Read this: #92 - The Gender Pay Gap, Interns and a lifeline for Sky - The Media Podcast with Olly Mann

Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm only map today's show is recorded the room next to a building site so apologies for the drilling.

You may his practically throughout however.

We will be discussing the gender pay gap dissected.

How broadcasters and publishers have fed now all the results are in also on the program our panel will discuss monocle intern was Disney's life line for Sky News I'm just who will be presenting this year's McTaggart keynote in Edinburgh that plus we crunched the numbers in our Media quiz.

It's all to come on today's Media podcast and joining me today for her Media podcast debut is journalist and documentary maker Kieran Yates hello Karen hello.

I'm in me great pleasure.

Thank you for thanking me.

I don't that's ever happened before what have you been up to this week give us an exciting glimpse into your Media week.

I am writing at the moment.

Death so sort of beyond the point of what happens to your social media when you die, but more about how this conversation is moving into will writers and that sort of world.

So how are these conversations about who you elect to shutdown your Facebook been part of Willow requests and what happens next what happens to your bitcoins.

What happens to Audible in your iTunes.

Yeah, so investigating all all manners of deaths this week, what happens to my audible download is Rick Astley keep out of the hands of the Lord is my instinct but bitcoins that's fascinating bitcoins.

You can keep but your iTunes library can't get you.

So enjoy it while having also joining us this week Media podcast regular Madan MD of folder Media what have you been up to much safer phone kids refund service radio station and we are going to take a shower to Edinburgh this year, so we are just working out what that is left of the hole.

Month and that's because you're worth with the presenters children come up with the shows going to work when you say taking you show to Edinburgh do you mean broadcasting? Is it worth medrol? Do you mean that you have a life experience for kids come and see the live experience so we've come up with her a new theatre style.

Show.

Are you going to do so without seriously any of it for kids 1100 University and that he paid for his degree doing you're on to a winner, but of course.

You're so will be great quality as well right.

So let's talk about the gender pay results the UK's media companies have reported their respective gender pay gaps and some make for uncomfortable reading a monk's the worst offenders are the Telegraph and global with around a 35% pay gap between men and women compared to the national average of 18% the BBC's much regarding the press fest districts since they went first and the Guardian and the evening Standard all rated amongst the lowest in the sector and in the Endemol shine.

Had no pay gap.

A tool keyring, what did you make of the sidings interesting because with companies like The Guardian and the BBC we hold them to greater account so I suppose that's why not only because they were the first release but why the BBC was under so much heat and disappointment I think for a lot of female broadcasters, but looking at this is A6 now.

I mean I'm not surprised.

I look at someone like global and Telegraph Media Group but I do think that conversations are changing internally but we need to really start challenging notions of talking about how much we earn in the workplace really having open discussion about what that means what these disparities mean empowering a new generation of women into work to feel like they can have a place where the negotiating salary or at least having an open discussion about it because while I'm not surprised by the globals and Telegraph Media groups.

I don't think that's that gives them any licence to continue so I think it's a little bit of fatigue, but also a little bit of now.

Time for activism when you say about that goes she a Singer salary.

We don't know because we haven't got the stats on it whether people are being paid equally for the same role regardless of gender what we know is the gender pay gap, but that might Simply Be a man.

Who is a good or bad thing but it might Simply Be that more men have more senior positions and more women have more junior positions be more complicated than paying women more getting women to negotiate more.

It's getting women into senior roles and then the question comes do they want them or they applying for them absolutely feel like to be is all part of this conversation about you know the work you're going to have after you take time off if you choose to for maternity leave the conversations that you have about applying for senior positions in the mentors in the building who are around to support you adequately the negotiating pay.

There's just one step of a much larger ideological shift has to happen within our workplaces and then you can start talking about this may pay gap which is also depressing Reading

Probably is the next thing isn't it? What was your reaction to these some of the data people describe the different quartiles when you can start to see a bit about is it at the top? Is it at the bottom for me? I looked up so that the company's cakes to Radio it's my sector Goebbels disappointing.

I didn't surprising when prima I can't think of a senior woman that wasn't any of the radio station the wrong everybody gets to see it.

It's embarrassing for everyone and they'll have discussions about it and I'll have to engage with it and I'm sure what the staff there a grumpy embarrassing.

It's bad.

It's bad for culture.

It's bad for the social culture.

It's bad for economically you know the the case for diversity across the board is about hiring from diverse Talent pools and

So when you see these this sorts of data of course that we have to apply nuance and complexity as to what we see but the message that I get from that.

Is it then not Fielding from Birthday to Paul's same People moving from across companies perhaps there is a bit of your later nepotism in these Industries which have always known about but it's more than embarrassing.

It's bad.

It's bad for a cultural output and it's bad for people looking at our industry is wanting to be in it and feeling like they're not going to see themselves as if there is a bit of these companies know if you went through 10 years of statements.

They have give a lip service to it's an embarrassment is that they've been shown up that is just this just all talk and that cultural change.

I mean that's just talk about what that might practically mean so let's talk to him history of having a family because of course men V women be mothers, but it does seem particularly to be the case that when women return to the workplace in media is a particular problem.

There aren't jobs being offered that they are able to flexibly do.

Very difficult to say to company like global I want to come in and work 2 days a week or 3 days a week those jobs.

Just don't exist let's seems to me like a simple thing that can be amended within the company culture that isn't being I think so but also coming from someone is on a lot of freelance backgrounds actually I've I've also worked with Global on short-term contracts.

I've worked across lots of the companies that are in this list on short-term contracts on freelance contract, so there is ability to know be put forward for these things if you're an expert radio producer at BBC it's and to leave your job is perfectly feasible that you might do short-term contract work once you finished your contract and contract is typically work 6 days a week work 10 hours a day for 3 weeks.

Isn't it? It's not I want to work three afternoons a week the gig economy has meant that actually our approach to hours and I'll post it working.

It's completely different you know as a freelancer who has come out of this industry post-recession and is seen that the massive shift that's happening actually.

A lot of myself and my peers your fellow journalist and broadcaster some producers what they're finding is that these long-term jobs the economic infrastructure that might have existed 10 years ago don't exist anymore in the same way and the people that have them increasingly lucky.

So you know to go back to the original point women or men who have taken time out who were then going back into work don't feel like their support, but this is an industry-wide thing.

You know they're they're the last people to make the game so it's it's a more fundamental issue with the problems of have insecure work.

How was the are given to you or via our contracted short-term contracts as though I think that there needs to be a bit of discussion and dismantling about how you manage security when this is where we find ourselves is a government incentive.

Isn't it? Which is why these figures are coming out you know it's all Industries have to publish their figures on this over certain size and obviously with the media podcast we talk about media industry, but it feels like the whole country is talking about the media industry and their gender pay gap.

This is about all businesses and actually within the media industry on this show for example.

We can talk about this issue for about four or five years now.

So when is obviously a lot to be done if feels like the media Industry at least has vocalise at there's a problem long before a lot of other Industries but still getting in the neck a bit by the other members of the media loves talking about the media in the media and so there is disproportionate coverage of ourselves in newspapers and also doesn't help that the newspapers love locking the BBC and it's very easy thing to knock and the other bit is people see Talent on the screen.

They are interested in what Ant and Dec get paid and what news reader's a paid or how much television show costs to make and they assume that that's too much money and the newspapers know it's easy to put something in there that makes a lot of years ago.

I can't believe these people are paid this much.

Well, Have I Got News For You Matt in related news can be registered there, Ian Hislop and Paul

They've been speaking to the radio Times about their new series pondering whether female MPs are too modest to take a turn in the presenter chair during your thoughts and that means really because it's actually sort of connected but departed from this idea that women aren't funny that you know this could have long held myths the female comedians.

Don't do as well.

So you there isn't a big enough audience for them, but this is something else isn't it? Does kind of idea of modesty but still so funny to think about that in there in a Muslim context is my family would use it but it's strange as I want some pic is actually what that means.

What's he talking about? Is he saying that they're not as open as forthright to talk about the issues of the day as their male counterparts at that their clothes.

Does it that they're more guarded put in a post Diane Abbott moment that we find ourselves but he's up for a lot of abuse.

What does he really mean by that what his government in said was that if you look back across the guest booking over the last whatever it is 1520 years have long as has been.

The only female MP that ever come all night Believers the serving MP was Ann Widdecombe so what they're saying is it's not we haven't asked.

It's that female MPs always say no and they didn't actually provides a reason for that.

They just said to modest maybe isn't modesty maybe it's something else maybe it's space or you know they're going to be able to own the conversation has an agency not have to grapple with you know male comedians who were monopolizing time of course.

They would say no but you know I think what but why is that different why would Boris Johnson say yes, but a female MP would say no is that a problem with the show that has a gladiatorial confrontational Mayall vibe to it.

Cos that's the style of the comedy people tuning in to work.

That's definitely the issue that so you know if you have a show that's based on these not aggressive overpowering male voices you feel like you're going to have to Battle to find your own.

Play so get your way in of course.

That's undesirables going to find me Nigel Farage must feel like that too when he goes on if you got news for you.

He's thinking well.

I'm going to have to fight have my voice head and I go to be taking the piss out of me the whole time it shouldn't be a male female issue.

If your model lies voice in the room if you already minority voice in the room then of course you're going to find it more difficult and actually the responsibilities for people to allow you space that doesn't mean people have to go easy on you at all doesn't mean that you're not going to enable a bastard in the same way as Nigel Farage would be but it does mean that as a collective responsibility to make sure that you had that you don't feel like you can't have a witty repartee that you can't have rebuttals and that's the issue writing what I was required watching if I got news for you as a viewer Matt is that sometimes they were weeks of a kebab at Wetherby five men that email hosting and for metal and those completely I mean I'd watch that and think that is clearly just ridiculous when you're talking about the news but also off.

The women that come on there might be funny people like Lauren Laverne but they're not comedians in so a lot of the bookings when women come on aunt female comedian.

There are so many female comedians out there don't quite know why that's happening absolutely.

I think they're interestingly when is the series first started the two choices of hosts were Angus Deayton or Sandi Toksvig I think she says she's a line that one of the bits of feedback.

Was you there? We can't have her at woman in charge of the news back.

I get in until late 80s early 90s.

I think there's there's a couple of interlocking issues, aren't there there's have they created a space were women want to come on are they making efforts enough effort to book women and then also I think there is a bit about what's the feedback women getting social media when putting the head above the parapet is disproportionately negative compared to men looking things in she doing the things I do with a runner aradia conference and we make efforts to to make it 50 50 ml.

Female we have to put more effort into getting women to agree to to come on and I think there is a bit of if we ask a man who isn't perfect for a role he is quicker to say yes than a woman who is more qualified than her say it and what we're trying to do is one asked more women than men to try and get the percentage up and also try and be flexible about support and training to eat if they've haven't spoken before to encourage more of it.

So you can't just go why ask 50/50 if you've got to do a little bit more and I do but you shouldn't have to but if you if you really want to make the difference you've gotta you gotta go for it.

Do you think quota style is the right method to deal with this Kieran said we've seen the BBC this week also promising to achieve parity in the gender of contributors the News programmes next year.

It's not amongst.

I think they're reporters and government ministers.

Also can't do much about that, but they're talking about the guess.

They have on his experts 50% of I'm going to be women.

At the right way to deal with this the main aim here is visibility and it's attacking an unconscious bias, which not only in our industry, but uk-wide we see displays itself an interview processes when people asking for Leadership roles you know perhaps.

They are unconsciously more biased towards men for that and the more nurturing more interpersonal skills roles, they might look at women you know I don't think that it's a new conversation to argue that there is an unconscious bias in the way that these things operate and one way to start attacking that is by really promoting women you know especially women of colour into these positions were they wouldn't necessarily get in obviously I'm an Asian woman.

I used to think when I've got into this industry.

That was very difficult being part of quotas games are being part of diversity schemes because perhaps that somehow always undermined your position that somehow you would only been bought in based on a quota, Boxster

The exercise for actually what I think now is that this has been the most effective way of becoming visible of dismantling old World structures that felt like they were never going to change its an imperfect solution, but I think that is the best that we have and I think it really works actually because it does all of that new ones Gentle On The Ground stuff which is saying he is a woman.

She actually is an expert to the things.

She is our Chinese corresponding and she does speak Mandarin and she is our expert and I think that you have to create what you want to see you and it's a good fest app and I'm just curious.

Just as a side note this this story about his Locker mountain came out of the radio Times what is there secret that they seem to get amazing quotes that really you know grab the news agenda.

Is the radio times we talking about here.

How do they do that is it just because people think it's the radio times have tough can it be God is down there? Maybe I made it because it's actually profitable magazine.

They're investing in reporters and journalism you think about what they going to ask before they asked.

And then publicize it a week of the week.

Yeah, they seem to have a great story if we go to the brake.

Let's squeeze in this from America for Sinclair broadcast group has been accused of forcing journalists to use prepared scripts biased and Fox News has become all too common on social media harming some Media outlets publicly saying fake stories without checking facts first is sharing of Fire stands news Harry Potter, that was a whole bunch of things are presented from all over the country on their daily bulletins compiled by deadspin Mac can you explain what happen here Sinclair broadcasting Operator live TV stations at the way America works? Is that the station's tend to be independently owned or ran by groups and then they opt into certain networks like NBC and CBS affiliates to those networks and what the local stations do primarily is the low.

Blood cells and local news Sinclair quite a long time they gradually expanded and require lots of these and local stations and they've started introducing must-read segments on their new shows and some of these are droppings of commentators and they've picked up slightly odd right wing people like Boris Epstein who is a sawtooth trump surrogate in the campaign and then this is in Staines today.

They prepare the Script notionally as a sort of campaign across then used teams promoting truth, but they all to sound like they've been kidnapped as they had to read the same script but ITN might do something like that.

It's a difference.

I think is this is been corporately driven rather than authority different so whilst you don't the BBC GNS sends Out updates to all the local radio stations.

Journalist has decided what's happening a running order has been been put together.

It's not come from Tony Hall like yes, you must say these things then they haven't got the option to opt out of it.

So if they don't feel that it's right.

It's stuff.

Cos you'll be fired if you don't this is under the spotlight because what a because that video went viral and it's kind of creepy watching the same scripting repeated that many times and be because of the association corporately between Sinclair management and trump right.

There's a suggestion is there doing Trump's work here by promoting the idea of fake news as his opponents, are it seems and the bosses are have got pretty right wing views the main guy in November I think to the New Yorker said that all print journalism is pretty much of lies and left wing propaganda.

So they don't talk to those people even though they probably rip their stories for that day new shows and also they did a deal with the trump campaign when he was campaigning about access to their stations No Bass

Many of the same thing to the Clinton campaign and they didn't want to take them up on it, so there's a little bit of discussion there terrorism Desk The Voice Epstein things all of the things they tend to do a from the Fox News PlayBook Sports in today when you aggregate all of the output of those TV channels.

They are bigger than Fox News and I think people trust the local news probably a bit more because they've seen those guys for a long time and it doesn't have that same feeling like if you watch Fox News you can and know what you can again, but there are operated by Sinclair so they still corporate vibe to them because your friendly local face general operations and the Assumption from a lot of viewers is I'm watching something from ABC when I said they're not they're watching something from sickly ok, but if you look at the actual words they said so.

This is what the scripts said some members of them.

Did you use their platforms to push their own personal bias and agenda to control exactly what people think this is extremely dangerous to democracy when you understand the background mattress explained that there's links to trump inaugurated it then you might think will this is a little bit frightening but actually the words themselves taken away from trump fake news network nonsense actually it's not wrong.

Is it a miss is nothing wrong with liking to an audience that they should be aware.

What are we being listened to this is an about I'm picking words devoid the context.

This is about really understanding.

How aggressive this context is and how fascinating it is the people working with a media to see how this is playing out.

So this whole idea of commercial interest versus actual interest is really interesting but for me.

What's the most fascinating thing is what you just touched on this idea of packaging your politics through these local friendly faces, so these are people who you have trusted.

These are people who you going up with maybe these are people who you don't like coming.

No.

Open your local supermarket suddenly using them as extensions of the state took over use these this colour political rhetoric becomes quite sinister and all well and doesn't it? You know I don't think political or impartial politics and the news is really our our current moment unfortunately but I do think that the way that this is is operating hours really interesting because suddenly it looks on the outside that Trumps agenda.

Is very artfully being transmitted through living rooms in internet stations in and radios across two spaces and in quite a sinister way, so you know this is a new it was done before with Roosevelt in his fireside chats and all that kind of stuff, but there's something about this that feels sinister band and when you see it all in the context Media used in this way when you see the words operating like this when you realise that is linked to Tramps and it's very quiet.

Massive far-right rhetoric which ends in hate crimes on the ground suddenly we can't divorce the words in the context and so no matter how many how many times you're reading it uses think not sit right what you got to remember is Trump success.

He owes electoral success was a very small percentage of a very small number of states in only has 0 small Edge and so making small changes to a small number of people's perceptions about things can be very powerful.

I think what we've seen for him.

They were there lots of problems with his administration that variety muse sources have picked up.

It is in their interest to make people disbelieve mainstream Media offer for him in his supporters to believe that that and treaters what's going to happen post Russia investigation and whether he's targeted or or all of his colleagues.

Are there was going to be a lot of negativity that will come from that and his argument will be.

This is all fake news.

It's all apply to Liverpool player etc etc.

So everyone one percentage point that they can gradually shift in people's Minds is positive for them and we'll try and keep me interesting just inside the way that this siphoning your information to speak directly to the individual is really effective so this is something that you know the media is used a long time especially Internet it's not often called there that online Conundrum how do you speak directly to the individual and BuzzFeed used to use it with the list that used to go viral as you know in an early adopter of how to up your traffic numbers by doing things like me 35 things.

You only know if you're a Punjabi girl from Harrow as there is the your computer that you're completely spoken to his directed completely to use so you have a secure audience on this feels like a little bit more of an extension of that.

It's siphoning your information to your speaking directly to a certain person of a certain profile in the living room and you feel like.

Got their support for life or you know that loyalty so it's it's less about this national conversation and more about siphoning it to the individual and I think that's a really effective marketing ploy.

It does seem to be effective doesn't it? I mean trump may not get his Wall built and he's not gonna put Hillary in prison, but he has succeeded in modelling the picture like Putin has in Russia so that the general population America don't know who to trust anymore that has worked absolutely lies on his Twitter feed you know the moment talking about all these people flooding over the border taking advantage of Dhaka as well number one you've cancelled aka, but it only applies for people who were here pre-2007 either.

He doesn't understand how things work pretty high possibility also the other option is that he's lying to people also very high possibility that the issue doesn't even he's not bothered about telling the truth.

It's all about his own position.

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Come to learn more in machines like me by Ian McEwan Britain has lost the Falklands War Margaret Thatcher battles Tony Benn for power and Alan Turing achieves a breakthrough in artificial intelligence in World not quite like this one machines like me is this story of a robot in love, it asks a question couldn't machine understand the human heart one of the finest writers alive Ian McEwan Returns in an exciting and audacious new novel 14580 time does the news in brief now and Kieran are still with me and at the end of last week and Article appeared in the Guardian entitled why I'm suing over my dream.

Internship the story was written by former intern and malignant.

What was she claiming seems to be a bit of a disagreement between Monaco and her I think about what she expected and red diplomatic and what they expected should about this is the story what I thought yeah, when we take on interns who are paid does that look a little bit in what their responsibilities are and then what they wanted to do when they want to do extra work because of them wanted to show their their skills to get a job.

So what she said she was working at Monaco on a paid internship, but it was £30 a day and for that basics couldn't afford to live and yet during her internship.

She managed to get a great opportunity to write a cover story for them and at the moment.

She realise that everyone else who is being paid for the publication of her cover story was being paid decently apart from her and she thought that wasn't acceptable that she's been exploited to put in long days getting coffee for people all the rest of.

Average a bit journalism, she wasn't paid for that either case but if that's true absolutely yes, is it entirely malicious might be might not be but there is a bit about setting out your stall as an employer on how things work so the people know what's going to happen based on what they do.

I mean what she was writing in this guardian long read Kieran was that basically media companies are addicted to interns.

They rely on them to do the stuff that they don't wanna pay someone to do you think that's true that there's a couple of things from this one of course this idea of low-paid workers are those are our contract and all this kind of thing as a conversation.

It is a universal one while Western universal one we hear this conversation all the time the UK reading this brought back a lot of PTSD for me when I was interning very triggering story but the conversation when I was intending me.

Like 10 years ago was completely different there was an absolute expectation that this would happen and accidentally expectations.

You know you wouldn't always be paid and if you were going to write you wouldn't be paid now think there's only a good thing that this has moved forward that now actually not only should I be paid for the work done but there's an internal conversation that teaches me about the commissioning process about word rates about how much Labour and how much work and how much money should be part of his conversations because that is part of training and internships to and you're right.

It's about marking out editorially from management saying this is either lying.

This is what we want to present Mummy having interns in we also want to teach them to be industry ready in part of that conversation is discussing money in labour and how that works in a fair way and also remember the time over there is no I mean how long do you keep your interns for as interns may actually we very much specify.

What is the length of it and I think a lot.

Some companies base their business model on interns working for free but do they get extra value from having extra members of staff to support what they do absolutely that is that we existed and ideas economy and so having young diverse interns coming through our doors is part of our industry is the backbone of new diverse interests in storytelling Elvis Duran said on the show only last week, so yeah, of course the model is it is actually support me voices coming in but are these voices are getting cover stories? They doing great ideas that are doing your great reporting and accessing spaces.

It's difficult for people to access and they're being rewarded or not and if they're not being rewarded with incentive to continue doing that.

I should say monocle responded to the story in press Gazette saying but today.

They haven't received a legal claim from her and that they comply with the terms of the national minimum wage of £7.50 an hour.

I should also say my favourite bit was when she talked about time.

Using intend to fly out stuff on a plane so that you can have clothes at Fashion Week amazing Disney have indicated.

They would be happy to purchase sky news from Rupert Murdoch even if the proposed merger with 21st Century Fox doesn't take place Matt white deals Century Fox and before that happens 21st Century Fox against to buy sky so Disney would like that to happen because they would quite like to own sky and for chili.com cast of appeared saying we're going to challenge and maybe win control of Sky decorating Disney's interest for 21st Century Fox to acquire sky the rest of Skye and not comcast and if that means promising Sky News exist for 10 years and continues to be a female continue continue for it to be funded Eros making channel.

This is a multi billion dollar deal so promising that's fine and you know what if they ended up buying sky and all of Sky being sold to come.

Last I'm sure they'd end up selling it back to comcast or doing something with it.

It's fine.

We're going to have to take a massive multi-million-pound rights at you pay fees if the deal doesn't go through anyway, so you know London million quid investment in Sky is probably nothing so I get past the corporate view the political view is that there's a problem the UK government say with Rupert Murdoch cos this was the highest very scary.

Got to go to Disney 21st Century Fox wanted to first by out the bit of Skye they didn't own and then sell it to Disney but the government have blocked that happening because of disproportionate mobile influence of Murdoch owning Sky News racing competitions this then ok discussions about fitting propolis and although we are making it take longer than he would like.

Review if Disney came along and buy Sky News and the government don't care but the comcast end up with the rest of it or whether 21st Century Fox and the rest of it with a Disney another it's a bit if Disney coming by Sky News that does remove all this issue.

Doesn't it about media plurality is it Sky News that's the problem guess, so is this a win for everybody everyone I was working for the Guardian covering the Leveson Enquiry and at the time and I member being glued and fixated to the screen watching it happened minute by minute and you know internally it felt like what a great merits as a potentially really a great moment for Media reform that was the term that was being used you know for the whole enquiry and the year after with this whole and Pat unpacking Tom Watson was really fighting this battle flying the flag for Media reform Hugh Grant was stepping in disgusting ear Lily Allen you know every felt like right.

This is a real moment and what did we see come out?

The Rupert Murdoch own invoice or at least having a lot more Dettori influence about what was happening there and then these discussions now, so for me.

It feels like our God for such a young snowflake be excited about that but also like all jokes aside.

This is this is depressing write this this kind of shows has very little movement in the way of reform that we hope that we would see during that time.

What can you say about it was going to be in Bath and have a protected editorial board so whether or not you like who ends up owning it.

It will be protected in the way of the Guardian is it will have a trust can be protected editorial though, because what we seen actually come out of voice over the last year was there is a little bit of unconfirmed allegations around at how much editorial wait that Murdoch has carried and how much actually affects editorial policy and output so any of us really 100% sure that this is not going to fetch us to a policy.

I'm not sure.

And that's the issue not whether it is or isn't but I will trust in it the BBC went about the BBC for their appointed Jason Phipps as head of their new podcast division good appointment appointment.

They should say he's had a guardian audio.

Just a month ago and the possible weekly hosts and producers have been very successful.

Separately Jason's now gone you know Guardian Audio was on the first newspapers to read get into podcasting.

Maybe they did it too early 10 years ago, but we're with the Guardian Audio thing.

That's that's the big question the BBC themselves are launching a new audio product in few months time.

They are replacing iPlayer for radio with the new product and in effect for that is the off flipping it's at the moment you going through the live radio channels.

That's their pursuit of main front door.

They going to flip that the other way and you going to go into shows and people about that we catch up up.

Cast to the on-demand elements going to be much bigger Jason's going to commission new podcast and they're asking questions about whether they want to feature.

Non BBC podcasts In that audio products lots of issues for them internally externally so on demand audio.

Is is at the forefront of what they're doing so bring some for me outside to a good hire also for me.

This is a bit about what they doing with ITV iPlayer which in effect is now becoming Netflix the word ketchup is not mentioned anymore.

You know you getting box sets you getting previews of things when the first episode drops you get them.

All.

I think they're trying to make her a run to do the same thing to audio first if someone from the Guardian I mean maybe you might have thought someone from npr.org it in America now applied for this and that felt like it really fit because

Is the me though the new journalism is really at the Apex of of long reads and I would probably say the same about podcasts you know I think that they're you know American podcast and the format and the modelling and the commissioning is really ahead of the game so probably would have thought it would be there as opposed to the Guardian ware podcast of had varying success actually used to host the Guardian music Weekly podcast of years ago for a couple of years at the time.

You're right it felt like they really early adopters or something and I worked with Jason at that time too and you know there was lots of internal conversations, but not necessarily always having the resource or not knowing the best way to do it so definitely there is a spirit to try and do a bit of interest in commissioning.

I think probably outside their BBC is a good move not sure if hiring from the Guardian is the best move only because the headline of it wasn't only his appointment but his appointment that she would be doing a lot of youth programming and of course it's an easy shot to take it's really funny.

Horse another older white man taking the mantle for young diverse programming you know that's that was been a bit of the backlash on Twitter nothing that there's probably a fair criticism this doesn't necessarily seem to me from outside of his life and amazing moment of internal change, let's say but I think that the Spirit of you know wanting to find new door that on it and commissioning new ideas definitely there.

I would be interesting to see what the processes is it going to be in the way that shows a commissioned at the moment where independence will be able to pitch in will it be all internal were people without gaining tender how how will this work? I'd like to little bit more about it, but the BBC is sending a message that put castle in their future and I don't think that's a bad thing Russell Road Edinburgh International TV festival they reveal their McTaggart keynote speaker for this year.

Who is it tell her I love her you know what this is a really good example of great commissioning and independent commissioning.

And trusting someone who doesn't have thoroughly have a huge audience so she is the writer and actress of chewing gum Channel 4 series was commissioned hasn't been recommissioned for various reasons, but now she's move over to do with Netflix and cheese and films and she's doing lots of interesting script writing producing and acting so she was relatively unknown in terms of TV world and Cycles the Script went through tunnel forum was commissioned and it did really well and he's up for a BAFTA I saw yesterday.

Yeah, I think this is a great moment I expect that she will talk about stuff.

I like diversity about you know especially young black women on screen having agency in the room with scriptwriters because when you watch chewing gum one of the things for me that really stands out is that it sounds and feels authentic appeals and the ground because the voices are authentic because you know this is storytelling.

That's happening on the ground in people out looking in the in the room very different and sound.

Very different to what we seen before so I expect you talk about those issues by special and also talked about the importance of Arts funding of Supporting who voices of making sure that they getting of training of mentoring of hustling all of all of these things that we can't hear enough of really does it matter but some of the TV executives in The Rumour going to have to Google it before they go to the toilet there anyway because to hear different voice ok? There is just time for our Media quiz this week is entitled follow the money numbers are very much the trend of the week, so is three more in the form of currency? I'll give you the number you tell me in what way it appeared in the media news this week best of 3 above your name when you know the answer securing you will say that you will say here is number number one buzzing when you know the answer 1 million pounds.

Give me your name when you know the answer Karen yes, sort of I think yeah, it is the amount of Sky Bet we're find this week for allowing hundreds of potentially vulnerable people to keep betting after they asked to be barred here is number number to 5 million.

How bad is that how much Bake-Off yes, it is Amazon yes Amazon of the new Bake-Off sponsor.

Yes, what does that get them the £5000000 you know they get the main show the spin-off show the celebrity show yes, my new baking programmes world of Alexa skill I guess baked in maybe a little becomes Sandi Toksvig I don't know we could potentially imagine Amazon buying the program in the future on this just need to stop another 70 million.

They can buy the whole thing to get the tent and all ok here is number number 3 is the tie-break 9.7 million.

Matt Matt Matt Matt this is it is Future Publishing boot split Media week of the campaign mediaweek music musically yes future publishing have acquired music week and other brands owned by newbay Media SIM or consolidation in the magazine industry, basically, did you do that as a sign of strength or weakness know what who's cracked that on I can undo a like as long as I'm getting paid as a journalist at this point.

I don't even care well on that note of optimism my thanks to Karen Yates and Matt Deegan and thank you for listening and if you're the kind of person who feels guilty when presenters ask for contributions to a shower then why not try taking out of voluntary subscription to this one you will feel that burden lifted try it head to the media podcast on / donate and selected amount for us to money grab and remember you can catch up with our previous episodes and get new episodes as soon as they're released by subscribing for free on our website the media podcast.

Dot.com I've been all email and the producer Matt Hill the media podcast is a PPM production until next time bye bye.

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