people in a set of ready deepway, and I think American journalism isn't really very good at that.

I don't think it's a tradition of newspapers in any rate it or I'll sort of the Daily News cycle magazines do it but you know the magazines and now.

Thin on the ground so you don't get nearly enough of learning who people are in a very deep way, you know at the end of the day.

Who is it will haunt Omar actually you need just read contact me about a person constantly, but you really don't have it all put together in a way that makes you know who they are as he gets kind of quite exercised about that sometimes.

I think really so actually what unit do of the next solar 9:55 15 years.

Are you going to take it out because I can use incredible already going to skill things up carry on moving to different Direction some interest is what I want to do another feel the faster and crazy of the world gets the more I feel I'm intrigued slightly into my hermit phase let's put it that way.

I mean I sometimes dream about you know living in a stomping around in Uno old old old shoes and living in the country go back to England you know writing my books living in Cotswolds I mean I have still got a little bit of a yen for that I can.

Very homesick sometimes these days, so I didn't used to do for before so I still think of England is my real spiritual base you know I did we do talk about that and then other times.

I just think you know I love New York so much.

Love my whole life and world.

I will miss it tremendously because it's it's it's the centre still love I have so many amazing friends that I know here and somebody was that I can move between I'm actually having a podcast it's really fun to say reanimate my passion for books on you know people that I want necessarily be coming across in my work with the live work.

I'm doing so I just wanna contented face and my kids and my best friends and it's all very nice that last question then if it is what advice would you give to someone starting out my career in journalism? If there are you know if you had a nice or a friend you had it was just starting out in this nasty for advice.

What would it go somewhere really small that needs you in a don't get seduced by some big brands like don't go and work for like I don't BuzzFeed

Going work for some small publication or some you know first of all with somebody who can teach you something.

It's like who's going to be your teacher in that place.

You know you want to work with someone who's got a lot of quality and rigor and you can be around them a and b something what you can have to do a lot because there's nobody else you know if there's four of you putting out some little magazine or something or some small start-up whenever you are going to learn so much more than if you are working.

I don't know at the New York Times said of getting somebody's coffee for years and doing their schedule.

You know it's it's it's great and the sad thing is just like the rigor of work.

Just don't don't expect it to come without that you know and that's my three Big Mac Syns of the day for to know it's been an incredibly enjoyable conversation.

Thank you for being a guest on the second best podcast in the world after Tbd Cena very sweet.

Thank you.

a right angles podcast in association with big things Media