Read this: #60 - The Future of Radio - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

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Thanks to our sponsor than Media Masters podcast which this week features an interview with times colonist and Tory peer Daniel Finkelstein to listen to that just visit Media Masters.

FM welcome to the media podcast I'm only man at this week with something a little different for you to coincide with the radio festive phrases library gathered a panel or radio experts to discuss the future of the Airways will hear journalist Ruth Barnes speaking to friends of the media podcast Matt Deegan and Miranda Sawyer + Femi Edmund at a yummy me founder of Hackney radio station NTS and Helen Bowden Who at the time of this recording last week was the biebs director of radio at that was the Pinnacle in the BBC career spanning 34 years which came to an end on Friday when she announced her resignation will have more on the news of her replacement and all.

Because it from the media Industries as usual in the next edition of the media podcast for now though.

He's roof bar welcome to this special future of Radio podcast I'm response broadcaster and massive radio nerd and this discussion will be among the very first audio items to be catalogued in a brand new national radioarchive the British Library from next year.

We'll hit record across a number of Radio and audio streams to pilot watch should become an important and vital research tool for future generations so to the Future of radio a massive topic which we're going to get stuck into here with the help of our panel of industry experts Matt Deegan the creative director at folder media and runs the next radio conference welcome to the table hello good to be here.

We have Helen Bowden the director of BBC Radio hello.

Hello there we have Femi atoyebi the founder of global online radio station mfr.

And Miranda Sawyer Observer journalist and rabbits consumer of all things radio and audio indeed.

I am there is no doubt that.

This is the most exciting time to be working in radio as we all do but also to be listening to Radio there's tons of content out there there is there really is something for everyone potentially were getting into a time with those may be too much content people are overwhelmed with what there is out there to listen to my first question for all of you.

Really.

Is is what is radio to you? I guess any and in your position in the industry.

What is radio na start with you Matt what I'm gonna still somebody else's lying because like her things radiators good at is combining other people's content so I'll look a line through Michael James cridland.

Denise's radio is a shared experience with the human connection and what he was getting out.

Was it we can all consume audio and that might be a great album all that might be a streaming service but I think radio something that you can share or you can talk.

I normally that's a person involved in that might be a person who's picked all the songs or a person who does an interview or talks to someone I think that's what makes it different through it.

Just being an algorithm playlist nothing wrong with algorithmic.

Playlist.

I love another Christmas playlist with the same time.

I think radio is something a bit more and they can those places are keen to take the radio word, but I think maybe we should push back on that sometimes.

What about you Helen wife usually read what you're saying clever boy that Mr cridland.

I think it's a relationship and I think that's what makes it different from stream music you're sometimes in the mood for streamed music particularly if you choose it yourself, but actually there's a very deep in during human need for connection with other humans and that's what radio gives you does it matter that will most of us had stopped listening to Radio on actual physical radio sets, there's a huge audience that don't listen traditionally anymore and Femi NTS of tapped into that audience.

Spirit so so many studies of like that young kids not really listening to this or traditional to have FM for that.

I personally believe that if I'm format still gonna be here for a long long long time.

It's it's this before I drop in session this country via such a rich pirate radio history, but there's definitely a massive so shift to online radio platforms on how many people most of us not listening on radius.

We don't actually know that im in the point is in huge numbers of households people got four five six old fashioned radios the interesting thing is that what characterizes all of radio listening is the convenience of the platform and one of the problems for the young they want to listen live so bloody expensive it is you know when your mobile.

It's really expensive bill shock is a problem.

I can adjust a jumping on on consumption as well because also wearing a format here.

Yeah, you check the people who listening to this you've chosen to consume it and put it in your ears out which makes us full of slightly different.

Selecting group I mean we've got to remember is in broadcast radio and 90% of the country listen to some form of radio each week at 83% listen to some form of analogue radio Arman FM nearly 50% of the country listen to some form of DAB some broadcast radio 16% listen to the radio to the telly and 21% of those of the country listen to some form of internet radios live stream radio x through a cervical Rachel the measures all radio stations were the they they paid to be to be in it or not but reaches 1 things that someone who has just listen to 5 minutes within a week, but the thing that we've all got a look at it is time spent listening at how much time to people give to the different devices and so for the Internet that's just 8% of the time and even you look at young audiences.

So so 15 to 24 hours.

Yeah the volume consumed DAB radio to the broadcast platform does better than internet consumption.

And you were so get all that so surprised and it's up with that really surprised.

It's a device that's in half of people's homes and it's something that provides a big bulk about so I think it is easy like all technology to maybe or overestimate the short-term impact and then maybe underestimate the long-term impact of these things when I think one of radio success it is is it's got the most brilliant user interface you literally you turn it on and stuff comes out.

I won't be very lucky to have had that that box historic Lee and I think is we go forward onto internet platforms on mobile actually that starts to get a bit more complex music is probably alongside so like I don't know when something is probably most searched thing for on the internet and how do you stand out as a sort of radio platform? Have you to be up Spotify you have pizza.

So how do you keep Ali computer those guys and the conversation is harder on the internet, but then what we doing have the benefit under its been an online streaming platforms to sort global reach that we have.

Ask you this point.

Can you just give us a can of a nutshell of what NTS is because I I listen to it.

I love it is an online place to can see me music at how can you can contextualize it for a cell's what it is a protozoan to us was basically what is civil disorder traditional format to radio but weekend during the time when the DJ became solve the celebrity.

You know no one wanted to be musician anymore to DJ with a sword like god everyone wanted to be a DJ the so many DJs along and just wanted platform to get themselves out there.

They couldn't get Anna traditional sauce fmm form at the process to get the BBC what do you mind please of since leaving work try and sometimes.

I was trying to get henry into any of the other Surface tablet registration and and you know this contest was just keep these kids out of people just an opportunity to put their stuff out.

I'll tell get them graphic is a well done graphic Isis between the ages.

All I said was made $22.35.

Just as I call demographic and you know you know me you know we catered so like music from from the 1930s to sort of like Trap music to this day and you know we have it ready to be flexible because we don't really have the restrictions that you'd have with traditional radio format you know we don't you know we're not save money to buy Ofcom we do still have to pay the licensing for you, but we don't have the sort of like you know we don't have to sort of strict rules regulations and we still gives us a lot more freedom a lot and it has to be a lot more risky of what we do it.

Just kind of what has candlelit r6s.

I think Helen is there something coming from UK to overseas all of BBC Radio which is it it's an incredible time to BBC Radio at the moment.

I guess because you're doing some extraordinary things at the you send that you wouldn't probably do at the other room which I guess is Radio 4.

I'm running a bit late.

I mean radio no no no more Radio 1Xtra distance.

We never think we were just an audio service.

I mean they may listen to Lord of audio, but they expect film expect the Live Lounge to his.

Dreams text Becks still expect social media but actually that's been going on in Radio 1 4 5 6 7 years depending on how much money we've got frankly but that kind of extra but increasingly other audiences want selective kind of added extra so if you're Radio 2 audience you want red button you want very classy filming of that Elton John concert that you don't want the slightly less finished product that a lot of other younger people really don't mind Radio 3 even that audience and I say even because it tends to be quite conservative in some aspects, but some of the things they do they really want filmed and Radio 4 has done a lot of very very clever online cartoons pre-packed pre-programmed a lot of this is slightly testing out.

What's worth pursuing and what isn't because most of our audiences and I do think one of one extra slightly different.

It's the radio relationship that really matters the rest is different.

Terms of what you're saying about Ofcom and how you can be that much whiskey, I mean 1Xtra does ok, but we do have very clear rules and we get pulled up with them all the time and that is one of the benefits of your kind of operation and must be attractive to lots of listeners freedom that we have that can be said just let you know you don't you don't do playlists at all.

You know it's literally just someone coming on as passionate about whether music there in 2 where B is there.

You know want to talk about and they just having freedom to say I'd really like to live cos I started in commercial radio kind of also big up commercial radio in this country at the moment because at the moment the radio as a shame that in terms of Cher you know the proportions of people listening where abouts 50/50 commercial and the BBC after many years of the BBC being in the ascending and that is because I don't commercial radio have really got their act together on their branding.

Launched a lot of new services on the new DAB mux, is there called and they're doing them incredibly well, so both Power which is one of the big commercial radio companies and global are there audiences are strengthening almost on a daily basis and I think a lot of that town to distribution and historically this been quite a big barrier to entry to get on the radio it since seen it all to family about crying and internet station that can that can find an audience doing something different or Q3 1995 year if you didn't have an FM licence and there were many of them.

You couldn't have the radio station you can do anything for commercial radio and other than one FM network and 2 a.m.

Networks are classic FM on FM talk radio talkSPORT and then Virgin Radio UK just couldn't get on the dial and what digital and broadcast is to Radio be that to the telly or through a DAB radio to make the lot more people can launch more stations and so the big groups are always encumbered from doing.

And can take her a popular popular station like kiss which has only ever start keeping in London and can take that to audiences in Cumbria and Scotland and South Wales as well, and I think from former when we look at other radio stations in other markets and other countries and what we see is that your alien the UK is held up very very strongly because actually there's more choice for listeners and funny.

I wanted to pick up on something that you said about the way you program things on NTS you still have live shows so it's not just all about people listening again to Mix's you still engaged with with library.

Do it that is still has a place where we try to use technology as much as possible when we have a chat live chat rooms top of that was real to do videos with stream.

Some of our shows I feel passionate about the radio should be radio in the sense that people shouldn't have tuna Sony c radio for me.

What radio is really about it being able to use my imagination listen to what was being said.

Are we talking about the the way radio is changing at the way people are consuming radio changing way audiences are changing Miranda who is a massive podcast consumer.

I feel like this is where you need to come in and just and ID really talk to spell podcast in because podcast of change the audio landscape if they've been going for a long time.

There are people has been around for ages, but really in the last couple of years.

There's been an explosion and and it's starting to have an impact on the way we can see me the way we listen.

Yeah, it says to me podcast because I think actually physically type of person that likes podcast and they actually remind me that younger person of Tbilisi like indie bands and indie brands.

So you might have kind of a fan of American podcasts and a particular style a podcast and they will go to live versions of those podcasts whether that's the moth although that slightly older or kind of a drama style podcast or a comedy podcast and they will dress up.

In a certain way, they will bring knitted toys.

They really reminds me of indie bands and there's something about that that I found quite interesting as I think that amongst older people and I can't myself as an older person that pocket a slightly replace listen to music so that if you have on your phone.

It's a lot to do with accessibility so you know most a lot of got iPhones or or do you know that the equivalent another place? We can just hit and you get a podcast and because weirdly if you haven't I For Whom the music section is really hard.

It's did it just doesn't work very well and the podcast fiction works really well, so if you're kind of driving or you want to go for a run or you're on the Tube actually older people who get irritated with the way that iTunes work or Spotify by well.

Just go to podcasts and I find that this that those kind of podcast a slightly different from the ones.

I talk about indie bands which I Tend To Be comedy or drama or something slightly offbeat those podcast.

Jude actually by people who might have been a Radio 4 listen about actually equally might be a Radio 6 music listener.

It's that kind of person and don't forget the six music listen.

It is almost always a really little radio the Radio 3 consumer is so there's that yearning that curiosity amongst about 10 to 12 million people probably for a lot of interesting audio experience as I love your analogy with the indie band.

I think that's absolutely right, but I certainly know my own and I'm certainly the oldest person round the table my own consumption the podcasts at you.

I go through phases of being completely obsessed with them and then suddenly.

They will sound the same particularly the American and that's a rough beat humour which something great and you go back to Melvin Bradford relief units that kind of thing but it's great because I am probably probably listening to as much as not more as I've ever done.

I think one of the big changes foot for podcasts has been consumption of speech radio by people who traditionally wouldn't have.

Or have just done it a little bit earlier.

So I think absolutely getting older people always started to consume more speak so I think that's probably gone earlier over 10 years and broad now.

Maybe two people who have never really been exposed to to Radio 4 and I can Sully find something that that touches them and talks to them and that can intimacy you get with pockets as I've series radio generally a minute and I'll realise it's a bit of a cliche but the ideas you walking to the kitchen you press the button listen to the radio and that's not the same with podcast that you can choose to listen and so because of that you tend to E10 to listen to not always spoke with headphones on is a different style to it and there's an intimacy not so there's a big Battlelog in over the most popular podcast so you know you feel like you know the person is presenting it or where they've been going or you feel very close to the presenters and I know that you can do with radio but sometimes some types of Radio news radio.

I think more than anything you feel like you're broadcast at rather than invited in and it's a slightly different way of listening.

A relationship to do give it to you the thing about them bunking up there you'll end up feeling slightly panicked.

It's like a tsunami about how do I delete delete delete that you do you think Helen that in the future.

We might see a BBC commissioner of podcast completely possible completely possible although in general with going to fewer people not more people have different roles and you know it's interesting how overtime would become more confident about this 5 Live is particularly good at this the little extras that actually make the podcast feel different.

I mean the bit of to talk about Melvin you know where they chat at the end of the program which we know our consumers absolutely love they love that sense of the intimate listening in and there's lots of small things you can do like that ok.

Wonderful only wants to ask you about audiences about who specifically is listening to NTS and how they listening and Matt are bring you in here as well because I know that you've written quite a lot about people listening on mobile and how radio.

There's a bit of a mixed relationship there, it's not quite working but for me that start with you.

Look quite young Vic what's a wide range of myself so I first started and love people who started grand same age as me and you know before so grown up together.

Play the same sort of music song monster listeners use listening on their phones and so you know everything we do is the signed out for me too far for the website is designed to work well on phones.

So it's as convenient as possible.

I'm going out yet, but it's something working on just to make it as convenient as possible for a listen to use Wiimote mod on Instagram and Snapchat reuse old socials Facebook they don't actually use Facebook as much anymore because their parents or on Facebook so they just want.

Most of our staff in BS14 full-time people working at and t s n o Sean is my business partner and I are the oldest people in there.

Everyone else is between the age of light 20 and 26.

So it'll dates in pain or what's happening in the face of help to sew Direct the station now and that brings this neatly onto new platforms in a way because I think that one thing that an interest as brilliantly as teams up with brands the kind of the it's it's a bit of it.

It is becoming less of an evil word these days.

Cos brands are actually enabling lots of Fantastic then I'm really well.

We've intelligently with Brown boys like you know we had this conversation quite a lot because I'm coming generation with brands with the cost of Generation X Y I've been reading all these things are well.

I generation with brands with Stihl saw work with brands are still found on you know but the kids are these days with new-generation kids coming up if you're not working for brand you're not sick.

Do you know they see where can we talk about themselves as a friend you know so it's it's how you play that way you're not completely you know plastered by one brand.

You know the relationship and we have with brands.

We have it sorted.

It's normally very sore.

It's you.

Don't we don't do paid for advertising and radio station, so there's still one baby.

So make this was one form of revenue for a second event of a brand of juice or some kind of broadcast of a brand one thing that and we we can't really ignore.

What is the fact that there is a there is a lot of content out them in NCIS has a very committed audience me people love their BBC shows are people love their podcast at their very passionate about but discoverability is is one of these words that we first need to explain that I think first of all and second of all maybe look at the ways that the BBC is starting to give people the content that they want when they log in to iPlayer and he's kind of things and and delivering that content when ending in end engaging the audiences.

And getting bigger audiences then for the content as a result so we got his new platforms allow infinite content at infinite quality some amazing some bless amazing but try to find that and trying to to be connected to the things that you care about becomes much harder and then a broadcast world where everyone consumed BBC One Radio 2 in London Capital FM whatever it might be it was very easy to tell people where things were and what they could consume their gets more difficult now and I think even through existing existing broadcasters.

I think we often forget that we were just lucky about the platforms that we were on rather than our content being super amazing that being the reason why people tuned in and what you see often in some some research looking at radio stations around the world mobile streaming of those stations is a bit flat.

So you would expect it to be in sub accelerated growth cause everyone's I've got one and got your 3G

Georgina di final all the stuff but you know what I said mobile device is a very entertaining device that can get you a lot of other things without YouTube or games audio the world.

Is it is it in that place? I know a lot of radio stations have worked excellent his background and when you see if they're actually for podcasts which a little bit more for grounds are people have chosen to to consumers Miranda with saying and even with so interactive radio Services so in America as a service called Pandora which is there a radio like a radio station in you thumb up and down the songs and it gets better at creating something for you.

That's a bit more interactive the listening to a stream of a station that you used to it does a different job you were engaged in a different way Sophie existing broadcasters.

I think they have to probably think slightly differently and not just creating one products.

We hope everyone gets but trying to find something that's a bit more focused individual.

I think the BBC in her having may be slightly panicked about forecast got better, so what you

But you know what the BBC.

Radio 4 in the world service at they're really good at documentaries and that can be like a series or just a one-off and you know I use to find incredibly frustrating cos it'd be something it was really Britannica disappear in 14 days 7 Days 28 days and what they've become better at is finding it was just reading your web page when everything is on.

So they got the seriously Strand and so that's that's where you can find interesting documentaries ill leave now gathered all the music documentaries together which I'm incredibly excited about because there's loads that you missed without even meaning to and I just think actually quite often.

It's literally that is putting everything together and offering out before then.

That's not just the BBC it's if you are part of a kind of podcast group like have your part of radiotopia or other groups of Spring up that I just saying you know what podcast is quite lonely and it's only you and you're putting it out there maybe for your joined together then said some fans of this show will also like your show and that's that's the way of doing because otherwise it can seem it's a big world out there.

Everyone's making podcast post cereal so like you have to negotiate through.

Don't you mean? I find actually as a radio reviewer that you know you can't help it.

You have a certain tastes and he want I want to broaden my taste so quite off my disco.

Will use social media just to say what are you listening to what is good? What have I missed? Because you can make things so easily and if you just go on Twitter and say I'm bored of my taste.

What shall I listen to People will help and that I find that really useful she will Helen Amy watch like and share right.

That's what it's all about.

This is a massive challenge like the BBC Radio much when ice controller Radio 4.

I use to get loads of letters from people saying you never tell us how many wonderful things and where to find them and then they get the same people saying and you do all those terrible trails which was our effect and held them but actually technology will rescue us on this because we're doing a big project which I am the executor sponsor of called my BBC which is basically a series of digital tools so if you love our sports app It solo.

You to get an incredible granular level of detail on the things you love and equally it will allow you to do that in terms of radio programs or telly programmes but to your point about getting bored with your own taste.

I'm very adverse to the idea that you sent me go on offering people things that they already have you had a life is really bad.

It's really un recien I have to be so one of the things about our personalization is it will work quite hard to a few things that aren't necessarily your natural taste good serendipity is an incredibly important part of the way the human being engages with the world.

Are we all love it when it works, but it doesn't work.

We just think that was a bad idea at all.

So you don't want to end up with that thing.

It's a big problem on Facebook and Ernie also to me did everyone you just listening to yourself all the time and then everybody surprised when you know the different person gets in in the election or you can't understand why this is hell because nobody is talking to each other the song instruments capital Xtra been doing on on their mobile app, so she what are the problems for 4 live radio is that you can't skip things.

Don't like to sort of at the mercy of devastation, but they actually introduced to sort of equivalent the skip button on their app and if you don't like a song you can get it another song and what it's meant is have changed how they make the radio station kiss the presenters of started tagging songs with bespoke links and also being allowed to do more speech content cos they get them sometimes told off in commercial radio for talking too much.

Where is this is something that the user is shown and then making cheese listen to or skip and also that inflation goes back to the station.

So that they can improve and in the States come NPR which is very vaguely equivalent to some of the content of the BBC makes Forfar radio over there and they were great Atwood npo 1 and again.

What that does is it learns it learns from from? How can she music and the best thing I was talking to someone they said was that is improve the queues the words that you used to introduce a feature because if people are skipping halfway through the cube and means when was intriguing introduction.

And that's gone back into making their radio stations better more from the panel in just a moment but first let's hear a clip from this week's Media Masters with Paul Blanchard and this week's poll is speaking to the political journalist Daniel Finkelstein the Daily Mail Hadlow pop-up the fact that I done this work with doby camera on these types and I'm very proud of it was my idea to do them.

You'll probably when everything else.

I've done in journalism has gone will still have historically hopefully for decades.

Maybe was centuries this political record of the other promises never been done before and that's all.

I thought that was a very valuable thing but the daily mails criticism was that I went on Newsnight and pretended to no no more than anyone else about what the Prime Minister was thinking what I hope.

I wasn't doing that because I want to buy Newsnight will have me on if I did that I hope that I was pretending to know you know where.

about what the from something I think that point was to actually be critical of that they thought that I should actually no less than I did it seems like a very old criticism you can hear all of that interview by going to media Masters.

FM potential by definition is the possibility of achieving more in the fast-paced world of digital advertising Oracle data cloud has built it's like I say I'm finding the signal through the noise on unlocking potential we bring together data and technology to help you better understand your audience where to best engage them and how to measure a tool to realise true potential Oracle data cloud where better outcomes begin visit Oracle data cloud., to learn more Miranda at all the Tech companies that seems to be getting into the radio game Apple Google and Amazon

I guess you can see this in one of two ways you can see that you know it's kind of sinister because we're all signed up.

They have all our information.

They're going to just be feeding us what they think we want or is this a really exciting opportunity for original content makers if you'd have something upbeats one.

I mean you could you would I don't know what I expected from beats on but it wasn't actually beach ones and it's good, but it's not what I thought so I thought that Apple I'm in Apple of his he is quite it has Mrs aspirational.

It's can a closed you can never in a alter anything on your apple and your Apple Mac or anything like that, but it's essentially specialist content and you know they use words Kuwait or they use the words you know influences all those kind of terrible words with essentially there are some really good radio shows their wish I wasn't really expecting however having said that I don't think it's actually an immensely successful.

You know it's nobody really listens.

I quite like it.

There's a couple of shows that I follow, but it isn't as strong as you thought it might be with Apple

And I think that that's because you're not used to it happens to all massive companies.

They think they can do everything and you can we see it.

We seen it time and time again over in history and that's fine.

I don't mind you know I have a go but actually you probably won't be as good as you think and something this is a thing I really like about human beings in general something else will come out that you never thought so you think that you're going to make this amazing radio station to be like you know you know it's going to take over the world and actually you'll find it.

Just a few documentaries about crime work really well, so you go along that way and those things are the things that I love about humans because you can offer all the content you want if nobody likes it has to go away Justin reference to the Apple fingerprint beats 1 first came out as I expected I was a bit like it.

I was like this is this is apples is gonna be pretty bad but but I mean is the other products are good, but I just know what they're trying to do what they wanted to do with Pete I just I don't know they couldn't see how was going to work, but then I listen.

Put a few times as I actually pretty good in the way from what we do it kind of legitimizes what we did in the sense that is this is one of the biggest of biggest company in the world.

It's this piss yourself an online radio station at the same time and we've been doing this for 5 years.

He not there because taking a baseketball apple trying to do is just go in heavily into the music cider things.

I'll speak to someone the other day who is prunella who's knows that world lot better than I and he's like the next step potentially is to get cars and how they gonna get to Coulsdon get a car to know the manufacturer to build their cars and they just deal with the sword electronic side of it at the texts over the with the source audio side of things on a car you know so it's a sort of like did they going to keep trying so many different avenues until they get it right its interests as well isn't because the audience that they get I imagine they would regard them as I don't know what the the kind of categories are but it's quite high end.

You know those of people that you if you want to hit them with.

Adverts you know that's really great and I think sometimes with podcast I find it quite interesting is essentially if you get the right podcast you are hitting all the places that be the BBC Radio 4 hypno adverts on the BBC and there's all these brands are desperate to get at these people on the podcast sore or will will always offer that you know I know about squarespace.

I never knew about west west west west Dominic's my life now because I've heard about it so many times and podcast you know and those those places which is essentially you can't get out in Britain because it is dominated by the BBC new advert you can get through through in a something like apple or or Spotify all those to the fact that audible I going to be clear content SoundCloud going to be interestingly you see one of the key strength of the BBC Formula audience research is a lack of adversity and particularly that Radio 4 audience who don't like them an interview hear the quality of most radio adverts.

It's not surprising is not just that the reason they don't like it, but when I started in Commercial local radio got huge funders for it.

But the adverts don't seem to have changed much since then and that was a long while ago.

We can take that risk of the internet.

We don't have the same car commercial radio station from from the from the first and it was I'd really like to know where is not had to have it like that with the whole thing comes in two places to new ways of doing things that you don't have to do the traditional format way and when we speak to look a bit late, but how do you make any money you don't do any you don't do any money.

I am not well.

There's more subtle ways you can work for bread without them sort of screaming at you like every 15mins arguably there are brands have done more for electronic music and dance music over the last couple of years than than other more traditional platforms and if you look at Brands like Red Bull even Smirnoff of God in on the game and actually are creating really great original content around these supposedly niche scenes.

They're not really that are they only they've got huge audiences which is why they tapping into the Unity

The Red Bull music academy is is incredible things I can be cynical but you can some people you can be cynical about it be like it is still selling cans of Redbull but they are actually giving us an opportunity to get the work out an is Legacy things then they just don't put them out there.

She's full of them through the whole process it and as you know.

I think a lot brands and sort of seen that and be like ok people respond better to that you know people don't really found on red.

Could you find a ribbon on a bit funny about academies in a maze so many people have been through it and it's made such a difference a lot of the difference between, integrations and where content is part of your DNA vs.

Running campaigns and I think if you look at something like Red Bull this is a long-term project and it's not a 3 month so we can align ourselves with X and Y E King sing with McDonald's around an entertainment YouTube channel, I think all dust I would have just closed and unsurprisingly and it's because you know creating.

Sent is not in their DNA they are excellent for those of fast food, but trying to but but trying to inhibit in habitat world's very difficult the next great content providers, then we don't know that's that's the bit.

I think fits in most of the metrics people probably said that beach one has been unsuccessful.

Yeah that from the data that we see it is not generated listenership.

That would compare to any traditional radio service many of the markets they operate however that's not to say it hasn't done a good job for Apple of selling apple music subscriptions or to allow for PR each time.

They do something special and when they do something special on the apple music side bit of things with Drake or Frank Ocean they doing really well interestingly and different and that's content yeah.

That is all content.

You don't need to be a linear stream radio station.

I think whether perhaps gone slightly wrong is they've made some assumptions about what radio is where is people who have maybe?

Radio stations for a number of years pubs understand listener behaviour a bit more, but it's not to say they won't be successful at content in a different way and say you've already mentioned the c word which is cars and I want to ask Helen and me how how important the kitchen and car is still to the BBC Two BBC Radio 2 BBC the radio industry as a whole and million cars don't have DAB radio to your point about FM really matter is a lots of new cars coming in with DAB radio.

It's about 30% of our listening.

I think 25 to 30% of our listening and that's the radio industry says massively important the thing that really interests me is the driverless car which is coming down the road.

Sorry about the pun, but it is coming probably fast and we think and at that point.

I think it's a massive challenge Friday because if you can watch rather than Lucifer continue to listen because I'll always have done over a video.

An awful lot of Dibley the young will just not see the point and that has been a really important part of how people have consumed it's it's a challenge for the BBC for commercial radius and mass of Talent and it going to be what how you doing that it's very difficult in the right places on on the right platforms.

We run a children's radio station called from kids and I it's it's ready to go all the kids.

Don't listen to the radio and it's like what I call them earlier than listen to us, so that they do and they do and anyone cuz if you provide content for them and that can be for different demographic groups.

We happened to concentrate on kids that our audience has an expectation that if they hear an interview on are all they see a silly thing that presented as there is an assumption.

It'll be on the Apple on YouTube and it's our job search the content teams job to make sure that whatever we have we have it in as many places as possible.

I think radios been lucky to own the car for 70 years.

And we didn't we didn't you know we were just lucky and hey guess what the world changes and a new things are going to be in those places.

It's not interested.

I think sometimes about radio because the car because naturally nowadays.

I think if you don't like what's on the telly.

What do you do? You know you are your kids watching something it all.

They're playing FIFA or whatever you do something else and there's something about the democracy of making people listen to the car that I work quite like I did not say parents, but also my kids make me listen to stuff.

So they're upset with kiss this which is not my natural habitat discovered.

Play the same songs over and over but I don't mind it and actually I'm very happy with Kisstory because you know when old Rover so as soon as we have a kind of cat Kisstory out.

I'm really happy and so there are ways of them.

You'll know within the car.

I find the old fashioned ways quite interesting because it's still imposes on kids.

You know what you'll find in the Ender City put on their own headphones and ignore you but I really like making them listen to stuff.

Body in car but also in office, you know the station that we can all agree on headphones and more online services probably distracted from their bit but when we get feedback from other kids from from parents some emails or like I hate from kids but at least it's not listening to that same playlist all that same year did it we are we are the least worst option for them.

I'm happy to accept proudly so can I also have an issue? I think with this idea that when driving as come card come and people will default to watching something actually think that smell feel sick.

I'm a notice of default.

I just think that assumption we have owned the car for 70 years and that will be here and and I love that thing about how you get it imposed on you when we know that in both directions.

Yeah, it's been an education.

I think that will change I mean I think you don't literally even 3 years ago.

We would have thought driverless cars was an absurdist fiction film something really isn't there gonna be fleets of lorry is going down on a motorway.

Not having a while you can not have it but technology always complains that sell your expectations.

We may discover that actually people don't want to watch that you still considering the kind of stats become are coming out of America about people who listen to podcasts.

I do think we might be surprised so much American radio isn't very good which is why they listen to podcast we have fabulous radio in this country mint radio to the biggest radio station in Europe 15 million listeners a week devoted an audience the c2de audience as they say witch the BBC doesn't sound very hard to get to those people not listening to podcasts.

I listen to library and most radio listening in this country is life.

So they carry on listening to Radio in the UK US things into her thinks the same four year strong public service broadcasters like the BBC keeps commercial radio much more honest than it does in lots of markets in America the things that been successful at subscription radio so if you basically say that commercial pop radio.

In America has a lot of ads and isn't very good so 7 million people have subscribed to XM Sirius and then Pandora and on-demand service on mobiles has been successful because radio has done a bad job.

Where is here? I think that's because of digital radio station growth has been significant so a six music listen here in the UK is pretty well catered for a great service in America that never happened to course they went off to Pandora or or Sirius XM oracle joke 3 years ago.

What what do you think could be the thing with thing in 3 years time? We will surprise by I think such as I think you better as you know you can if you think about pirate radio which you know I do and and I kind of Mourne it a bit there's an aspect to old radio that that I enjoy.

In the Aspect was just chilling a dial and you come across pirate radio stations you come across all sorts of things and that is changing and has changed and has to change and and I wonder sometimes about those aspects you know that there is no there's an illegal 82 pirate radio that was actually really exciting and that was the point of it and the same to do with discovering.

That's changing bit because everything is quite safe now and legitimize.

I wonder about the kind of slightly more offbeat things were aware that how that's going to come through how the how those things will manifest himself 80s wake us up PlayStation 4 like you delete me again.

You know we we we we cater to some listeners all over the world week 8 scan listener.

So so so many different tastes in the oven or meet me to do the offbeat stuff.

Oswells do this or commercial pop stuff as well the same time because you know they just we had that freedom to be able to do that we don't hurt me.

Don't we don't necessarily have the sore commercial restraints that you know that would allow defector so big commercial broadcaster, because they don't know there's play Sian playlist attracts cos they know that's what people listen to it, and that's what we're doing for the only instrument to the us as well.

You know it's do they wear in the process of setting up student in Sainsburys doesn't have a registration like in Cos you know you have a day.

They have to sort that plays hiphop 24/7.

They have they have KCRW which is more concentrated? What make is Willie strongest College radio the college rated Mrs Khan what inspired the station as well the same time does the gynaecology? I don't think there's a really have that sort of restraint that the commercial radios have isn't clear channel.

All these are the things that I can talk to what we went and saw you know that I feel you know going ahead stations.in Tiesto love myself online radio platforms offer the opportunity to try.

Go to solve have that weird and random stuff Boswells soft KT20 people want to listen to something you know there's a way both worlds me to discover new things as well about you know each other's music on this amazing loafer massive tech companies that come along and try to buy you or have they have had a few problems this search more major labels is really interesting but not really but you know it it will be have there's a plan with NTS so there's no there's no rush for anything like that.

We talk about technology is also making radio radio discoverable so in voice activated things seem very hot at the moment, but that Siri or the Amazon echo or devices like that at Harold away is the radio industry and be that old fashioned stations all new station's like NTS how do we put ourselves in a place where we can benefit from that so there in the UK the industry BBC and commercial.

Trade-It what's together on Radioplayer a nice out and it's at power tool of a pop-up players so they're on Amazon Echo so in their office.

They have worked out how to vanetta size all of our station names ever recorded it all in they've done old versions of station names and things like that so that when someone goes Alexa play me radio 2 on Radioplayer it will just work come on.

I say hey play me Chris Moyles it will know it's on radio x no sorts of things.

I think we Gotta work harder to make sure we can be discoverable because in the past we were again.

We were lucky with where we were on it which is an excellent point when we talk about the archive really I mean that's why I know this this idea that the British Library will hit record at some point next year and start to record across all these channels.

What should go into the archive.

What has value is what is popular.

Does is that what has value? Is it? Is it mean if you decided to tough job for the British Library but I'm going to just throw that out to you guys telling you go first.

Well, I'm not in a rush library needs to work out what it's using the archive for before I can answer these questions and the most popular isn't necessarily where you start although the most popular does tell you something about musical taste or tastes in other ways at that particular moment the thing I would be most worried about is that we become obsessed with niche and technological change and ignore these huge stations delivering fantastic radio Radio 2 and commercial case that millions of people in this country.

Love every single day.

There's a sword of ordinary person thing that matters because in a way radio has always reflected the world that we live in at that moment.

So when we had those cheesy DJs that was what life was like for a certain.

It's very interesting to me that I think both Radio 3 on Radio 4.

We should going great guns at the moment have moved modestly and without shouting about it up market in terms of the intellectual fibre of what they do they have got rid of the great pleasures.

That's what they're doing and that's working b.

There's an audience that actually isn't intensely curious and wants more so you might want to reflect that equally if you want to understand what the real conversation is in the UK you need to go to your commercial and BBC local radio phone ins and also do you think you said are you looking to the Future or you registering something that might be dying so I mean if you think about you know I recently wrote an article about late night phone in tonight do worry a little at those things are going to die so in which case you do you can make sure you've got those because they might go away or do you look to the future? And think we must have beats 1 on there because you know that's around because it didn't it to me that doesn't seem like proper radio.

So it's it's a bit like it whatever you're doing.

You're always skewed by what does your attitude towards that so is your attitude towards like this is happening now and we need to record.

It is it will look into the future, or is it? We're looking to the past or are we just doing what you just do it across the day or you? Are you looking at things I Crescent

Onts they are actually becoming their own brand anyway or ah that's very hard work as a bit about non-uk consumption of non-uk stuff.

So you look at the top 100 podcast chart and Marc Maron appear in there or the podcast from the s word of try not always give an example and actually for big number of UK listeners consumer that I think my house value also I mean LBC Wallasey going rate at the moment.

I need to talk and they sell station and over the years has come and gone up and down in different ways to do is Easter incredible moment.

I'm not a big LBC listener, but I did listen to it over the brexit time because I was just interested in what they were saying what listeners how they were responding.

It was a great bit of social commentary on on the point isn't it does the British Library want this to tell us about who we are at this moment and who we are in a very multi-layered Wayne

Just London not just ethnicity.

I just joined in 30 years time looking back at the moment in time for on from all aspects the music the social context of wooden a big stories that we cover a research.

I just me new stories.

I mean the emotional stories immigration is clearly one and that was the same that was so powerful doing the brexit Debate but equally you know if you listen to a lot of BBC local radio and older demographic and I did a couple of Summers ago the huge amount of emphasis on cost of living has massive amount of stuff around being charged for your car parking in hospital as I'm in hospital, how to make a profit from this but you would have thought they were really angered people so it's there were lots of ways of understanding this country through that's local radio stuff what you're saying then.

Is is it about the content or is it about the media but we don't really know what they want to do.

I'm called that semi have your say again.

What exactly they trying to solve? What do they really want from these are closed in from my perspective? I guessed the shift from FM to sort digital internet is interesting thing to watch you know like watching just you know see no blood using mobile to listen.

You know you know the median using to listen to radio with I think could be an interesting thing to look back on because like you said you know what's the new technology call finger's going to happen in the next 1020 years ago.

This is Webbs of looking.

What's happening now.

It's going on from there to pick you one of them really.

I like you already know if it's ok Proust it's going to be there.

Don't worry about it and so but that's fine in the olden days is really hard now.

It's because there is so much stuff, so the editing process is really difficult a min fire with them all.

So I would just say ok and I do one day and get everything on Monday that absolutely of the but then what if it's a Monday and your shows on a Wednesday I will be really bad lost lost of the world.

It is genuinely a Conundrum I'm glad it's them and not at us.

What's particular things, then each of you put something into the radio archive Helens.

Stumped deep in thought yeah, I suppose I do the Today programme after brexit that I put Rickie Melvin and Charlie from the KISS Breakfast Show in you know.

It's hard to do a certain group of people.

It's reflected trying to reflect young people's lives yet on that day.

What are they talking about? What what was it interest what bubbled up to the top? So I know I've put those three input certain stations in including residential and TSB I would actually put prison radio in because I've listened to it and I'm not allowed.

There is a way to write a feature about it looks how im getting a bit leave you now generally Brixton Prison round the corner from your can't hear any of it can't you look outside because that's what I want in there, so I can research after a lovely come on family.

What is a few years ago.

Which is like play some Mike next to Upton volcano broadcast that's really amazing.

ASDA stromboli in Italy somebody bathroom sink as we move from great events big massive significant events like the vote on brexit to tiny, but incredibly interesting world's like the prison and that's what radio can do in a way that I don't think anything else can be in in a kind of compelling story to use the overhang cliched word intimate wear that is going to be the real challenge for the British Library because they will want to catch all of that Innocence good luck good luck that I think that's a wonderful friend on.

Thank you so much for joining us to talk about the future of radio well tackle.

Thank you Ruth Barnes that's it for this week.

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