Read this: Media Masters - Rachel Jupp

Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game tonight by Rachel job editor of BBC Panorama Rachel joint Channel 4 news as producer in 2005 and became its head of home you 7 years later in 2013.

She moved to the BBC as deputy editor of Newsnight overseeing a number of high-profile stories including the investigation into kids company appointed editor of Panorama in 2016.

She was the second woman given the role in The Show 66 year history and it hurts.

I'm running a program Rachel has overseen a diverse array of stories including Harvey Weinstein Quentin Putin's Russia Rachel thank you for joining me to be here to ritual Panorama such a famous current affairs brand it must be exciting to take the program called into this new era.

Yeah, it's an incredibly exciting program to work on you have an enormous amount of editorial freedom and you have a brief I suppose on that program to think about the biggest.

The most ambitious stories and journalism that you want to tackle and the freedom to do so I am so aware of the 65 years worth of history that sits behind our program and you know that it's about 4 mi sort of maintaining the Legacy and for me the Legacy is about trust really and you know finding out the truth in the stories have been really important for all of those 65 years.

I genuinely believe Panorama is a really important institution for this country and it holds power to account and takes on the difficult difficult subject but in the future.

It's also for me about thinking about how we use some of those values that have always sat at the heart of of of Panorama most importantly the truth and integrity of the program and thinking about how they work for now and some of that is about looking at different types of stories.

What are the investigations that we can do that irrelevant?

Young people and some of it is about Candice working out what panel amines outside of just BBC One which is digital or iPlayer so this could really exciting things happening.

I think on the programme both in terms of the stories that we tackle and how we get the program to resonate with younger generation to feel quite a sense of heavy responsibility the sense given its history given the power of it it then it's one of the most important mainstream investigative journalism brands.

It's a bit like an office of state and hook it up.

It's a bit like that.

It is a big responsibility and you know it's easy to just put up a gametes week the challenge is to do really difficult really ambitious journalism and still always get it right you see what I mean.

So that's the challenge of panda on my thing is to keep.

Growing to keep challenging herself keep doing more difficult subjects and tackle difficult things so I yeah.

I I take that responsibility really seriously it went when you sit in this be the verse above additives chair one of these I didn't realise if I got the job is programs at Panorama often have what I call a really long tail so there are court cases that are going on about programs that were done.

You know three or four years ago and you know that the impact a program can make and last for a really really long time and way beyond just he watches it that we can you know what we recently had serious case review on her undercover that we're done in their G4S young offenders institute and the programme was 11:00 that you're only last week that 11 agencies were found to have made serious failings.

So so you couldn't manage all of that as well as just the program.

And I also get like an enormous amount of sounds ridiculous, I get an enormous web archive requests as I can we use its calories that when you realise actually Panorama is it's not quite the first version history because you don't tend to do things really really quickly, but it often it is telling a very important part of our country's history.

I think and without any disrespect to say the Graham Norton show which I love as well.

It's an entertainment programme but you know you're dealing with people that don't want to be featured.

So you got it but all of the the safety of undercover.

You know all of that tension dealing with lawyers and the pressure to get it right way to say on Graham Norton that's a very enjoyable show it is effectively a Hollywood celebrity coming in and doing something they want to do but I got the latest film There Must Be An inherent tension and stress in in what you doing to get it right.

It's really important and the yeah.

I legally these things can be really really fraud when I used to work a timer for news or at least not phone up and say you want to come on programme people think about it now.

When your Panorama offend soap making a Panorama of people react to other differently I think it'd be fair to say I think if you win a makeup on my brother rumoured solutely yeah, but I suppose I mean if I say not as I've got a really brilliant team and particularly around undercover.

I have a really really fantastic colleagues who handle the most difficult time investigations and they do with the most extraordinary professionalism and that will sometimes go all the way through to court cases, so I owe you know obviously it's the team that makes the programs really we have a lot of support from our lawyers.

Yeah, I mean it's very important panoramas to get it right and you're you're in it what they would say intruding into the lives of of lawbreakers bullies nasty people violent people if they must be inherent stressful situation there.

I think investigative journalism is

It's nature difficult and it can mean different things for different stories and genuinely there isn't an easy Panorama IVA trying to do something very very quickly but you're always trying to have something that's different from the news all you're doing something which I sort of social affairs for example it involves access, but you got enormous duty of care issues.

They're all your trying to do you know a very ambitious investigation and there is you know lawyers now are used a lot.

I think to try and talk to you watch the program.

Yeah, so and so and then then then that the sort of the spectrum when you're dealing with criminals.

There are safety issues as well and I think the the climate for and best of journalism is is getting more difficult actually and for all of those reasons but that's why I think Panorama is important because I'm sitting within the BBC as we do with her.

Portent mean I genuinely impartial and independent and it means that we can pursue those stories Without Fear or favour but for the teams involved in a managing that that that stress is an important part of what we do and how do you do that and we one of the techniques.

I think talking about it and within the team and I think we learn a lot from each other.

We try and encourage a system where people can learn from each others mistakes and you know there are occasionally thermostats because you're often taking on a subject for the first time.

You know when you're making a program.

You can spend weeks.

Just developing it to get to the point that you decide to make it then then weeks making it and then weeks dealing with it afterwards and so I think so serve wherever possible working collaboratively is an important part of that and also the nature of the programme is you.

Valentino with balance different types of programs over a year so you try and space are really biggest and most ambitious investigations out and have different types of programs in between and and I think a lot about the teams that are working on each program and how you can get them a good range of stories over the course of the year.

I obviously wouldn't expect you to breach any confidence is only thing that's confidential of course but how do you how do you get the inspiration for programs? How did it come to is it do you have people that come to you saying you should look into this.

Do you know this funeral parlours clearly robin from Gravesend right will look into that but obviously you don't know whether that person is a vexatious person is making it up or Aldi what ram the supermarket New Look at Brands evening.

I think they're up to no good.

How does it actually work in terms of the inspiration for individual programs so sometimes people right into Panorama or give us a call with an idea for a story and we'll start that conversation.

It's very important for us.

Obviously to always maintained really high editorial standards, but that could be the beginning of that process plants the seed of some wrongdoing but actually exactly we don't have it gonna be in house reports anymore on on Panorama but I do get a lot of pictures from freelance reporters or from reporters across who work Ross BBC News it will say you know what I covered this story yesterday.

I really think there's something more Reddit you know if you could let me go and find out and let me know after that works a lot of stuff comes from you know it's stuff.

That's being used as being stories that have been covered Elsewhere and I just think actually that's that's as more to that than just a 3-minute news piece that something bigger going on and so sometimes.

I feel there's an interesting story that's not being covered by the news because it doesn't quite fit the something happened today and so we're going to tell you about it so it.

Sample we recently did a programme about and takeaways because I think that the takeaway market has just totally changed and it's a really really exist example of how technology has changed you know like something we all do everyday eat.

I don't know and but nobody to be looked into it because it's not look I think that's naturally covered by the news even though it reflects.

How we live our lives so we did an investigation into some of the biggest players in the takeaway market, but that's not the sort of story of normally say so some of it is about trying to sort of predict trends and think about where Society is moving to you as well, but it's also going somewhere to fulfill the BBC's remit about distinctiveness because we can do investigative pieces to newspaper ownership and all these great and important things that need to be looked into when I move the hand normal regular viewers Eat takeaways there going to be more interesting that this is more relevant to their day-to-day lives.

Because we didn't we want to tackle big mainstream subjects.

You know where we need to be part of the National conversation on BBC One so you want to take stories that are relevant to people's lives and some of that is also that how you tell stories and sometimes you can you know that people on the shoulder and say this is a story we should know about but often you wants it.

Also reflects people's own experiences and say we can have a look at into that we're going to do some journalism.

We're going to tell you something you didn't know about that subject and we going to tell you in a way.

That's really engaging.

I hope so, there's a kind of innerwear on nearly every week of the year so within that there's always going to be a mix of patient and social affairs consumer international current affairs as well and I hope that across that that the Year across the range of programs it gives them their Dusseldorf bit of a pickle make something for everybody but it also tells akai national story episodes.

Investigative journalism by it's very nature is investigative if you get the can of sniff of some potential wrongdoing how often do you look into it and then you think will actually there isn't any wrongdoing know what is the kind of that you know if you have 10 ideas for programme.

How many of them come to our overall success rate rubbing a failure reason it and you have to look at that and interrogate whatever the story is for for for a hole in a whole number of ways and you have to be really careful not to bring any kind of biases you have to a story and I'm not leap to have doesn't it? Because you know there's a really high evidential bar and we are always measured about against egg.

Against the law in that when that's absolutely right that we are so on investigating.

Look a lot different sides, but then there are other stories that you just think that's a great story so or an important story to tell and to tell properly so for example see we did a program towards the end of last year about the poisonings in Salisbury and we had that commission BBC One can a commissioner hour-long programs which we make a number of through the course of the year and we recognised it immediately as a story which was going to have ramifications and there was definitely areas that we could work on um and more that could emerge and I think those sorts of programs where you are telling a really difficult but important story but with it you will have they will be news that you are you now showing the audience for the first time war interviews.

War footage is a really important way of presenting journalism, I suppose do you have any kind of memorable programs that you've made recently mean that I remember the some incredible episodes like the one about the contaminated blood scandal in the faulty medical implants exposes.

Do you have any can a favourite stories over the light will stay over your tenure that you invest the most time in our are the big investigation your favourites probably the wrong word isn't its most memorable most impactful.

I suppose you personally kind.

If I think yes success can mean different things in Panorama but that's a great question what what does success mean then, please carry on and well.

Some of it is obviously about the audience are watching it some of it is about how big the story is that you break and how much sudden Impact that has some of it is about the kind of audience the or reaching exposing wrongdoing.

Open Grinder with two accounts, so they've been layered.

So it's obviously true.

That's what I think is a viewer.

I think if they've said it is almost certainly true I bet my life on it, so I suppose I for programs that I that stand out I suppose I think we do all our programmes are really good genuinely I think that and but in terms of pasta a bigger story is one was about undercover in immigration detention centre, Colnbrook house.

I remember watching those who was horrendous and a hat in a good way.

You know now in an impact for wear when they're actually went out and a brilliant team behind it did an amazing job but as a taking you into a place you would never otherwise see and holding power to account in the most sort of Stark

Clearest way, just hidden camera footage minutes and it really looks like and it's really was really really shocking generation and had it and had a huge impact and you know it's it's very difficult to pull those pull those things off you watched it as the viewing thing ending.

How can we treat other human beings this way and that profound so I'm very incredibly proud of the team that worked on that the paradise papers very different type of Investigation and also one of those subjects about how do you know which isn't an easy sell for the audience actually.

Do you know how many businesses are offshore and aren't paying tax anymore in this country and do you know what impact that have on our public services as a question.

You know Frontline workers underpaid more tax for 1.

I just say really really difficult to get over the line because of the BBC

Is liars back to the fat liver in The Paradise papers, they can afford bigger lawyers than you've got a very very different so totally but a program that we did last year called murder on the streets, which was the source a story about a young boy Raheem Barton who was killed in South London last summer and we were privileged enough to be allowed to follow his his friends and his family and spend some time with them in the wake of his murder and I'm it was just in it.

Obviously one boy's story, but I think told a bigger at tells a bigger national picture and I think as a really important role for Panorama they're just just looking at some subjects in-depth rather than everything having to be two of you know quick Twitter style news and the last one which again is really different.

But last year we broadcaster pro grab an omelette was made in 1979 about Jeremy Thorpe and as a sort of example of a fantastic Panorama where power is held to account on a program that could never be broadcast before I just thought it was a great example of how relevant the sort of Legacy of the program is do you have a formula or a can of ratio in Minder ever whole year's worth of panoramas in terms of what you might cover week.

We have Steve Crabtree it in the chair last year and he's there the BBC's editor of Horizon that your science Strand and he said what he said roughly said I would want you no quarter of the and that the year to be about physics and science the rest of it might be about health and then something to eat space and you can of knows what a years of programs will look like overall you want to make sure that nothing false with the cracks, but deep do you have that in terms of like one might be social affairs all Might Be politics.

You know you have to touch brexit.

What might be a mad axeman on the loose in the police haven't caught.

Happy and well is it doesn't there's a balance there because you do it's always when you're doing weekly program there needs to be some planning her think it's fair to say Anastasia certain number that you need to plan ahead and but you also need to stay really relevant and sort of reactive and you want to tell the stories that matter to people's lives and never quite know what they're going to be but so am and you are dealing with very different types of programs.

We had a program about brexit with Adrian Chiles are we made that in three weeks.

I watch that was it shot in his flat Recreation of the program sabbatic.

That's actually a very sort of quick program to make and there are other Street like grenfell.

We did a week after grenfell.

We made a program others take.

That's not his house.

You're a teacher that can take years so you have to get the sort of balance of that there's some quite practical things in there as well, but broadly about you know a course of our programs are social affairs about a quarter should be consuming they should mainly all be about this country.

I think we sort of tend to have four or five foreign films over the course of the year and you know you can't do investigations every week, but I have a rule that if anybody brings me good story.

I'll always try and do it because ultimately that's what we therefore without a journalism when were both with her to break stories one of the amazing things about the BBC's journalism and its commitment to truth is whenever the BBC itself is under fire ost.

You know coming under trouble from various things and thinking of hotter than all these actress the BBC's coverage of its own problems more than actually other broadcast is it? How does it work in terms of Anna panorama?

How to cover some some tricky issues within the BBC how do you how do you manage the Chinese walls, are you currently investigating Tony Hall this is my real question I suppose myself starting point is that Panorama needs to investigate Without Fear or favour right and that's incredible as well.

Isn't it? Will be easier on bosses if they need investigation will be investigated and really important questions about the program.

I think so you sometimes have to tackle difficult subjects and actually I did do a program last year about the gender pay gap at the BBC and it in terms of Chinese walls.

It was actually really straightforward.

I didn't find it.

Did that bit of it difficult sand.

What's my buses in current affairs and that was it in a corporate bit of the BBC dealt with the response to our program so it actually was I think there's a recognition across the BBC that we will investigate the BBC occasioning.

It's important part of of of the program Douglas many years ago.

He was then the BBC's Media correspondent.

He said that he when he was covering BBC issues.

He would just go straight to the BBC press office just like any other press office and sometimes it get fobbed off as you would put anybody else that you investigating and see what the responses that you get back office of managing that can a Day Today programme flow where do you want to take the program are generally in the medium to long term? What will Panorama look like safe for a 5 years from now try to approach that in a similar way to I approach the subject about Watch review doing next week and next year so I think bro.

Totally you want to make a program that is relevant to people's lives and I have at its heart investigative skills and festive journalism and telling telling people new things now.

I've already talked about I've done a program about takeaways.

Got a program about social media influencers.

We did a program last year about addicted to my smartphone.

We're living through a moment where technology is changing our lives and there are some parts of regulation that are struggling to keep up with that and I think that's emerged over the last tours of two or three years is quite strong team and so I hope that we will always continue to recognise that our Society is changing the way we live our life is changing and Panama and will stay relevant to that but beyond that I suppose it's always about taking on the biggest targets identify.

Buying the stories that I think really matter to our audience and finding out the truth about them and how we deliver that program.

I suppose that journalism two people is changing already.

We got a match you know we live outside of our 8:30 BBC one slot we've got a really big social media presence.

We're on iPlayer we're on YouTube so I think taking our journalism in our material to wear our audiences go is really important, but I think the sort of values they have been Central to Panorama for the last 65 years will continue to be relevant because we're holding power to account and I hope that we are always finding out truth about stories that matter to people if those stories will change over time.

I'm sure but as long as Panorama is so very active and responsive then I think it will stay relevant because the value stay the same stay the same exactly and I think that there's a funeral.

Where's the sort of the shifts to power all-consuming tv? Differently and watching things online it does it there still a lot of value in I'm going to tell you the truth.

I'm going to tell you what really happened with this story all that story on your toe something.

You've never heard before it's going to blow your mind those that the storytelling might change but the filling, it really is it's really it's really exciting and it's a real privilege to just be able to focus on those areas.

Do you have like a procedure where if something huge happens like gren for where you go to a bit like the BBC One controller and say I need you to clear an hour of the schedule on Wednesday to run this the disc on a big ad hoc program at how does that work or do they come to you and say you need to do something on grenfell, and you know you've got 3 days to put a program together, but we've got a brilliant relation.

BBC One and very supportive of Panorama and I think they want BBC one wants to be and is a channel that is reactive and reflects what's happening in the country.

So there is a there was always an expectation that if there is a very big news events the Manchester terror attacks the Westminster terror attacks the great fire at grenfell also the general election that was all within a short period of time.

We would be in a position to cover them and provide the audience with more depth than I just getting from from the news and we know that people really come and watch those programs.

They really engaged with and they really want more information about whatever important news events happening so it tends to be a conversation, but there are always open to new ideas and discussion around the stories that we think matter and

Scheduling and slots as part of that conversation I mean clearly the schedule is commitment to Panorama now feel secure but there was a period of time.

Where was bouncing around the schedule is quite a bit was that I paid work with can unloved by BBC management of that's that's how it felt as a viewer III feel that panoramas got a important place on BBC One now, and we have a really great slot on Monday night, so I might experience of that goes it's been panoramas sit somewhere between music current affairs on television and it's a kind of an interesting space, but my experience with that has always been that the work that we have done has been supported promoted by news and by and by the one and investigative journalism by train.

He is going to be a hard slog.

It's going to be expensive you know given that you know I'm paraphrasing w1a here, but they can have more for less time think it is something that you know.

Suffering under boob futurecuts, yes it right that we were talking about before is indicative of the fact that you will probably end up having a lot lot more misses and hits on investigations and 11:00 at the beginning of one where it's going to end and if it's going to be even and dinner program and it's it's difficult to it can be difficult to juggle out which is why we do make different types of programs as not just big investigations.

I think that panoramas had to keep up with the way that the industry changed and I only work really efficiently within that so you know where use their producers that can shoot more now and there's lots of different changes.

We've made to make sure that we really efficient program, but we still will always prioritise the big stories and the most ambitious investigations because that's that's all we therefore that's our job at the end of the day.

It's just something that a viewer would see that's

Just changed in Panorama that's been result of you taking on the editorship for example for me as if you ever seems to be a more diverse range of onscreen reporters that I would say there's one of your personal achievements as editor one of my parties my account Panorama was to rain in the range of reporters and presenters.

I think they're a report as a really important part of the program actually I'm helping tell the story of the journalism.

I am so for example if used to ASDA Healy to do the takeaways program with use bandwidth use Catrin Nye but of course we know it's also important to work with a reporters Who been affected with Panorama for a longer time like John Sweeney and Jane Corbin so I'd say that's that's one part of it.

I say I think I'd have slightly shifted the subject-matter a bit having a background in news.

I think means I'm really motivated by wanting to.

Generate new stories and feeling like you're telling me all your something new wherever we can is an important part of the program to me.

Do you think of how the programs going to go out with visually when you're in a can of concept stage of planning at an episode? Is it worth Alison subjects that are just physically difficult to put two air on Thames Television because it might be but I'm only text base and hundreds of documents.

It is the something like you know.

What is that? We have to get the creativity flowing is just how to get it to a television screen.

Yes, I think that storytelling in journalism is really difficult if I'm honest and when you get something like the paradise papers and you have a huge data dump the first stage is always stand behind the journalism and then how we going to put this together and tell this tell this story is a real is a real challenge and I think that as doc.

Trees have got better and better and as there's more competition for people's time as we know that challenges is kind of coming to shot relief for current affairs.

I would say and I think we have a rising to the challenge of that and sometimes that's about finding really great characters and using them to help you.

Tell a story and sometimes.

It's about feeling like you're really on that journey with that journalist, but it's a good each program brings its own challenges.

I suppose I would never not do a story because it's difficult television you agree to do it in your mind you decide to do it and then you think right now.

You're doing it.

How do we visualise it go alongside each other but you can't sort of set the bar at we can't do that really important piece of journalism, Not sure how good it's going to look on telly.

It's usually the journalism that comes first in the

I think about storytelling after that because if you think about the Panama papers, it's an incredibly important subject, but essentially what if I was producing it now.

What are the visuals are USB drive some bloke coming through a dossier papers a lady looking at a screen scrolling through so he's it's not exactly exciting said a few shots of Belize beaches of course in a bottle of that what else could you do that thing because there's so many stories associated with technology now and they all suffer from a similar challenge and yes, it's similarly you're trying to think about social media and actually just shot two people watching phones it out they cannot they can't last that long.

So yeah, I think that's that's one of the challenges that we're facing it's the Beginning at you know.

What did you study at university? Did you always want to be a journalist? Was it television journalism that you wanted to do the other wanted to be headed how ambitious? Will you have always been really really interested in the news.

And I've always really really loved watching television and I think you have to really love watching television to work in it.

I'm still in use junkie now, so I think that being a news junkie with my starting point because it didn't feel like work right.

Just reading papers or watching the evening News and even as a teenager I used to just watch an enormous amount of news every night without thinking that much about what that meant I wanted to do I study politics and works in politics actually briefly but then decided to go and study in America and I study journalism and politics there and that coincided with a presidential election and that's really why I got my break because I went to work for ITN as I can in turn and that's how I started it Channel 4 news then as well.

And I don't think I've ever been I never set out to be an editor.

I've always just tried to do whatever job I am doing at that time as well as I could and this plan is to not actually have a plan and I learnt a huge amount that Channel 4 news in our eyes started to serve as an intern there and then and then became a producer was a producer for many years that it's a group programme journalism with a couple of quick advert breaks in the middle and huge amount Jon Snow and really just really really enjoyed it and I really enjoyed the kind of creativity of putting TV and live TV together and took that obviously with me, too.

Chinese night and when I was at Newsnight I did do you know a certain amount of investigations there but Panorama is really a Canon next level in terms of investors and Pollux it's a pure when you're at home.

I like Newsnight on Channel 4 you have a mixer sort of reportage like to hear that DE7 culture and and where is a Panorama you're really you're really focused on breaking a story and that's that that's an enormous talons and an amazing privilege.

What was Newsnight like at late? It was on late.

It was quite tiring so you have to take it to wear and then he went home after you came off at 11:30.

So that's ok.

That's not too late, but but surprisingly difficult to switch off after you making live TV I really enjoyed.

I'm working on Newsnight it's it's a brilliant format where you have you know you do three or four subjects over 40 minutes and you really have the depth and daily news can't do that in the same way and they're just so much happened while I was there are general elections and referendums and it was an incredibly busy time politically Jeremy Paxman was the main presenter at this point was determined absolutely brilliant and sort of forensic analysis to whatever subject or interview.

We did and I learnt a huge amount from him.

Who was great.

So it was respectful of his interviewees, but there was always what I would consider to be a healthy amount of cynicism.

It was on there to ridicule or humiliate nobody would say come on minister.

Tell people to account definitely and I've actually itsu.

Medical of panoramas as well for me since Newsnight and he brings a great sort of in a brings an argument and he brings us of strength of character to whatever stories he's covering which is incredibly impressive when you're at the moment on Panorama but there will be a time when your successor is appointed.

What advice would you give to someone who aspires to be the next editor Panorama what qualities do they need to take an over your succeeding in the chair support in that team and guiding that team is a huge part of the job actually.

I think that you need to be quite clear sighted about what you want to achieve and try and find some sort of carve out the subject so important to you and Hitler really biggest the really biggest stories a certain amounts when you're sick.

In the chair it comes to you if your sim in and it's about how you respond and how you and how you deal with that happens happens at a certain amount you drive as I suppose anyone who you are as it is the sort of is the balance of that.

What are the stressful aspects of the job and they really that bad.

It's difficult because you just as good stress and there's bad stress.

Isn't there.

I think my job has both the certain stressful things about my job that I actually enjoy even the moment.

That's gets paid running and then his other things were you actually worried about things.

Are you trying to reconcile conflicting priorities? Where you it's difficult just doing the right thing by this program by Panorama I think it's a really sore vital program.

I think it you don't wanna be the only so that Cox the job up.

Looking after a Legacy of 65 years and I think about the people that sort of grafted the lawyers the hours of meetings and over that time to get it right and turn our reputation you know it's it's not it's hard for every program is hard for on some level and so this could have big picture stresses you want to maintain the importance and the pride in that program the sort of low-level stress is so aside from getting it right week in Week Out the low-level stress as you know always thinking about what the audience are going to want to watch what they going to be interested in you know have you got the right mix of programs, but usually I would characterize it as good stress.

You know big decisions.

Got to get the judgement right as well.

I mean and that's another thing is almost an existential issue when you could write a PhD on this, but how do you how do you continue to innovate and therefore take real?

Risks without obviously getting it wrong.

Well.

I suppose there's different types of risk taking it within Panorama you do not take risks on facts.

You do not broadcast Hunters hours.

That's why don't you last about three weeks in the job and Incredibly impressive reggae? I really do every line of the scripts.

Everything is carefully thought about and analysed we get a lot of support from lawyers and we get a lot of support from this department within the BBC that's called editorial policy and just having those complicated editorial conversations about what can you say what can't you say what's balance? What's independence? What's training over the line at website duty of care beginning and all of those are areas where you don't want to take any risks that kind of interesting risks or the Innovations iPlayer

More and the subjects that you take on so taking on subjects that are relevant to young people's lives for example like social media influencers or smartphone addiction, so that's where I think you can begin to find out you know where your audiences and what they're interested in and the other risks are wet how how programs get people so saying we going to really invest heavily in what we doing on Facebook or what we doing on YouTube and those that sort of interesting areas to take risks around but like truth and fact there's no there's no risk taking and it works like some people don't want to watch the whole half an hour and BBC One but they will watch I can have 6 minutes summary of it on YouTube The not at all, Lots of different ways.

We haven't an enormous amounts of brand recognition but some

People might have just heard about something with done on the news or some people might have just seen the video that we put out on on Facebook and that's fine.

I think it's about reaching people in what a whatever platforms.

Are you? What about the risks to life and limb you don't wait if you're doing a long-term deep undercover investigation at a detention centre for example.

I'm sure you have a willing reported.

He wants to do it but on the other hand they could get stabbed dinner in a prison fight.

I mean you've got to expose the wrongdoing and cover the story but on the other hand you can't mitigate the risk completely ultimately doubt there's going to be some day today.

We think a huge amount about that and how to support the journalist that we work with and in some cases the subject of our other of our investigations and you know it's always a balance really what what we want to do at Panorama is expose sort of systemic and Institute

No wrongdoing and that and that there's always a balance there then with how long you stay on an undercover investigation or when you approach the subject of your investigation, but we are extremely proud of our record.

I think I would say and I don't want to talk about ongoing investigation of CB weeks extremely proud of our record in terms of safety and in terms of duty of care and one of the things that's extraordinary about Panorama and the people who are companions.

How long has relationships last you know you stay in touch with the people that you have work with people who've appeared on your programs often for years and so those relationships are real Andy the impact of those programs are real AK simulator can last for years.

We can have court cases government reviews and we is an important part of the responsibility of our program.

I think to stay across all of that.

If you were investigating me, I think one of the things I want to do is offer you a lot of cash in a brown envelope.

Have you ever kind of investigated a dodgy market traders said come on.

Love, you know his first founded go where has it been any interesting anecdotes of attempts to bribe your beyond the standard lawyers letter and admit that I've done my DPC anti-bribery course of course.

No, I haven't actually they start to say that there aren't attempt to influence in properly droid stuff.

If I'm honest like when somebody makes an effort to influence the programme going to make it that that's quite clear your independence course.

You're not going to be influenced by them but

You only get to that point once you've got a lot of evidence I suppose Rachel it's been hugely interesting conversation.

I've been looking forward to having on the forecast for so long and a massive fan of Panorama please keep up the great work and thank you for your time.

Thanks so much for having me.