Read this: BONUS: How To Fix... Newspapers

Hello and welcome to this bonus edition of the media podcast something a little special for you this week.

There's any podcast in town.

It's called how to fix the show attempt to fix an issue that politicians are economists or business leaders have struggled to solve and in this week's episode they attempt to fix the newspaper industry which we thought may be of interest to you Media Potters so we going to play it in full thanks for the kind people at prospect magazine who make that podcast if you want to subscribe and hear more episodes of it and go to Prospect magazine.co.uk / how to fix and now without further ado here's presenter Steve Bloomfield on how to fix newspapers.

Hello my name is Steve Bloomfield and this is how to fix the new Weekly podcast from prospective.

How many tries ethics are the countries and the world's most pressing problems this week how to fix newspapers have two choices you think.

Do I just do something that is diminished and doesn't try to embrace everything that newspapers wants where do I find me two different way to do that newspapers are in crisis in fact they've been in Crisis for a decade and a half sales are down advertising is down jobs have been cut independent shut down at Sprint operation the Guardian is losing tens of millions of pounds a year the Telegraph is a shadow of his former self and that's before we even begin to look at the Dire situation in the regional and local press that doesn't have been forced to close down in a moment.

I'll be joined by Lisa markwell the last ever editor of The Independent on Sunday by Andrea split the editor-in-chief of handelsblatt global in Germany and because we need someone to explain why newspapers don't matter anymore Jim Waterson there's a set of processes.

The first as ever his prospects Stephanie Boland to explain how he got in this mess in the first place hello Steph hi Steve ok newspapers atopic close to both that hearts.

How have we got where we are right now? It's a mess of newspapers is so big.

It's difficult to even figure out where you start with this, but let's try.

Let's try so right from the very start will certainly right from the beginning of the 20th century newspapers of being in the slightly awkward position and then they're operating somewhere between being a business and being a public service and in some ways those things have always been intention and what you basically have is the public service aspects stopping them big and effective business model and the public space and it being ruined by the way is there trying to reach audiences through fun opinion grabbing your attention rather than giving you the straight news is there is there other issue, which we didn't about the start which is trust the public trust in newspapers Has Fallen

Through the floor and not just tabloids which me over if you look at Paul's 20 years ago the tabloid reporter wasn't very well trusted but now it's broadsheets its mainstream news doesn't have the same cache as it did before it's completely true and I think we really sore this during the June General Election analysis by BuzzFeed which team will hopefully talk to us a bit about later showed that so many of the most shared articles online during the election within the highly parties and news sites, which have sprung up to fill this need for reporting that people feel isn't part of as they call it in over the right wink mainstream Media MSM which we both obviously key members card carrying member for the past 15 years, but more seriously there is a problem with trust in the broadsheets and part of that goes back a long way, but a flash point.

I think was the Leveson Enquiry so that was on the whole mainly about tabloid newspapers, but I think so many of the newspapers as well.

We've got to think I owned by the sea.

People now so News UK which was at the heart of the whole thing also own the times you have the Telegraph Media group which is seen as very right wing and more traditionally left wing organisations like the Independent witches ostensibly independent but in practice if you look at its online offering now kind of schools within the spectrum of British political newspaper certainly to the left has gone out of print and of course the big thing as well has been the internet.

I mean it seems such an obvious point to say that this is complicated newspaper publishing but I think in terms of figuring out what a good online model is for news everyone still mostly at a lost.

So just within the British context.

You have places like the Telegraph which has some of its items free some of its so-called premium content which is kind of comment pieces analysis behind a paywall you have the times and the Sunday Times issue, entirely behind a paywall and then you have places like.

Guardian which are in front of a paywall and rely on trust that owns them and on people to be willing to contribute freely for their journalism and I think of big problem is advertising revenue your newspapers have always relied on advertising revenue.

Would it cost to produce a newspaper can't be met by readers paying for it? I just can't and never has the times when it started 100 years ago is entire front page was classified adverts to advertise.

It's always been part of it and to go back this with the internet the internet has taken away advertising jobs on advertised in newspapers any more cars on Advertiser newspaper in more houses on the whole on advertising newspapers anymore these were huge huge areas the provided revenue to newspapers and it will just gone was quite interesting on the same know is that advertising is always had quite a difficult relationship to newspapers and I think you're right.

It's been exacerbated by the internet but when you

Go back to say the late 19th Century you see accusations of people going on newspapers are becoming very salacious and you know writing his bold leading headlines to try and get your eyes on the on the advertisement if you go on the internet now, you know we talk about clickbaiting.

You know five top tricks for a flat stomach in the House of Commons or whatever they should be some writing today.

If they do really well on our website go to our show notes in read Steve's but this idea of just trying to get the sheer number of eyeballs on goes back to this idea of the business model vs.

The public service where advertising goes from here.

I don't know it does feel like the bottom is just fallen out of the market this so-called pivot to video which I think is laying off every journalist in the US it seems like everyone is pivoting to video as they call it was based seems to mean sack everyone and putting up 2 minute videos that no one really wants to watch working in some limited way so I think vice.

the relatively good line in their video content although they're both to be sacked a lot of good journalists in in order to do it places like Mike which is a very left wing outlet in America which actually was getting audiences as also sacked lot of Genesis in the pivot to video so that are people who are producing good video content as you say there, is it what people want to watch don't understand the people that is supposed Liang that millennials group that I'm just outside of I'm led to believe I could like yourself Steph who are firmly in it that you are just as interested in Reading a long 4000 piece about frager or North Korea or whatever as someone who is not a millennial age partially because so often we reading news on our phones on the Tube or at our desks at work where you can't play a video and actually some of the website to begin this pivot to video so Fox News

Has a service called Fox Sports and you'd think Sports News would be an ideal platform for making you enter video and and after they undertook their pivot to video they lost a staggering amount of their web traffic finally before you move on.

Let's just talk briefly about paywalls and before you do this word paywall.

I don't understand it it it's such an exclusionary word is essentially saying don't come in here.

I think that's how a lot of readers.

See it and this comes back to their that tension between the business and the public service in that a lot of readers.

I think field news and comment should be accessible and so when you come across something on the internet that asks you to sign up in order to read it instantly people who turned off.

This is a real problem so the times and the Sunday Times have a relatively successful payroll model and if you've not been on their website you get two or three paragraphs of a story.

But visits to the Times website have decreased by 87% since the payroll was introduced.

So they went from 21 million unique users per month which is a great number to 2.7 million, but the Times is working the Times is a viable business is one of the few that seems to still with make it a little bit of money and they are managing to get those subscribers in so I think this figure is now out of date, but as of October 2011 which wasn't too long after they launch their pay will they already had over 100000 subscribers? I think I don't have one with the idea of pirates all cos I think people should pay for journalism.

I've got a prom with the word.

I just think it's yeah, if you go to the theatre.

You don't pay to go through the paywall you buy tickets there must be a better word.

I don't want it is my will come up with a before the end of sure.

I hope we can I mean this is what they were Telegraph of tried to do with premium but anyway so to recap there a play walls not work.

Which is sort of work in some cases, but not working in another's pivot to video bad advertising down clickbait bad trust in journalism people reading broadsheet anymore are there any so there were problems but don't worry we have people who go be joining us who have Solutions Stephanie Boland for now.

Thank you very much.

There is a country where they still read newspapers Germany and yes, we are aware that we keep on going back to Germany but you know they do do something quite well and rescued is the editor-in-chief of handelsblatt global the English language version of the daily newspaper handelsblatt before that he was the Berlin Bureau chief of The Economist so he knows a thing or two about the British situation to and he joins us now from Berlin address.

Thank you very much for joining us today and is the German newspaper industry.

In better health than the UK's I put in my opinion over served and it is also stagnated vote circulation and print advertising revenue but one big difference is just how many papers there still are I mean is there a type of that Germans are a nation of readers button in Bucksburn since.

He books have taken off this year than paper books and book stores are different as an entire culture and even some regulations and if you go into cafe in Chorley there are lots of these old fashioned paper newspapers hanging there and people sitting on there, but he's in and actually reading them, so there's that but they're not doing well and there are too many of these newspapers before we get onto the problems the industry has why do you think there is still this this love and affection for prints in Germany

The book in the newspaper market in the book market even supported by regulations that said the Germans view themselves like austrians and probably other Central European sizes and there is an appreciation for that in the especially the older Generations animanga middle-aged mother young people already is totally different in their gonna go online first and stay there just like young people anywhere else you work for The Economist for 20 years.

You know the British industry very well indeed, what advice would you have for your British colleagues? It would be similarly comparing the UK press and the German press you give you a few numbers for this journey is the most populous country in Europe however.

It has seven national newspapers which is a lot has republication has 20 weeklies and has seven Sunday newspapers in now get ready for the next one.

That's really.

Inception it has 330 local and regional newspapers in one huge difference for the industry as a whole because I lived in America do the the the tunnel collapse when craigslist came along and other regional newspapers first and what survived were a couple of early couple of national brand but in Germany the regions of the small towns with strong regional roots beetroot.

They're doing fantastically well.

They're making loads of money.

They're still getting all the regions of the council of community centres almost for that little village town or region and so those are the economically strongest newspapers and the ones where I'm expecting a shake out in the coming years is ds7 national newspapers were there is insufficient differentiation that would be snow forecast.

Another difference is the just the editorial line of the national newspapers if we just talk about the national newspapers.

You know and Britain you have the empty you have a weekly that's not even bird British anymore percentage of the week.

Is there a British billion global magazine supranational brand as well, but if you look at the national train times from source mean something strange is happening there in which it is a form of dumbing down over the years scandal and exaggeration and hype clearly.

I mean you prepare a relatively relatively the Germans going too much more depth.

They are much more nuanced.

There are much less extreme there are differences right and left over in so as a result General trust journey towards their present general and in particular their newspapers has remained pretty high.

And there is a balanced diet in a lot of these newspapers have an up market strategy.

They ask so if you were to give any advice, you would essentially be go serious go in-depth.

Stay honest kids juice because even in America is Fox News in this and then prn.

If you don't you want to know where you are which part of the market, but I think please do that as a whole has underestimated probably be degree to which all are there is a large enough market in in Britain for high quality possibly occasionally also a former 24 series more balanced journalism and dress clothes in Berlin thank you very much indeed.

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Enjoy responsibly drinkaware.co.uk Lisa markwell was editor of The Independent on Sunday from 2013 to 2016 her reign ended when the newspaper closed the Indies owners deciding the print was no longer needed and that digital was the way forward and Lisa markwell joins us now Lisa hello Twist out the Beginning when did your newspaper career begin my newspaper career began actually in the same sik Gloria for British newspapers, when are The Independent have recently launched as a daily paper Monday to Saturday and was doing very very well, when it was you know the other time.

It was almost changing the times for its circulation.

This was the late 80s but they had said that they would not going to open a Sunday paper and so a group of some rather disenchanted jealous from the Telegraph another papers decided that there was a gap for something to challenge the Observer to be no more independent of the smaller.

Of the broadly right wing sun depressed and lunch newspaper called the Sunday correspondent it had extremely impressive roll-call of people who've gone onto amazing things and cats Ben MacIntyre mcbrown Henry Porter in Parker amazing people and and I was at a lowly deputy features editor and the paper launched and was again change the times, but it was a successful painter and then the Independent tort law actually.

We think we'll do it and so they launch independent on Sunday in 1919 that was the death knell for the Sonic on it but I've been bitten by the bug that's why I've been in magazines that make me think I love going to bed now want to stick around and then after that you may be stuck around and newspapers to the 90s and 2000s I usually for someone who ended up where I did actually to the toggle between magazines and newspapers.

I was never a news report drivers.

Never should have in it out knocking on doors and and sudden hassling in a government press offices for stories.

I was more of a features person which I loved.

Something that you can do across a range of titles and every newspaper.

I think actually from that point around that pointless when the supplement Sunday so feature sections are really started to take off his hard news became you know that was the very beginning of the time of which people getting their news in different ways and so newspaper as a breaking news for my sort of slightly starting to be on it's very slow decline in Argos Aycliffe and two features are important and so that's how I managed to sort of work my way backwards and forwards and and you whenever I felt like the deadline for sub 2 hour on the hour to groom on a newspaper.

I could go to magazine in and someone shouting and during the 1990s.

Did you feel that newspapers in the industry was in a good place? There was there seem to be there was lots competition.

It was your son.

If some people really well paid they weren't all the threats of cups and advertising revenue losses and so on that you were saying now necessary.

I think it wasn't as difficult it.

Is it as it is now, but it was certainly.

Time will be there was an investment in its I suppose that the belief that any other big-name commentators and the unit as I said the colour supplements and all of those things were very important and that news was still to ring fenced in some way we went to a splashing the cash like the 80s but certainly it was still at of viable going concern and things like I was remembering the other day when TV listings were deregulated with up until then.

There's only been possible to for them to be in.

I think she magazine suddenly.

They would be regulated and all of the newspapers rushed to have TV listings magazines which course gave everyone circulation pump because people like great I can get my telly I can find out what's on television.

This is in the days course before you know electronic listings it with things like that, so whenever it seem like.

There's a bit of a la Linea something people became very interesting food intake in all the Megas all the newspapers don't food sections are there was always something that Jonah would say the boy it up even if news was with declining what went wrong.

Is it as simple as just say?

The internet happened willy internet certainly happened in a very big way.

I mean I remember when we first Enid have got a heads around this thing and working at The Independent it seems ludicrous to say this now, but the owners and management is almost fell to the internet was a bit of a flash in the pan and so there was no investment whatsoever in the digital side for that particular title when it cools others I think the Guardian is a good example.

So very quickly that to survive it would have to embrace that and become a newspaper that had both presences but certainly in terms of advertising revenue.

I think that was very much the beginning of the end because of course I did what is such a huge part of of what is sister in a makes a newspaper sustained.

That's so cash that you actually need to talk about then your time at the Independent on Sunday you took over at a time when an Indian its last 15 years was always seem to be six months away from possibly being the end, what was

Like to run a newspaper with a small team that was doing well to punch above it's weight but was under all this pressure is a very difficult time at mean I started at the Independent 1998 normal immediately was told that paper was about to go to business.

So when I took I was told that when I started in 2002 when I took over the editorship not sure enough.

I won't be around for long.

It'll be rolled into the daily paper and so on so I was I've heard it all before you know but I was very quickly given an extremely stiff wake up call with having to make quite a lot of people redundant and really really sort of pulling a horns in a way that I didn't think we're actually really sustainable into you have two choices as an editor you think you do I just do something that is diminish and doesn't try to embrace everything that needs papers wants work.

What do I try and think of a different way to do that and differences we have to completely change your arts coverage, but you know I still felt that it was valid and you just did a newspaper different way and actually what I want to do is make the newspaper much more forward-looking because cuz newspapers of always.

I thought about her beauty and the past recessive reactiveness and that's where you sit and get the sort of considered views and and this of analysis will actually that time is in a people aren't doing that anymore so the newspapers become something different that was certified nothing quite interesting point but it was here to publisher newspaper a weekly newspaper national with a big circulation in a big big Waterfront to cover with a core staff of 12 in ml to a new a small but we want to pressure would actually for front page of the year when I was edit it high point of my career absolutely and I went on stage and picked up the little glass prize and Oscar presenter if I could have another 11 and he looks like you questioning and in front of all the serried ranks all the times journalist know the Guardian journalist in table after table.

I said I need another 11 because that's not the people who did the front page that's actually the staff of The Independent on Sunday lunch and then to be fair as warm applause at the end.

How long did you?

Have between being told that the newspapers closing in it and the final issue.

We had I think it's 6 weeks and what was it like after the initial devastation.

I think it's weird when I think back to it now.

I just remember knowing because I knew a little bit and advanced people about to get this news there were a lot of tears people heartbreaking.

It's at that you know it's one of those places that you work when people are there because they believe in it still even at that point and after result of mammoths drinking session in the good old traditional newspapers everybody actually certainly an independent on Sunday in one or two people who you know right.

He felt aggrieved and very upset and Wild by the future's most people said when we were going to go out another way.

We've always done.

We're gonna go fighting as he say punching above her weight going to do a damn good newspaper right up until the last and then we can come for me.

I didn't want to stay around and work on the digital side.

I felt that I could walk away having dinner done everything I could walk.

The Lost what has the reader lost the country Lost by not having the Independent independent on Sunday as that voice of this very important time I think it's a huge loss.

I really do both as someone who was involved, but also is it in a person who's interested in politics and current affairs when you think about everything that's going on in that 18 months is Donald Trump the EU referendum what's going on with Theresa May in a Snap General Election that really there is a part from the Guardian there.

Isn't anybody still really questioning what what's going on when I look at the coverage of brexit in Absolutely despair and independent.

You know people used to joke about the fact that it had its own agenda, and they would so put a picture of a whale on the front page and say why are wine? Yeah, but actually it was a paper that did should have asked for your questions and in a push people's bottoms and that's missing and I really think that voice is missing and that's a great shame for everybody because that's what makes Debate and just finally do you think the newspaper industry can bounce?

Back what I always dreaded was a people would occasionally sale newspapers are doomed in may be the way forward is to the people to sort out on whatever bespoke newspaper whether that's print or digital where they get the sort of just the news the things that they're interested in so if you're interested in Arsenal Football Club and the unit food it would be tailored that way and I will sort that was is a terrifying prospect because you know then you're not getting a full spectrum of news book where we are now.

I feel like we've sort of cross that Rubicon or jumped out shark whatever you want to call it and that she is possibly that is the way forward for Titleist becomes slightly more specialised slightly more targeted.

Have a different business model certainly within a small of circulations for sure but if you look at the success of I mean magazines at prospect The Economist New Statesman those other news magazines which have quite a tight briefs they doing better, so I all is not completely lost but I think any swear massive Jacob rees-mogg, will thank you very much? Thank you.

Since we're talking about newspapers and their glory days.

We've decided to do what any good journalist of old would do and retire to the pub, but we're not here to talk about the old days.

We here to discuss the future and we've been joined by Jim Waterson political editor of BuzzFeed news.

Jim hello hello, let's start with talking about BuzzFeed it's online only you don't have the Grinch overheads.

That's a traditional newspapers would have at what are the advantages? Do you have as an online only organisation that you feel today's crop of newspapers or perhaps lacking in what are the main thing? We got his total Freedom so we don't have a newspaper to fill on a daily basis.

We don't need to file story is just the hell of having a story to go live and if there's something we find really interesting it doesn't matter so much if it's not on the national music Ender we can just pursue it and go down or a route to the main thing is an often people seem to imagine a BuzzFeed read resource it around their underpants underpants on a sofa.

Lounging around on bean bags and kinda.

Just finding this like that.

We're actually quite a traditional Newsroom we have a morning conference we coming we picture ideas, but the main thing is more about our story selection we actually publish a lot less the most newspapers.

We just trying to have a higher impact and more readers and move stories on more we don't just fail stories and filler for the hell of it you feel like a lot of traditional newspapers even those who have a very large online presence are still trying to do journalism in the old way of well.

He's a new wrinkle on this story.

Let's do another 600 were the two biggest shoes with when users online in the UK at the moment one is that you still got everyone trying to do everything it's crazy to my mind that you have 20 near identical reports of every prime minister's speech that goes online you don't really need that many the public art that interested.

You're not going to be able to get a lot of readers on that you're much better off trying to do something distinctive even.

It's very niche and you'll actually prefer see some time aside to get way more readers on something that's exclusive and niche then you will on the big story of the day the other issue.

I find with a lot of online places is because everyone's relying on Facebook for traffic and because certain stories and certain headline formats that if I can code you can crack the human emotion and work out what people are respond to everyone's content is starting to look the same everyone stories are blended into one you could be on the telegraph for the Independent or you not even the BBC sometimes and find the headliners near identical because you know once you've worked out that she been in motion plus good picture plus heartwarming outcome is what results in clicks then everyone follows that can you tell if you talk about finding that meets what are some examples of stories that you've done that you think would have quite newish appeal that have actually kind of taking off.

Cos you guys really come out things from a Leftfield way sometime.

Yeah, and it is really hitting miss it.

It's hard to predict what you normally know within about 5 minutes or pushing something on Twitter whether you're going to have something if people really interested generally the reassuring thing is it interesting things get red always use the three terms funny different exclusive if it's one of those three categories and you're going to get readers and if it doesn't then you probably won't because almost all of us for his readers come to us from Facebook Twitter or other social sites.

We don't have that same core readership, but the BBC In The Guardian does when people click on the homepage as much we've got to make them come to us.

We really going to work to make the stories good.

I was thinking politics the one that gets me is hereditary peers.

I mean they're the most boring these aspects of the House of Lords and we've had loads about the merpeople Love Really about them.

You've got 92 people are only there because they're great great grandmother slept with some King back in the day and no matter how many times you tell the story no matter how weird the details are people keep coming back for more on that she thing.

Any newspaper logo that is a page 27 to paragraph job but we've done 4000 word essays on them which have been really well read and you know it's the same when we write about how the media is changing a few years ago.

Would have been considered maybe something for an academic journal or may be best for a guardian Media supplement, but they can be really well and they can do your hundreds of thousands of years because people wanna get something that really changes their idea of how how they see the world so it's only ever when you put the working and going there for you.

Get the readers usually that means that you can't get as many readers on the quick.

It was into your eyes that issue Media stories and talking about how the media has changed you've written a lot yourself about this with new wave of Media outlets.

We've seen a video right the bright parts of this world and a during the trump election with seeing the spotnicks and the artis but you've also written a

This new wave of left wing publications like a Volt politics wall clocks and and others that have really had a bit more of an impact than people who get the news from traditional sources would perhaps have realised this was one of the really big break out things for my mind that changed during the last general election Nicky trying to pin one thing on.

How did suddenly Jeremy Corbyn search in the polls? What was it that made a load of people come round to him people have got to hear about those ideas somewhere and it's hard to argue that they're hearing about them from the traditional printed Media the broadcasters were fairly neutral in a way that they weren't necessarily before the campaigns that helps but a big shift is just another of people Redeemer politics on Facebook now.

I know this is all cliched novice the most the people are listening to it, but I sometimes think that people talk about social media like it's one big blob.

It's not it's just the media.

For delivering these sites in a different manner, so there's a small clique of sites canary another angry voice evolve politics place like that now.

These are not at the scale of national newspapers.

Yeah.

They're still largely existing within a labour friendly filter bubble if I was to completely guess their potential reach would be talking in the single-digit millions, but maybe in the high millions collectively during this campaign but people don't really read them like you would a newspaper then if they not quite got a loyal readership, but they are pumping out essentially left wing tabloid material in a way that we haven't ever had in the UK and even well to the left of the mirror and you know by their own admission some of them compare themselves to the sun.

Yeah, we are it is the Conservatives to have another shame cheerleader in the media.

Why can't Jeremy Corbyn have it and why can't we for fill that role and there's a public there.

Been issued by Jeremy Corbyn Who

Desperately want to read stories about you this one sweet by Tory MP proves.

Why the Conservatives should never be elected Theresa May just dropped a massive truth bomb on you'll never believe what she said stuff like that which it is easy to Mark but you know I can't really come up with an argument that says this isn't what the sun and the mail and to a certain extent the telegraph have been doing for years on the right.

We've been trying to answer the question yet.

How do you fix newspapers? Are we sort of asking the wrong question because it's I don't want us to give the impression that we want to try and hot back some glory days the 7th serrated or whenever anyone thinks the glory days were there.

Yeah there for five newspapers and but then users from that source as being the the gold standard that everyone should aim for is there a is there a different gold standard that we should be aiming for the you.

Think is possibly a good insight.

I'm going to slightly flip that on its head and say that the big question that I'm struggling with at the moment is what do we count as the new?

Is media in the UK so I used to be really easy you had TV radio and newspapers even National local and easy to draw tyranitar go that is the media if you get into coverage in that that's what people are consuming now.

We've got these sites that we've added into the mix so we just talked about evolve politics another angry voice canary, are they the media are they just activist blogs and then you add Facebook groups, so if I put a post up and I am just a random person.

I'm sitting here now.

I am in Grimsby I've just had a terrible experience of the DWP I put up a personal first-person story of the sort that 10 years ago you two packs of taken to a newspaper to get published and if that goes finally gets read by 2 million people is that the media if you're trying to fix something with such a leaky boundary a regulation enforcement standards improving things is really hard if the public want to read that Facebook status.

Order they want to read the balanced analysis peace fire proper journalist.

He's done things quote the right way.

What do you do about that? How do you eventually to struggle? How do you force the public to eat their greens and should you force you to do that? Do they have to have the good stuff? You know because that's what we all think is right for them to consume or can they just door John videos on on Facebook product by basically members of the public which five years ago those videos would have reached the audience by being mediated at least I have a site but put a phone call in to the police double check some of the facts, but now that that's never going to happen so fishy fannies.

What what what is the media? Which is more relevant than it sounds it sounds like he's terraquest it really does matter.

How do you get the public to eat their greens? How do you manage to have?

The journalist necessary to scrutinize the sort of raw data of stories that you get in you've got to pay somebody salary BuzzFeed of got a add model those pay World models online but again if you've got your Media coming from a private citizen in Grimsby the cast rise up pretty fast and that's a slightly similar argument and important one in terms of bringing much scrutiny to bringing.

It is not cynical no sense because it's that's how it works it if you can't get someone to pay for it then on the whole was only at least traditionally gym.

You haven't then been able to carry on you could write your one post, but then you've got your job to do the future of political Media certainly the way I see it going is of having a small number of incredibly in that accurate data journalism has ever existed in any age before sites read by 4 million people you'll find better analysis more factual stuff stuff for the

Graphs exclamations essentially fact check collectively by Twitter and subsidized by combination of paywalls sites like BuzzFeed which have an ad models which doesn't necessarily rely on display as as much and also think I think tanks where they saw the Blur the line and then on the other side you going to have the biggest rocket that you've ever seen and I really do think there's going to be a mass of swirling innuendo basically false headlines cure flicking through your Facebook feed father of the lowest common denominator staff and what's going to die is the middle ground that should have today Theresa May said this you need to go to have we've got the definitive guide to what's Theresa May's top tema thinking or no my god.

Did you see the Conservatives are eating babies again Siri way to end it Jim Waterson from BuzzFeed news.

Thank you very much indeed.

Thank you.

So is Jim heads or

The bar at Steph I mean, I hesitate to ask have we fixed it.

Cos it sounds like the future is going to be absolutely awful.

I think what we've done this with created the great industry for a new generation of libel lawyers from the sound of a heifer mean my sense from working in the industry.

I don't know what your readers is that as soon.

God in increasingly desperate industry of got a big gap between the ones and the kind of emotive reporting on the other hand I don't know how you bridge that I would say you know state Media like the BBC other places that are independently funded.

Maybe have a hope.

I'm giving you your fairly neutral headlines be on there.

I think it is going to be quite difficult so I'm not sure we have fixed it was interesting though.

Is that both Jim and Lisa earlier talked about a similar model for the future this idea that you would have smaller niche publications weather in print or online.

That's that were trusted and that there are enough people to know whether that was a small print audience of 20 30000 or a larger online or didn't said maybe have hundreds of thousands of small millions who would actually trust that publication and it would be well researched by well fact checked.

It would have some sort of intellectual heft behind it so maybe there is a future for journalism and journalists.

We hope but whether we fix it in terms of the old style newspaper system I very much doubt in witches if you have news publications speaking to be I think a minority of the population you know is it a problem that most people might move towards data distance weather not in countering traditional journalism and instinctively.

I think that is a problem, but I'm a journalist.

I would instinctively say that's a problem and so think the way as gym, Eynsham

Politicians mediate their messages the way we do kind of the day today coverage of the political and cultural theories going to change enormously what impact that will have on people's lives.

I'm not sure I have an answer to ok.

I will leave it there that is it for how to fix my thanks to Lisa markwell Jim Waterson and dress quote and a course Steph Poland how to fix was recorded and edited by Matt Hill at roofing audio here in the heart of Westminster for further reading go to Prospect magazine.

Co.uk slash how to fix we will have links to Lisa markwell last ever front page for the Independent on Sunday I will also have a link to Jim Morrisons big piece about a left wing news outlets and will be more information about Andreas flute and handelsblatt global how do you want to meet us and why not? I'm at Bloomfield SJ Steph is at Stephanie Boland I'm also please do pick up a copy of prospect magazine.

It's on new stands right now if you want to subscribe.

Guess my website you find all the details there join us next week before how to fix when we try to work out how to fix that Westminster institution prime Minister's Questions I'm sleeping field that was how to fix.

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