Read this: CNN vs Trump, Facebook hires Clegg, Radio 2 woes

Hello and welcome to the media podcast I'm J cancer on today show trump vs.

Journalism Nick Clegg's journey from Downing Street to Silicon Valley and what's wrong at Radio 2 plus our panel of guests discuss the gift of Iceland's Christmas advert banned and the argument forgiving controversial figures a platform and can you spot the worst podcast cliches in the media quickest? It's all come in today's Media podcast with me today is Rebecca Kelly journalist at the week.co.uk and made mcclanachan.

Make it of the tip-off podcast and investigative journalist welcome guys want a little island of media news while the government is an apparent meltdown Yahoo knows what's happening outside the prime minister.

Could have gone by the time.

We stop recording.

What have you been chasing this week's Rebecca

Sirpugger a weekly news podcast busy and that's about finding an stories that haven't been reported very much and bits of glass because we're running we're putting the most reported stories everyday say that kind of pizza man tasered it and how about you? I have been busy at work at the bureau of investigative journalism.

We are doing a big project about homelessness and trying to count homeless deaths across the UK through the grim subject of visitors to winter there's just more names coming in every week, so I sadly at the minute.

Spend my days strolling through those names and logging them and digging into what's gone wrong and I'm a bit of a tip-off amboy.

Can we expect another series anytime soon? I am working on doing interviews for series 4 right now and hopefully get something out quite early on in the new year fantastic.

Go forward to it.

Let's go to our first story of the week.

Which is the fact that us cable news networks CNN has announced.

It is suing President Donald Trump after their white house correspondent you make

Costa at his hard pass revoked record your knickers off on this from the white house with the head can manhandle the female intern are in the process of trying to hold on just microphone the white House's now kind of abandoned this whole line of you know line of argument.

They had the first hearing on the lowest CNN vs.

Lighthouse and basically it seems to pull down to content or conduct.

What was the reason for a Costa espresso as being revoked the White House says they have complete discretion to revoke anybody's press pass a but let it definitely wasn't because he is a mouthpiece of evil liberals and CNN is claiming that basically this is just a kind of anti anti liberal witch hunter meddings grenade against because of their anti-trump reporting and a lot of their argument boils down to the fact that an email was sent out to the trump fundraising campaign in which they celebrated.

Costas press pass and same sentences calling CNN you know brainwashing liberal mouthpiece and say they're saying that by bringing those two things together they've made it obvious that this was a discriminatory decision by the Fox News of come out in support as well.

I haven't really interesting to see that in terms of these two opposite sides of the gulf that is the media in the US right now kind of joining together on the idea of freedom of speech and freedom of the press being cut paramount in this is as she is quite reassuring to see Fox News coming out on that issue, when it could have been spending a Boy by the same rules with no hand legal framework behind it does seem that from the white house is perspective.

They are right in saying that legally President Trump can refuse to speak to any reporter or bar any reports from the warehouse.

Talk about this probably any episode of the media podcast but do you think that this particular instance shows that relations are at an all-time low or as low as I can possibly go as far as trump and the press the Enemy of the people.

It's hard to know how low hiccups dangerous disable Facebook but I do think we're quite soon.

I feel like later today.

So I guess that will be something in terms of checks and balances on that relationship, but I do know I would like to be gym going back into that then next week to report.

I can't imagine him taking another question particularly.

Well.

I mean just taking little step back something that struck me recently was former Daily Show host Jon Stewart talking about the fact that trump Bates the Press And it appeals to Germans narcissism.

Didn't you got a point? I do I think there's that thing of kind of eating itself in that we get so fed up with the way that he's talking about the Liberal press that we ignore many other things I can let you know the

So many things in the trump government beyond trump himself that we certainly don't here over here in the UK and it's because there is this big Ferrari around these other elements that said I do think you know as I said this is dangerous precedent r form.

If you know you you start to attack the press the consequences that can have and the kind of slippage into a repealing rights that are so important to democracy debate about other policy issues does get tuned out because of the the airtime that's given over to this network feels important on a personal level of two journalists usually doesn't feel important to the average listener and then they just become another kind of bear in The Bear Pit and The Movie sing out your messages to get lost weight with Alec including maybe the public doesn't care too much.

Its straight out of balance game rule book that I mean to be optimistic.

You know she just saying about Fox News coming out and it could be the low point because that's certainly one organisation that the trump administration wouldn't want to hurt and Fire against them or he took him Steve Bannon let's move onto an exercise in which is the debate over with a broadcaster should be interviewing controversial figures.

This is after Arron banks appeared on the Andrew Marr Show and Sky News interview Tommy Robinson this week as Steve Bannon appeared at the news exchange conference to some outcry.

Do we think that this issue is gaining importance and it's right or wrong to criticize broadcasters for giving these controversial figures these platforms my first thought was you you know this is a classic example of the BBC being a bit too content as for saying good and thinking what we have to have these people because they represent another viewpoint when you know what the what's been said before.

With Nigel Farage you know what people said why is he allowed to be on so many BBC things when he represents a tiny minority of use so I kind of came in thinking all very few people agree with the likes of Tommy Robinson you know proportionately so why they have some time but actually the more I thought about it, then.

I thought that actually love people who don't share his views.

Do you feel quite passionately that he should have any time and that there's a kind of a danger that people could be pushed more towards extreme viewpoints who currently may be sitting in the kind of centre right if they see what you know what they say is as controversial commentators being pushed out by you know and mainstream centrist audible centre espresso, but he's like the central figure in a major story that he should clearly that he should be interviewed that's that's only my opinion.

I mean this is a decade is Gerry Adams in The Voice in Disguise know the details of people saying like that all these people should be platform.

I did notice a difference between the kind of false equivalence debates of of bringing somebody like now.

The Lawson on to talk about climate change and deny it without any kind of consequence or challenge to proper robust interviewing I guess that the concerns of people having a dangerous we know what we saw certainly seems to be going on at the news exchange conference is there people like Steve Bannon can use those platforms and just run away with you.

I didn't actually see the footage, but I was watching Twitter light up about how you know he was giving me interview of the runaround.

He was basically using every question as the other way and talk about other things and I guess that's the Dangerous a particularly in terms of live interviews as to if you give someone a platform and they then just spat off potentially hate speak to you whenever it is.

Do you have a responsibility as a broadcaster, but I do think you know what I want to hear what I am banks have to say for himself and Tommy Robinson Tommy Robinson has to save themselves.

I think they just need a good enough challenging interview and

Quality of the person interviewing that individual I think so and you know the way that it is framed and the way that if there is a counterpoint.

You know who you have to cancel counter.

It's in and make sure that this balancing is balancing act but I think it's really dangerous to say we just don't want to hear some people to use what was interesting about the Tommy Robinson IN petite case in particular with how he turned the the media control on its head because he has this enormous online following he posted his own unedited version of in the Sky version was that 8 minutes and he posted his unedited hour long version that he had one of his people record posted his Facebook page and basically posted the link to Ofcom encourage people to complain about sky and he did receive something like 2800 complaints which is you know it's quite a lot, but it's certainly you know it's not even as many as though they received over Kim Woodburn clash with Coleen Nolan on Loose Women say you know.

It was a really good example of how you know the power is shifting and Tommy Robinson can harness is enormous fanbase.

I mean a lot of them are not based in the UK so that does muddy the water slightly bit you know he can definitely harnesses force and greatness alternative narrative to the one that was seeing you know play out on the mainstream Media abroad by the very very miss that you know I do scientists viewpoints repugnant, but you can't think you really can't deny that he is a very savvy media manipulator and that he has actually been underestimated a lot.

I think broadcasters and generals asking to catch on a bit now, but certainly in the early days.

He was very much portray does this you know EDL leftover football hooligan kind of fuckboys seeing now is that he is extremely clever.

He is quite a comfortable chair Steve Bannon in that in that sense need to be interviewed people when they have such huge platforms of social media in terms of holding power to account if this.

Is a kind of power of potential power than that is the role of journalism and I guess you.

Hope as an interview that they can push themselves by their own petard by bringing them on but I do think it plays into the narrative that is being created about the Liberal elite Media if you don't bring them on as well and then that just fuels and disenfranchise is people further and feels that argument yet further so I am not sure there's much to gain from that.

It's just all about how you present it structure it and having somebody in a vicious and Ash somebody robust and nothing interview where to enter a bus some of those more ridiculous points surprised surprised.

It's lose Lose the BBC either way moving on our former deputy prime minister.

Nick Clegg is the new vice president of global affairs and communications at Facebook mate were you surprised by this appointments I mean yeah, but I don't tend to think about that much anymore.

Move you heard about David Cameron getting bored maybe this is their legs, but you know I guess it kinda makes sense with his connections in Europe in Parliament there in the European political scene that Facebook are you know they've had a tricky time of it and they do need somebody in their corner with the connections to smooth some of that through you know I cable clips record on getting things through or following through on promises, but clearly Facebook believe that he can have come back there corner in certain things in around tax or around and oversight in Europe he certainly well connected.

Isn't it? Also shows that they can reluctantly coming to embrace their status as a major political actor is this a bit of a poison chalice then because obviously as you as he said mate.

He's walking into her company which is.

Been wounded by a series of scandals BSC a fake news election meddling the data scandal that we saw with Cambridge analytica.

He's got a lot on his intro pill battle.

I think I don't know how much just having the right connections is going to be enough to get you out of that mess.

I think what we seen on Facebook is you know this kind of runaway snowballing success rates become something that nobody quite predicted it to be in and who knows where that will go and it's quite hard to think you know why firefighting what's happened behind you to think what the head as well.

So yeah, it certainly a challenge and he's he's trash talk Facebook in the past in the column for the evening Standard he said he found the Californian new world the touchy-feely culture of Facebook a little grating.

It was going to dress up quotes from his family history.

Not the way saying I'm ok baby.

Ok as supermarket chain Iceland is set to unleash a giant orangutan onto the streets of London in response to the benefits Christmas advert this is brilliant publicity know you can plan really a viral campaign like that.

You know it's kind of play biting hands in in a crowded market where they John Lewis's of this world always kind of take their the glory and it kind of worked out quite nicely fries and I'm for the message behind it.

I guess more importantly and that this band has meant that you know people are paying attention.

I know I certainly went and looked at it where I might not have them before so yeah, it kind of worked out who knows if there was some greater Machiavellian strategy behind that but they may have made it purposefully controversial to get in the Iceland Christmas advert.

They don't use palm oil products and their you know they've come in and said are we can't put on TV because it was bad because it has two 284 TV and She-Ra but it wasn't band clear cars to advise companies with the ads are going to be approved for broadcast said it probably won't but it wasn't because it was too as it wasn't because of people just country aren't ready to hear about deforestation being bad it was because it was originally a Greenpeace campaign and they just stripped of the Greenpeace logo snap the Iceland logo on and that was that was the actual you know kind of bureaucratic reason that that could probably wouldn't be approved for broadcast but they've managed to reset the narrative into this Harley they're trying to hide those lovely chargeable message from you and meet people have lived just the prison up and response which I can't really blame them.

You know what you're saying is bottle is APR Triumph keypad gone of the retention and good headlines.

But no I need it's obviously it's a good message and a normal people have seen it now by a social media then probably would have paid any attention to a billion people station to get on TV which is probably more people that would have seen it.

Had they what year have they been watching TV and taking notice of the Iceland advert any frustrating the I guess that people are directing their attention towards their putting on TV rather than the whole palm oil saying it would be nice if a million people sign something about palm oil in products and that is kind of things but no sent me in terms of the amount of tension.

It's got like being contrary.

I think if it had been cleared for broadcast and it been on TV now though.

It was always that sort of feeling.

You know when you see charity adverts.

You know when you're in a bad mood and go on I don't to be preached at right now.

I'm trying to eat my dinner but by framing it as this country of this controversial thing that I think it has can Energize people more than they would have if they just thought I look here we go another Christmas charity.

You know people who had that same effect.

The John Lewis advert Christmas advert Has Landed do you think it's going to be a bit overshadowed by their so it's going to take on its own momentum.

I haven't seen it yet.

It's rent in comparison to the zoo orangutan, Elton John 70s costume in going on but nothing in the way of actual beasts and quickly and the other CGI is really good.

It's like Elton John through the years, but then it's all ends on the messages by your kid a piano and a microphone Elton John I looked on the John Lewis website.

They don't sell pianos digital pianos back with more news in brief after this.

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Time for some media news in brief Rebecca and made are still with me and all-consuming monster.

That's how the Year editor-in-chief of the Daily Mirror describe the BBC News website do it as it's just another type of desert attacking the BBC CBBC as a broadcaster, and it doesn't really have any business becoming this Titan overwritten use that should be left to the press which I think there is a certain.

Yes, it is a certain argument be made especially when you particularly attacked clickbait new use such as their intense coverage of love Island and I think there's definitely not give it to be made for that.

I mean that's not there's no public interest justification ready for that.

That is just chasing critics, but I'm gonna obviously it's a bit of son of a slight of hand from him, because he's not really addressing the fact that the reason people go to BBC to read the news is because trust in the Press has been.

And you know you're not really recognising his own.

You know his own company's part in a raging at public trust in the present people don't read the BBC for any other reason than that people do tend to trust it more than other organisations and I think you know the newspapers and selves to ask to ask themselves.

Why that is it dominates the Business Insider you can see that the BBC is favoured in search results over a year commercial publishers and but we have to figure out a way around it and have to navigate the online environment with a BBC that is still very prominent in the BBC's not not going to I'm in there has been several reviews of BBC's online footprint and doesn't feel like they've been massively effective because we still got these arguments going on yeah, and it's kind of wide-reaching so what I mean.

Yeah.

I know when it comes to pay well as I mean, it's not just a

BBC Bitesize lot of outlets out, they're putting out content but you're right in terms of the algorithms pushing it to the top.

That's one thing.

I think it has a really impact in local news as well particularly with local papers who often have to come to cover their local websites with advertising that makes them particularly pleasant to read and it is kind of understandable however consumers news you might go to BBC Northampton rather than your local paper to find out what's going on there, but the consequences is there you know if there's no local reporters local newspapers underground.

That's a huge deficit in terms of local information coming in BBC has kind of try to address that with its local democracy reporters, but you know I think that is a problem in terms of the impact of giving away things that that could be um you know that that are vital element of what keeps a kind of news environment going financially viable for local papers as well.

So yeah, well, I guess the mirror worried.

I would.

More worrying what's more impactful is what's happening to the smaller papers that are getting kind of completely blown out of the water by the local recording the Guardian ounce at a million people have donated today journalism in the past 3 years is that is that the answer is hard to know what the answer is.

I think people are still grappling with it that certainly one model and it's quite interesting on a local level series similar things like the Bristol cable on a ferret working on similar models are kind of co-operative schemes or you no work if if everybody pays in that's potentially one model.

I think you know paywalls are another model it would take some coordination across the board for everyone to agree that this is the way forward and it would be interesting to see in item as a re education of the public or most needed.

That's quite slow process in terms of people saying well.

I'll just go to ladbible instead then or I'll just go to Facebook instead.

You know you have to kind of

Tattoo re educate people to see the value of news MBS a complex question.

I'm not sure I have the answer between Media in that sense.

You know some of the stuff that's been really attention-grabbing that BBC's done recently likes just started.

It's fake news initiative and completely unreadable these videos I can understand paps.

Why readers don't feel like they're a great place to go and experience news and it was an actual full-on movie trailer playing across the entire screen like behind the text to delete this white Boxer texting the whole rest as cream Match Attax players and Explosions and loud noises it was incredible to do you think we have look like online publishers.

They have to be smarter about advertising.

I'm not asking you to come up with his in the roofer.

I'm interested in a working in podcast to see advertisers kind of pivoting to that because of the ad blockers that you can put on websites and things people going like I'll hang on the FIFA Langley Dale looking at this trailer right.

It's actually just pissing them off is completely frustrating when you're trying to read something and you have to go through 12 quizzes and surveys in ok from newspapers to TV Sky is head of drama and mentor has join Netflix this week as their new and first London based drama boss.

This is a bit of a statement isn't it guys? Yeah, it's really exciting in terms of commitment to big budgets.

Hopefully dramas coming out of the UK yeah.

I was the actor in the UK think I'd be quite boys by the news and clearly going on the success of things like the Crown from the other kind of big-budget things that translated so well into the US market as well.

It's clearly recognition that they're there are brilliant programs to be major British dramas, pleading away.

I mean, she's done things like fortitude and tin star yeah, she's got a great reputation and TV industry is well-liked.

I can't I'm trying think I've written about TV firm for the best part of a decade I can't think of a online player scooping up a big TV exec like this time in the only other example is great aunt moving to apples the scope and the ambition of some of the series that she's commissioned have been that really sore pushing the limits of what you would see on you know I'm normal £2 or mainstream TV channels, and I think she's gonna be a greedy great Netflix likes it a lot of studies done stuff like Patrick Melrose stuff like that is basically if you ask someone that's seen it like they may well have told you that they think they sore on Netflix very much in the in the mould the kind of drama that they making the only thing that I would say that as well.

This is really good news for UK creative interactive production houses it might be.

Slightly putting the wind up the UK TV channels who are not going to be best pleased about more Netflix incursion into you already sufficiently winded Indian Army BBC TV Baltimore crystallized Netflix and Amazon saying that they've got an insatiable greed for data Gathering that's pretty strong stuff on the BBC but I guess I like this show that it's about more than data caching in at quite why they can I put in their money where their mouth is and I don't think you can criticize them for that if you are the BBC or other I guess this is behind the scenes are there also landed David Attenborough for our planet.

Did you guys know yes, they landed and he's going to be the voice of a new big natural history show on.

On Netflix which is again made by British producer so the Brit to do pretty well for a cells clearly as well, so hollybrook has been there paving the way for the British success so hot on the heels of Chris Evans departure from Radio 2 Simon Mayo and outs.

He's leaving his drivetime show to concentrate on other projects may what's the story here so it seems to be a kind of concern amongst some that Radio 2 kind of faltering and and losing its way and there was grey Radio Times article it can be explored some of the reasons that might be of cedars probably know one thing that's caused it, but this article was suggesting that the kind of Perfect Storm of issues around and pay transparency around Newcastle off, rules on and quotas of how much UK music you might have to play it.

She's round diversity my ball Kai

And an issues in management, I guess who have all stifles creativity.

You know some of that is complex side.

I'm not sure that you can blame everything on Pay transparency or a move towards diversity that seems like a kind of worrying we have to be this way or nothing else, but it does seem to be a kind of in flexibility of thought that means that im getting a bit stale.

Not sure if I leave is really excited about anything Radio 2 right now.

You know the fact that the controversy is there so many mentally popular veteran female DJs have replaced some immensely popular male DJs and no-one's really replaced anyone you know they've just been having just gets shuffled around the different times like this is what passes for controversy that you know that it's no wonder that younger people are moving away from listening to traditional broadcast radio because it's just the same line of people have nits become a thoroughfare you start off on Radio 1 and then eventually if you don't have any you know sex scandals.

You'll eventually get shunted up to a radiator and then probably end up in the early 11 slot talking about.

But you know this is think it's just such an insular world and there are 16 for the huge backlash against the drive time reshuffle any attempt to you know make even the most minor really and a bit scary things change.

It is not with an enormous push back from the listeners, but the radio 2 listeners are on the whole so devoted but the BBC is naturally very antsy about antagonising them in the way, they might not be for other audiences.

I don't know that it can't work at all, but I think what happened to the drive time thing is that it was just all done very awkwardly.

You know they've is Simon Mayo was seeing it from uniform.

What is read it seemed that he was kind of chosen cos they thought the only one that would basically put up with it and would be able to be quiet long enough to have a co-presenter and Jo Whiley is more of a kind of musical connoisseur and not really a natural fit for you know the kind of music that you're expected to play on drive time to the whole thing was just a bit awkward for everyone especially for Jo Whiley who ends up on the receiving end of some in o'prey Horrible abuse online I guess, in the background all of this is James pnau.

Used to working policy at the BBC has got no programming experience and is now running radio BBC do you think his hand might be in some of these or clumsy chair moving exercises that we're seeing or am I being nasty middle management system where there's just so many managers that share responsibility and so many decisions have to get signed off.

It's almost like you know designing a horse by committee and in more bad news for the sun presenters the national Audit Office and housing is weak, but about 800 BBC presenters could face investigation because of the way they arrange their tax affairs it must feel like your present at the BBC things are not easy at the moment know any times if it been this kind of bastian you no it in the UK market world market really you think that they would have their stuff together now.

There is just time for all media quiz are your challenges?

Remember as many of the podcast cliches identified by producer Alex Susan lachlan from transmission Media in Brooklyn as possible in under a minute Alex drop a bingo card with 20 classic podcast calling cards things all regular podcast listeners will recognise your challenge Raven Rebecca is to give me as many podcast troops as chosen by Alex as you can think of in 60 seconds 321 go aggressive laughter overly aggressive laughter.

I do little fighter much keyboard tapping in the background sound effects producer out into the field and using lots of atmospheric sound of birds tweeting.

Advertising I think that's OK with the square place is continuing our series on blah.

I'm have listened to so many podcast That the clichés that just just listen to my brain now.

Just part of your fingers.

Are we at the I've got that a331 to make a batter take it 3 weeks ago you ticked off some good ones.

I'm trying to think if there's any other any any any big ones that you missed.

Are we have this week on the pod? Didn't we and of course the obligatory squarespace add.

So what podcasts are you listening to you at the moment, but I'll this is might not already know about and listening to you one.

It's from howstuffworks called happy face and it's a series of.

Podcast about this this woman Melissa whose father with a serial killer and and basley about what it was like to go out with him.

He's now in that he was sentenced to life in prison.

He killed.

I think something I ate online women and basically about her life was like growing up with him and how so he was basically exposes serial killer when she was in her early 20s, so sad childhood memories of him and also she meets up with the son of one of the victims and I have very emotional conversation about their kind of shed shed winding experiences at the hands the same person.

It's really really atmospheric gripping stuff.

It's quite dark in places, but overall I connect has a kind of positive message about healing and forgiveness excetera.

How are you mate? I've just put my sister called out of fashion which is about the fashion industry talks about ethics in buying and things like that.

Like to really interesting things for somebody who doesn't follow fashion particularly interesting it is cos I'm interesting contextual staff and then another one called unfinished which is by a generous call Tom Bristow at the Eastern Daily Press which is a cold Case from Norfolk I think the classic case where the police are pretty sure they knew who murdered a young woman but for one reason or another didn't manage to get them on and it says yes, she's quite interesting to see how a local community in the UK recovers from that kind of thing in sand go back and dig into what happened brilliant ok.

That's it for today.

Thanks.

I guess made McClendon and Rebecca gillie.

If you like what we're up to here on the media podcast and want to help us.

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Chat with previous episode and get new episodes as soon as they're released by subscribing for free at our website that media podcast dot.com I'm Jake kanter at the producer is Rebecca Drysdale shareit the media podcast is a PPM production until next time goodbye potential by definition is the possibility of achieving more in the fast-paced world of digital advertising Oracle data cloud has built its Legacy on finding the signal through the noise on unlocking potential we bring together data and technology to help you better understand your audience where to best engage them and how to measure a tool to realise true potential Oracle data cloud web better outcomes begin visit Oracle data cloud.

Come to learn more.