Read this: #37 - Cohen leaves the BBC, FOIs mental health dramas - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm Ollie man on today's show as director of television Danny Cohen looks set to leave the BBC we examine the state of the channels will be leaving behind as new detective drama river Focuses on a fragile protagonist.

I speak to the charity mind about the representation of mental health in the media and also on the show why we all might be making fewer foi requests which podcasts are leading the way stateside and we chat all things mid.com in the media quiz that's all coming up on today's Media podcast and joining me today back in our regular home at the hospital club well, what a panel.

I have for you the Dream Team first off broadcast consultants with the Voice to male 2 million hearts it is Paul Robinson hello mumma goodness.

I have no that 3 years.

How nice.

Vanderhaeghen from sidelines as you can hear what a pleasure it is to welcome back the grand high priestess of meteorite is Maggie breath in the last few months because you've been everywhere as usual but you were at mipcom which is in can when the rains came from Renown was traumatic this year because on the Saturday nights of course it may come work of course.

It was all hard work all the way and the rain just came down initially quite heavily and then in Torrance I got back to my apartment and the ceiling of come down.

So I'm sorry this is obviously I Know Podcast the base of my ceiling while so you can see the whole thing came down completely had to find a new place to stay I mean the really sad news is that 21 people died the water was like a river you could see cars and older consumers the route of the cars the bonnets and the rest of course completely covered and there's a tunnel underneath the railway bridge to Camden heathbridge and that's filled with water.

So people couldn't get out of their cars because the pressure of water.

They drive in their cars.

It was tragic conference remember for all the wrong reasons, but we'll talk a little bit later as I'm the ideas that came out of me.

You've been doing something more provincial globetrotting, but you've been at the Cheltenham Literature Festival and hosting a session about Dennis Potter a discussion about him and his influence it seems to me he remains the Titan of kind of credible literary TV drama.

What was the consensus? Who is the current Dennis pottery if there is one who wrote marvellous Blackpool which is a television drama that use the same technique having lip synced periods songs are interspersed in the drama.

He was supposed to be on my panel, but term I think he's know the such a hot writer that he's really busy, so he didn't turn up but I had an asteroid who was the producer Pennies From Heaven and also produced Dennis is very last work karaoke and cold Lazarus that was the posthumous work that partly went out on the BBC paw.

Who went out on Channel 4 and I had the director Piers Haggard old Pennies From Heaven who actually devised that method of marrying songs with an activist in Congress thing which actually made quite a bit of story which ends actually with a man having facing the hangman's noose into something which was sweetened and became a massive hit and cost Potter then went on to Hollywood where they made that Pennies From Heaven film which was unfortunately not a great success, but he did make a lot of money that way so no it was interesting though.

There wasn't much consensus because I think one problem is that I think it shows are Asian away that I don't need anybody under 30 really knows who Dennis Potter is but I enjoyed it because something really did happen.

He made he broke away from the Cathy come home because I'm not feeling that everything had to be very natural and Graham into something that could be a kind of fantasy and it could television could do so much more and that.

What is inheritance which goes on to the status the Sword of all such pieces which are now very much for the hallmark of British drama which actually read this effortlessly onto our first topic today because there's arguably very few opportunities for drama that audacious on the mainstream channels at the moment and arguably one of the men who is responsible for that was the director of television of the BBC Danny Cohen at his announced this week.

He's going to be leaving in the autumn and now he's overseen as part of this role massive hits the Great British Bake Off call the midwife and Poldark although Andrew Pierce sit staring in the Daily Mail was keen to point out he was also the Man responsible for snog Marry Avoid and eff off.

I'm a hairy woman Maggie whatever Danny Cummins track record the BBC's in turmoil over charter renewal at the moment.

So this isn't a great time to go that surprised because I felt for some time, but he didn't actually look to the body language.

Danny Cohen and the top brass at the BBC I didn't seem in sink and I'm saying this is somebody who's been observing them at the different industry kind of confidence literally body language.

Well.

I think it's like you're bored.

I think it's about BBC culture of this is what is been striking me as I think about them is that with Cohen going? Where are the succession plans for the Grande's who are supposed to run the BBC of the future and we've actually had a breakdown in this kind of training which arguably John Burt succeeded in doing in the 1990s but since and a track record of other people being supposedly put into the role or people who've been brought into the BBC to be director-general.

Greg Dyke for example from outside Peter Fincham RGB controller BBC one and two gone on to be maybe don't return David liddiment before that who was the big star ITV they don't seem to bed into the BBC culture, so when they was.

A crisis over George Entwistle they have to go and get back a BBC man Tony Hawk when I have a crisis now over a who's going to run BBC Studios which they hiving off they they reach 4 piece of salmon, who's moved everybody up to Salford a so it goes and even our seeing Alan Yentob today well apart from Some Might Say his prime at the BBC but the creative director I still the right-hand man of Tony Hawk so I think he is a loss.

He was a young.

You might say contender.

He's had unrivalled experience really running both remember that channel 4 he was basically most senior person that I mean I didn't with him there when he was in charge of Big Brother as it went out live and he devised systems to monitor what was being said where and when universe of notes taken them and he was really a hands-on personal pictures, so I think it is a loss for the BBC but I think it probably is his game.

You can't really blame him know can you pull in a way for stepping?

Side because as I was saying making reference to Andrew Pierce in the mail that im in the day he leaves there's this article about how he's this kind of left-wing metrosexual metropolitan elite who has his Oxbridge wife and dad are done his prejudices about this and that nothing really about the programs.

He's actually made it thinks he commission 5 years ago when you work for you to Channel you can go off and work for Netflix or Amazon in the States and just not have to deal with all that hassle and probably for more money will I die during the Daily Mail is a contributing Factor in him leaving but I think Maggie says he's is interesting and I think I broadly agree.

There is a degree of scrutiny and accountability that comes with the BBC I'm a mess right of course given its publicly funded and if he has a desire to go off and be more creative maybe less of a suit.

I'm here to do that an organisation such as those he mentioned without that's good news only BBC 8 years.

So he was on a real fast tracking when he was a very young controller BBC1 a very young retro television is only John that job for 2 years which isn't what is a bit too short.

And I think we would have seen more good things in a come from Danny but I think Maggie's right.

I think I think that dress of television is not really a creative job.

Will they are actually setting the agenda for television is much more of a political job is much more about persuading the benefits of the licence fee about managing in a very large creative community and is not necessarily about the commissioning.

I think maybe he might have been happiest at is a job the controller and we're actually you literally are you know shaping and managing channel is that record record will be seen as very positive thing for him.

He's young 40-41.

I'm he can go off and do many things and maybe it's time to go as Americans aventurine.

You know where for Hulu or Netflix on American studio or whoever.

It is and of course.

You know he's not the first time profile person to leave the BBC in the last 2 weeks the other one being the senior vice president of digital BBC worldwide right-hand man to Tim Davie he's gone off to Netflix to go and had their technical operations in the US so I think you have the BBC use you as a place where.

Creative content making is actually at its very best dramas has been the main driver of all these new OTT services are having Danny Cohen there in a bring you some of that magic would be a very very smart mobile one of these OTT providers a place that struggles to hang onto its Talent at suit level because you know other places can control the date on a global basis is always suggesting to work for all these sort of trendy net companies at the BBC can't do that.

Well.

I'm in television and under the industry is changing really really fast let's face it and there's this massive American interests as We Know in British television my reading of Danny Care now.

She is that before he was at the BBC I know he was a massive fan of things like Dickens he's in many ways that traditional Oxbridge graduate and I think in a way too much came too soon the criticisms of BBC3 are not really Justified He inherited quite a lot of those rather outlandish titles.

I think he he felt a lot of the proposals they put forward for example he want.

I wanted to BBC plus one to help a boost with that was turned down a lot of their plans are continually being held up or scrutinize having his supposed to be the person who proposed closing BBC3 well.

It's still under debate.

It's clearly a difficult organisation.

He's definitely criticized for organising a revolt by the at Talents against the government's moves on the BBC all of this box on a fox a major thing because of it was an earlier which is what we believe is the case because Tony all said no you know what you don't mind happening once or twice to happened several times after you start to feel a bit down down by yeah, so actually what happens if he does bit of gossip here, but if he does end up going to Amazon the ends up being Jeremy Clarkson's new boss should Clarkson be worried about that.

The biggest going at it's going to be either Netflix or Hulu oriskany Hollywood studio think he wants to get in American broadcasting company.

That's what I've heard the rumours about and why not ABC ABC I don't know exactly what will happen at Channel 4 either because for example it just think it's true.

It's had a fairly stable team for 5-6 years and we've got to have certainly change and Away With a new chairman coming in and how long do people stay in their jobs as chief executive of you might say this status long as they can all you might say they go on to other things to so that they will be available jobs going but I do think it opens up this big question of how you train the next order of people to be really really big players at the BBC is there is no obvious successful BBC you know you can't say there's a number of candidates.

But are they really right? I'm not sure I mean what it means if you can only be a top BBC person if you've almost been a life at which is not a healthy situation either ok next up fo eyes.

Wherever you are in the country Freedom of Information requests or foi.

I'll be Weapon of Choice for investigative journalists were there on staff at ITN or an ultra local news website, but the government is currently Consulting on changes to foi.

I would talk of increasing charges for requests and why do powers for ministers DeVito sensitive material Mackie for those of us who have read lots of stories based on fic quoted from them.

I broadcast about them and I've never actually done one.

What is the process involved in getting a freedom of information request.

How do you go about it at the moment? I think I've put one in and nothing came back.

So who to the police and it was.

When I was writing my Channel 4 history and now I'm trying desperately to remember but I know I didn't get anywhere which was rather sad, but you already hurting brick walls if ever done one ball.

Never done one therefore no no success, but no failure.

Ok, so do we know what the changes are that they actually want to make it is 15 years old? I think a review after 10 years is no bad thing.

I'm in most things shouldn't and are to be reviewed to keep them healthy the problem with this review is that it seems partly to be an attempt to rain in the amount of freedom of information we get to change the rules and that's how the questions artist the seven questions sort of which have been posted which that they do seem to be framed in that spirit and the other problem is that it could be that there are things that need to be addressed, but that's for.

The journalistic quickly, that's what makes you very worried II because overall let's face it freedom of information is a great thing even if in the government size.

It was inherited from a Blair government the second thing is that the panel of people who has been put in charge of the review you might argue are it's perfectly balanced.

So you have a pier from each party.

I only have Dame Patricia Hodgson who is the chairman of money have they have these grandy is but all of them.

You might say have an establishment view of this that probably a little bit more restraint is a good thing and this is why you don't have to belong to the extreme paranoid wing this to be concerned about it the other thing that strikes me as I know it's been a better at this look like people only have a month and I've till the 20th of November to put in their responses which is kind of a twinkle of the I really and in.

The speed of of the modern world giving it's something that so fundamental if you like to the way we we have a free and open Society ok so Maggie Paul says that its fundamental.

How do you agree and b? Is it always justify them? It only thing that seems to kick all of this off with the Guardians constant attempts through the court to get access to the black spider memos so-called which is Prince Charles's scribblings about homoeopathy Ian here at the minute.

Is that close to another rest of it, which actually when they were publish weren't any great shakes where they but they did spend a long time trying to fight for the right to get them was that a Step Too Far that case well.

I think the prince Fulham fa why is important? I think it's critical that we have the opportunity to exercise foi request now.

What's the purpose of this? Review has Maggie says you know the outcome of any review is the function of those he wants to do the reviewing so given.

We have a fairly establishment panel will be it is a distinguished panel and also we know she had some very well from Ofcom and also a time of the BBC had the great pleasure of working with her.

She's a Formula 1 and very intelligent woman.

You know.

Look like a severe establishment point of view the government argue that they have something like 30600 non-routine requests year was about 120 per working day with a lot and how many of those are Justified and how many of those are tyre kicking because there is not a huge.

It's about 6 million pounds a year so if the government of gender is trying to save money or they might save some money is not gonna be very much is going to be peanuts to be lost in the rounding so I think the review take its place.

I share a little bit of Maggie's concern.

There is a hidden agenda here, but I think ultimately review a sensible as long as ever why is retained if there is some additional fine-tuning to ensure that money time is not wasted.

That's a good thing, but I thought why is vital to our freedom information and to our democracy one of the problems is that the executive executive have a visa right of veto and this future.

They tried to exercise famous who were the Prince of Wales's rambling.

Two ministers and that this was obviously overturned the bigger use of the retailers in five has been actually to stop access to the Iraq war documents and cabinet documents and this has led to debate which I mean one can do it.

This is a very offensive review or it's it's a sensible review the question is what is a safe place where people of position and authority including Innova cabinet responsibility issues.

What places, can they have completely off the record free and Frank discussion without it necessarily being at a formative stage being asked for land and put out in the public the Supreme Court have really challenge the sweeter the does something would have to be sorted out at this point in time.

It is a really good point.

I think no one is going to question that where there's issues of National security particularly relating to terrorism.

Indeed there needs to be some control but the question is along the Continuum of that has been one extreme.

There's a big grey area and that's exactly where we got to debate and of course that grey areas, where would the Potters can we consume let's see what the campaign comes up with I think healthy scepticism is a good position are currently putting out their call for evidence if you want to complete the questionnaire.

You can make plain your views on foi the link on our web site B Media podcast.

Comm news in brief still to come but before we go to the break this week saw the launch of a new drama on BBC One river written by ABI Morgan and starring stellan, Skarsgard as John river a detective with mental health issues a fractured mind according to the program website at if you think that sounds a bit like Homeland you're not alone, but how did drama producers insure a faithful portrayal of say depression or Aspergers or dementia? You could start by talking to Alison Carey

Media at the charity mind which is what I did and I Began by asking her what she thought of river great big Cass that's actually looking at mental health and mental well-being and what's particularly interesting is that it's just the central character to the program and that isn't something that we received that often in the past think we've seen mental health in dramas, but not necessarily for the right reasons and sometimes he might find their it's a kind of character.

That's just passing through the soap all the drama and it's quite two-dimensional character.

It's not really really get under the skin of the character.

They've got a mental health problem and then unfortunately they tend to show them doing something something bad or something dangerous, so it's really interesting to now be at a time when we seeing complex characters characters that of a lot more in depth and that would that we we see the cast of The Fragile complexity.

It is the nature of that is that character trying to link that car to Steve is murder otherwise you taste an innocent man to his death and his girlfriend is expecting a baby gone to the breast.

How did together?

I'm struggling here, but I'll take you over roomful of those games.

Any idea the fact that he is imagining people around him is obviously affecting the quality of his work, but it's sort of employees that in some way.

It's making his work better is making him better his job in some strange way because he's able to channel is emotion into detective work it strikes me that although it's very fresh and it's written from his perspective in you have sympathy with him.

That is still a bit of a cliche isn't the most people have mental ill health does not help them in their job.

He seems to be experiencing some kind of hallucination perhaps some kind of psychosis, but we're not as yet as a viewer.

We don't understand exactly what that it is in fact.

You know you could watch the first episode and it could have just been that you were seeing ghosts and it was like the sixth sense to you.

We haven't really really got into that.

Yeah, I think what is good is that you see an employer that is aware that there's something not quite.

And there it is an employee therein and is down sky sky bet he is struggling to deal with the grief from his partner's death of quite violent death and that he's employees actually sympathetics that and is encouraging him to seek some and support for his mental health and so I think it'll be interesting to see those scenes with the psychiatrist unfold as well over the next few weeks, although obviously that most schizophrenics for example.

Don't go on to commit murder some murderers are schizophrenics and its natural that a dramatist is going to choose a dramatic storyline which might be someone with schizophrenia becoming a murderer.

How do you get involved and say we understand why you want to tell that story but would like you to tell it realistically we did approach by and soaps and and Drama producers and I will come to us and ask for some advice about you.

How they are they going to develop their character and yes of course when it's a soap, they want to focus on the more dramatic end of the spectrum and we know that the vast.

Majority people with mental health problems, I just living their life and and dealing with the challenges and their life and not going to be a risk to do anybody but the dramas like to focus on the very extreme and what we're trying to do is try to influence I thinking because actually it would be I think of more unique to show someone living with schizophrenia and not going out meeting any murders but actually living with schizophrenia in living a full life with it and having friends and relationships and I mean nothing a program that has really impressed me about mental health with My Mad Fat Diary which was further comedy drama on Channel 4 and I mean that programme the character of Ray Earl she wasn't defined by her mental health problem.

She had mental health problems, but she also had no phone with her friends and she was facing all sorts of things that teenagers face at college and that with it was part of the story, but it wasn't the only part of the story talk about some famous recent examples, where would you put Homeland for example on that scale because you got a character they carried.

Unions identify ways, but I would say her Madness for want of a better phrase which has betrayed in the show sometimes is the feature of a character that if you were describing her you'd immediately point out how many thinking and the first series of Homeland I think it was fantastic in in raising awareness about bipolar disorder and how that can affect someone but also at the same time.

It was again.

It was a central character to the program and it was a character with incredibly impressive attractive young woman.

That's incredible that her job I have to admit in all honesty the after series 2.

I think I gave her some watching Homeland so I don't know where it's gone since then, but I was good but I did get people talking about bipolar disorder and and we know that when mental health is a feature of of dramas.

It can start a conversation which is also a really good thing which reminds me of that thing you know which we now use to hearing the continuity announcer you.

Have you been affected by the issues in this.

Programmed either.

That's something that only came about in the last couple of decades, isn't it? And it is an understanding that when people see her at an incident displayed on the screen that relates there in life.

They are going to be moved to Action something in their own lives arguably do you see spikes we certainly did and I think that that can be really good so for example last year after an episode of Coronation Street it was the storyline about and Steve McDonald I was experiencing depression and they put Minds contact details of the program and we did experience a surge in in a visit to our website and contact the next day to are infoline and so we know that prompted people to seek support and you never seen emails from people who have contacted mine and said im so grateful this story made me go and see my GP or it enabled me to have that chat with my mum for the first time because we could talk about it in the context of the storyline in that made it easier so we do know that it does directly impact People and it encourages help-seeking which is fantastic for producers listening to this.

The working on a drama at the moment or comedy I suppose or even a documentary that features mental health issues should they be getting in touch with you at what stage should they be getting in touch with you and saying we've got this content can can we work together we did anyone and he's thinking about covering mental health to get in touch with us as early as possible because it helps inform you the way that you look at the Script I think rather than just bring it to us when you are on your final draught.

Just doing it as a tick box exercise and the other thing it enables us to do when something we've done with quite a lot of soaps is we've involved people with lived experience of the specific and condition so whether it's someone with postnatal depression with someone with schizophrenia.

They've been able to go and meet the writer or meet the director or even the actor or actress and and helping form the way that that script is going to be portrayed and how it's going to play out and I think it's really important that you are talking to someone who's been there because they are the expert that they've lived through it and they'll be able to give you a more well-rounded characters and then if you don't.

Aston 14 support issue here, I should ask is that you know having worked on a phone in that was happening the middle of the night on LBC often people would call us in a fragile state and I'd say we hear some numbers for you and I'm not to be honest be absolutely clear at 2 in the morning, but that person was gonna receive help apart from from the Samaritans what is the support that mind offers two people is there a 24-hour number they can you call is it? Just office hours are available during the working day, but Samaritans we would always age people to contact smart as because they are there 24/7 and but throughout mind we have a network of over 150 local Minds across the country.

So if you're looking for counselling of you're looking for support with your your mental health.

You want to meet other people who've experienced similar things to use peer support can be very important you can access things fine mind ok, and if you've been affected by any of the issues discussed in this discussion, then you might be interested in the mind Media Awards which is coming along and a couple of weeks.

Isn't it? What's the Genesis of those and

Who were the big winners likely to be can you give me any tips on that phoned me to OL2 been going now for over 20 years and it started out really is there a way of trying to increase industry the media industry to recognise that they were being won't always handling mental health in the best possible way and we sort the media like to win Awards say yes, see you soon respond, so we were holding up examples of best practice and trying to reflect that back and so this year in the media Awards takes place 16th of November we've got Jo Brand hosting this year and Joe not remember.

There's been a psychiatric nurse in the past.

So when you know she's very interested in mental health and we've got some great and she's on that the soaps particularly of issue Coronation Street we got Hollyoaks and Emmerdale is all the biggest tower in the next potential by definition is the possibility of achieving more in a fast pace.

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Welcome back Maggie import are still with me now if you heard our last show you love heard my plea to keep the media podcast alive we have run out of money.

This isn't bullshit I am thrilled to say because of the support from a very small number of you, but very committed group of you.

We have been able to make a show this week at a quick look at our Media podcast totaliser reveals.

We've now had wait for it well donations.

So thank you to our twelve disciples, and we will take the first five of you at the end of this week's show but needless to say we need me any more of you to put your hands in your pocket if we're gonna hit our target of 300 donations if you enjoy this show, please pledge by going to the media podcast dot.com dedicate.

I know you've been looking into podcast sponsorship and it strikes me despite the massive growth in podcast and everyone so post cereal this and post cereal that there is a challenge in the UK to find people and companies who will

Best in podcasting yourself down a number 13 so when I get back as I go on the website play some money.

I think the BBC has struggled to find a funding model other than advertising and yeah, we seen advertising in the UK radio drop and is now coming up again, but it's still a real challenge and UK radio is not as well funded, as it could be and it's really completely fail to find another model and when it comes to podcasting the great thing is a course you got complete accountability.

You're not relying on some survey.

Not this range is not a good method but razor is a sampling methodology say you sample anymore to play up and you were hope that is going to be the actual listening and as an aside radar isn't a good method is a sample and it's not the real thing.

Where do the podcast you know exactly who is listened.

How long have listened to it? If you want you can find exactly who they are the problem is the advertising industry is not.

Really yet probably get up to exploit this and so you know why I went and talked to you about this very podcast and this is a very nice.

You know any other figures may look good, but they don't quite wanna make the link between you know where they are now and supporting something that they can't sort of get their fingers around the fact.

They can't see it being transmitted simultaneously everybody in the way radio is in a one-to-many.

This is people listening now when they're jogging in the park or there in the kitchen or there on the underground whatever they doing you know it's people different times and it's a great audience and a very powerful but you can't convince responses, so it is a struggle so more what to do when I think I think industry will catch up, but you know whistle of trying to do something that yet not accepted really by the advertising and sponsorship industry as a weird thing my dear.

I wonder the role that the BBC actually weirdly plays in the extent to which independent podcast is a struggle to find financing in this country because we are all wind on me.

Idea of quality programs and now quality podcasts Radio 4 5 live in the life being available for free at the point of use in the US that used to Public Radio that used to pledge drive that used to the idea that if you want something that sounds a bit more intelligent you have to pay for it.

Is that fair to do delay at the BBC of its disposition just wanting to shock jocks and whenever I am in America I've always listened to Public Radio practice pretty much always on in my daughter's house and kitchen, so I was really interested in this whole whole subject from that point of view.

I don't know whether the BBC's the culprit or not.

I just think the market survey different this week video us public radio station wnyc of announce their creating a podcast production house.

We know BuzzFeed are investing in podcast vice are investing in podcast at why is there all this podcasting bug in the USA

Tribal to re seemingly millions, you know we've got the bloke from start-up documenting his ability within a few weeks to generate millions of Dollars of investment for podcasting you can listen to podcast when you can't listen listen to the radio and as you walk around the globe now, but it's the US or it's the UK or it snow in Europe you see people listening to audio all the time.

They're not listen to live radio, but they are listening to audio and much of that his speech.

So this is a new opportunity in there's a new demand proof I think the other things in singers.

I'm inside from the content chief there guy called in Capel he said this is the way we can become a much bigger content company.

Very American it's also that protecting their staff.

They are under scrutiny terms of their financial resources 70 million a year they need to run and they have to actually rely on donations from listeners to make that work and they want to keep their talented staff there presenters near produces.

The enzyme produced is very important, so cuz they see.

Podcasting as a way of retaining that Talent very smart they can do it.

They have a cluster of raised 15 minutes not just gonna ride there gonna raise it to the test is going to be whether they can convince people if they do it may well be that might help us here back in the UK because we can use that sort of leverage.

They was working the state now, please cough up for the media podcast yetis American podcast as well.

They're actually slowly taking away some of the public radio logos of their artwork at and creating shows that just exist on minus on the BBC or actually doing that with the Radio 4 documentaries podcast is now called seriously dot dot dot with no reference to the BBC on the artwork because it's an international show Outlook if this discussion has parked in your mind you know any small niggling feeling that you might want to donate to us, please.

Please do go to the media podcast dot.com / dedicate at worried.

He'd actually fits part 2 discussion in your mind that perhaps you work in a place.

They can help us in the future Racing money is another way.

I do get in touch with us about that.

Ok.

Let's talk about some other news.

It's been going on Channel 4.

Fighting back this week against government proposals to privatise The Corporation David Abrahams spoke to the house of commons Media Select Committee on Tuesday for what did he say? What he said was the diff Channel 4 was privatized and it would need to make a profit about 200 million a year that's assuming Revenue about 93950 mm the current Channel 4 revenue so what you saying it to do that you bring in more money or you go to cut costs and a fundamental what that means is you change the nature? What channel fours about so what he says is to do that you have to have to put much more American content on their and critically lot more entertainment content so are you to Channel 4 moving away from dreams of being risk-taking doing innovative things doing things which are not provided by the rest of the market and focusing on big audiences and entertainment shows to make his money.

So fundamentally privatising Channel 4 changes what channel 4 is now Maggie Brown you are absolutely V Channel 4 expert and I've got a lot to say on this but as a friend Steve Hewlett would stay over at the media show.

Weekly if you can what do you think about this could Channel 4 survive in the open market and maintain their public service remit if you want to be a different place than ITV if you want it to be catering as it does some of the time for minority audience is hard to reach audiences if you want it to run dispatches at 9 and 10 at night on quite difficult subjects for example.

It's been great on Muslim extremism radicalisation and are forced marriages cetera, how to escape Isis those kind of subject then you can't really see it operating in a purely purely commercial wet behind all of this is a question of whether it should be just sold off.

I'm in Abraham was asked what he would have to budget for if you was running a commercial channel.

What would be the margin and he said it was between 20 and 30%

Channel fours revenue which is just under a billion pounds.

Oh, yes, of course that wouldn't necessarily eat into the program budget which is about 600 million, so that was a big big secondly of course he's concerned that if it were to be sold off its overall.

He's he talked about it.

Not being floated as a kind of come and get some shares tell Sid but actually sold as an entity which is when it would be most valuable obviously because you would get control of it, but it could be very easily sold to an American broadcaster Hill media company and that's in the long term with change.

Its whole Focus and there is a great truth to that because even before ITV whatever I see these spaces.

We have the example of it being able to change the kind of regulatory time at it Sunday nights and it's different to Channel 4 because Channel 4 is directly accountable to off, but we have seen ITV

Loosen its its regional tyres and its Commitments we seen it stopped doing children's original children's programme he seen it become very heavily entertainment oriented that's that's the that's the dance at the plus side is that perhaps how to remove a review of Channel 4 saying the ship something good can come out of this because it is a very strange organisation over the past 32 years.

It's changed from being completely subsidized by TV companies and owned by the regulator to be from 1990 onward apparently owned by us through the shareholder executive ie a publicly-owned company but selling its own advertising and now it's owned by the government but it's a commercial operation, but it's supposed to be a not-for-profit organisation said there's there's a lot of ambiguities built-in to channel for this position the good.

Come out of this would be some clarity about that.

It may well, be that at the end of the review people say well.

We adjust it, but we don't we don't sell it off but we perhaps make it clearer.

What is what would its public service return its duties to the country.

It might be that that changes a bit.

Do you think it could be as people have said a second channel 5 if it ended up being privatised obviously that's what David Abraham is warning us about what is going on at the moment.

Is that slots that could be very commercial the seven to eight hour the 9 to 10 sometimes the 10:50.

They are running program switch on the face of it are not commercial the commercial programs.

Are there too but they actually put a lot of public service programming in the main schedule of the primetime schedule.

That's the crucial thing that happens at the moment.

That's what we get from them.

So you do have.

Would you have to bear that in mind when we think about any change and I am a big fan of Channel 4 news? I'll say for the record speaking which actually talking journalism this week.

We got the sad news that the BBC reporter Sue Lloyd Roberts died of cancer at the age of 64 at Maggie cute a little bit about her career as a freelance 3D I'm going off to really tough as Warriors foreign stories.

I remember 12 where she signed off from it was on ITV News 10 report saying Sue lloyd-roberts with the disconnected and this was the programme about people who were so poor that they were being having their electricity cut off.

I think this is back in I don't know that harsh times in the 90s or something like that and she shoots she had this extremely I don't know it very clear enunciation.

She was absolutely focused on Injustice and stories that.

I really moved you and she was just I think that underneath it a very Steely formidable woman but with a heart of Gold unfair advantage to Maggie on the last two subjects the pool you might have a slightly unfair advantage in the media quiz because as we've established you were admit, and this week's the quizzes entitled mipcom or Glitchy just took your Glitchy are you I'm going to read out the names of some programs that have been pitched some of them would genuinely pitch at MIT, broadcasters and programme makers tout their wares some of them feature in a new ITV sketch show the premise of which is made up TV programme called Glitchy so it's quickfire just passing with your name when you know the answer the winner is found not guilty of aiding and abetting a police officer to commit misconduct in a public office here is program page number one is this mipcom or Glitchy buzzing with your name as social experiment come dating show called big.

Teeny Island Paul nick.com Greggs that was been counted at mipcom it is a format based on the show but exists in Denmark here is picture number to a show where participants but everything they own into storage for one month and survive without their possessions.

It's called stripped.

So you're saying not Glitchy not kitchenette smyths.com you are correct Maggie is one that is indeed a genuine format being touted on the French Riviera despite the floods ok still to play for then here is format number 3 a fixed rig show with exclusive access to thousands of BT public payphones in the show called 24hrs in a phone box is it, is a Glitchy that's a hard one.

I think Maggie

Because they weren't that many phone boxes that Paul is right.

It is from Glitchy it isn't that will thank you for those things to see you today because Maggie you've been here the whole sure to 12 mid level.

It's cool math number for a new structured reality format set in the Wirral called the real Jackie housewives of Birkenhead glitter.

He's got to say your name Paul Paul attwell Maggie I'm afraid Paul has Charlie come to you.

It is indeed a format from Glitchy the new ITV to show but still generally held to decide between the two support congratulations with the winner.

Thank you very much need I am I will enjoying my coffee and thank you sponsors of buying my coffee.

I'm really grateful that you are by no means a loser.

Please come back very soon.

Thank you.

You can find all of our previous installments and get me.

Once downloaded automatically straight to your phone just head to the media podcast dot.com today's show is dedicated to be following fantastic people who made it happen.

They are Hannah Cottle for laser Tom blakeson, and Jonathan Blunden and Andrew Barker here comes that dedication a retired mathematician and long ago TV producer for the BBC at The Open University who is still shocked at how poor press regulation and he's pleased at how well broadcast in your regulated that almost sounds like a picture via guest on the show Andrew WK being such a reminder that if you'd like to support the next episode go to the media podcast opcom / dedicate.

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