Read this: Media Masters - Alison Phillips

Media Masters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game to hearing Canary Wharf London and at the offices of the Daily Mirror joined by the editor-in-chief Alison Phillips previously in charge of the Sunday Mirror and Sunday People she was also launched its with new day the short-lived newspaper in 2016.

She also leaves on addressing gender imbalance at mirror publisher reach heading up there winning together network and is this year's Society of editors popular columnist of the Year Alison thank you for joining me to appointed in March must have been incredibly proud moment for you.

How's it going? It's going really well.

I think I hope it's been a busy few months because after we've had reaches bought the Express as well.

She's been a lot of a lot of issues going on in terms the actual paper at the mirror.

I hope I feel that we're reaching a point of sustained confidence which is so important for a paper.

We've had some real 6.

Besson campaigns which I think is really a life blood and I think we managing to Energize the staff which is absolutely essential for a wealthy newspaper more managerial at the moment of the organisational challenges that you'll be dealing with cos he must as the leader of the business of a ditto you've got so many things you could be doing you've got to choose having an prioritise.

Yes, well Lloyd Embley is editor-in-chief of Reach so he is a time is taking our forms of all that management stuff.

I am trying to focus as much of my time and I possibly can on the actual paper because that's ultimately what matters and that's the bit.

I enjoy doing most as well, so that's I think the key at the moment because what we need to get the paper absolutely solid and confident and in and out there in people's minds and then I can sort of maybe leave some of the other stuff for other people to do because it's incredible brand I mean what the first ever.

I picked up as a kid was the Daily Mirror really amazing.

It's a fantastic part of national fabric.

It's what it's done over the years is truly amazing.

I never ceases Oddball people on this so what one wants favourite topics is that how went after the Titanic went down and there weren't enough lifeboats for the poorer people who have been steerage.

It was the mirror that campaigned to have lifeboats for every member of a ship that was going out to see so that was just the extraordinary sort of bit of social change which which the mirror LED really famous front page image of seal clubbing back in the early 60s was what sort of really lead the way in the attitudes towards fairtrade and then the mirror was also at the front of creating the World Wildlife on that's just someone and then this examples of how the Mirror has shaped this country and that's why I think its role as a brand and it's

It's it's an amazing it can be an amazing Force for good and that's what I think need to focus on.

Did you feel like I have sense of that Argos that kind of heritage that might weigh heavily on other people in one century new imports you got to make some changes, but you don't need it to be like all on the string of a tapestry little thing unravels.

You got to choose which bits to keep in which bits needed attention and I think so and in terms of did I feel like quite heavily I feel it very heavily however picture of you'll enjoy cuddling books and you read their the political history of the mirror and you see the role.

It has played and and and continuing to do that is vitally important and I think perhaps Now more than ever there is a real need for a popular left of Centre open minded too big Hearted

tabloid newspaper because the concern is that you've got a lot of papers that either have been on the right or shifting to the right but she's fine, but they're not out on the on this side of the Debate you've got the concern is that the that presses really just becoming much more for the chattering, Islington classes and their the broadsheet readers guardian readers and also who is creating news for people who haven't got university education who who haven't got much time you got very busy life because they're working and I've got kids and I've got or you know or they just haven't got the time in their life to be reading you know 2000 words on on something rubber who want popular news done an interesting accessible fashion but with a

Reasonableness and a sense of social conscience, so that's what I just said I sound a bit pompous, but I don't think you'll never underestimate the importance of the Daily Mirror international democracy left of Centre left-leaning working people that want to read a tabloid is is an underserved market massively, so that's why it's so important.

Not only do we do what we do every day, but we're kinda noisia about it and we make sure people are coming to us and that is our responsibility.

It's not enough so well.

We created these everyday.

We got to create that newspaper and then we'll go to get into people's hands and going to get into people's heads.

Obviously you working today in the newspaper on a daily basis getting out the door, but when you can a reflecting and staring in right direction and working on the newspaper which direction.

Are you going to take him? What changes are you going to make what is can a top of your to-do list in the short to medium term time?

We need to pay as much attention as we can to breaking exclusive stories and creating a news agenda is not good enough anymore.

Just to to rely on news of the day when that news the day is already everywhere everybody knows the top line of every story so you're either giving them something additional some interpretations some analysis something behind the scenes which a lot of our readers what they want sort of complicated issues around brexit explained in an accessible fashion, so you either doing that you're giving them greater depth that story or you're creating new stories, so we have to do that if we are to survive and it's your kind of Daily Mirror view on brexit because of these issues cut across families cut across political parties.

I've got many left the friends are remainers and son letter brexit is corbyn's.

Obviously are a brexiteer dressed up as a remainer you know.

How do you have a Daily Mirror for you on that because in Ascension have.

Baby cameras from that the minute you come out on one side and going to alienate the other readers voted just about to remain the buy a fairly small margin and we were very anxious that we didn't want to fall into this narrative that we seen elsewhere where people who voted to leave were some had demonized as racist or stupid or sort of Parochial so we understand what I feel.

We really understand why a lot of people do vote to leave and you can get along debates about whether that was reality they were voting on whether it was in motion in a way.

That's almost irrelevant because that is why they voted and now as we go through the brexit negotiations.

I think we have to keep those ideas for front of those feelings at the forefront of and mind but that is why they voted and we respect that.

We are now so they think he ok.

So what would a second vote mean? I am very nervous about second vote only I think that all the forces that we seen in recent years months and years around populism Are fuelled by when people feel they're ignored and St all the people that voted they wanted to leave that actually that may be that isn't gonna happen after all I think could have devastating impacts and III completely accept that you know lower rate of GDP and rest have devastating impacts but perhaps in the long-term not so great as telling people you don't want their input into a democracy.

You can have all the griefer going out your my rule is never go back and try to get back into a nightclub that the band has already throw you out.

What is that? How do you actually get the paper out then? What is a typical day? Are you inherit like the crack of sparrow and you do 25 hours a day of you.

No smoke filled room.

Do with Union printing bosses stranocum up with clichés hotel? I deleted it is clean it it it is written so I would normally still start looking at papers as their first thing in the morning for a lift home.

Come out of ideas.

I'll get in touch with unused exiled you think she doing this particular kebab or they'll be saying this is happening so is a constant and we'll do something about working there.

It is a great family to a lot of people been here for a long time and sweet lot of us have grown up to get it really until is a constant source of you be texting each other although it is about rubbish tries.

Do that and then and then I take my children to school and then I come into work and then we should I get things for the moving and then have conference about 11:30 and that sort of start doing the planks together for the day and then there's this frequently meetings as always seems to be meeting about summer.

But I think a lot of what I'm trying to do as well is placed a lot of emphasis on story creation campaign creation and that requires time and a headspace which is Which is tricky because you know we've lost a lot of people here over the years and we're almost newspapers in Venice what you have to do is work out.

OK how do we create the time in the day to be creative and interesting because you can in this job as I getting almost any job fall into a hamster.

We're just getting through the day getting the paper out, but unless you have the time and the energy to look up and think like this is where we should be going then then you will start to create a fairly mundane paper that what's conference like then at 11:30.

I do you how do you say what's your what's your management style defrost a place at people like Paul Davies to do?

Informal I don't know we still go round the table never have their lists and they read them all out.

I don't I haven't done the shouting and swearing style of management.

I've only been a few months.

He had been on the wrong end of that although it does have benefits because then it's cleared what's required of you from the 80s isn't interested.

She has some merit in discipline.

I would never want to get to a stage where people aren't functioning to therefore.

I think sometimes nowadays, they can be given a bit we should be to wishy washy.

I think it's very similar to bringing up kids and they're gonna be quite clear what your expectations are that doesn't really needed to be done by shouting carrot and stick or the Threat of the state that what you require and that if they don't meet that expectation then they will be beaten.

Express that disappointed to beating them but you also have a website you know that in a sense that there's a never enter it, so is there still a structure and a rhythm to the day we've got to 11:30 so far is a conference there is there is very much of them to print and we have another comforter 4:30 at which point will go through any updates in the Day by that point we kind of closing in a mod with ink splashes going to be but then throughout the day stories may be breaking online so at the mirror.

We all sit together and we work collaboratively and some areas there are people working across both but there is still some levels of Separation as well, so stories may be broken online but some sushi healthy exclusive than the internet never stops that always goes along but together decent paper out.

You still need to have structure because the processes in place to ensure that it is it's right.

At the end of the day that you mention some of the campaigns that you did before I'm including mirrors is known and well respected around the world for its campaigning.

How do you decide what you going to campaign on I mean obviously the Titanic sinks.

It's presented itself as I do think that is the answer to wait for a guy to happen in the hardest campaign the ones where I think I need to wait for the nicest right.

We must campaign on that something because if you're slightly out of kilter with the national mood.

It's going to be like rowing a boat uphill.

Where is the ones we had real life so this your big success has been changed the law for Life campaign which was were on organ donations have people have to opt out of their organs been donated rather than opting in and that have been sort of going on for a couple of years, but just didn't really seem to be sticking in the national mine and then I think we got real successful head little boy Max Johnson up in who has been treated up a new car.

It was desperately needed a new heart and he became the face of the campaign and really it's just by making that commitment to keep putting it in a paper day after day after day that it does to resonate and we had we're all a Party Conference last year and we had a real success in terms of persuading the merits of that campaign to the leadership.

Jeremy Corbyn mention that his speech and then the following week Theresa May meditate her speech at Tory Party Conference and now hopefully by the end of the year it may well be legislation that is incredible.

Yeah.

It's great that isn't it? That's really rather.

Just get the paper must be proud of that a state the obvious that that's the whole I mean that was a campaign that have been on the go for quite some time here and I know it's a bit of a cleito takes team effort but absolutely necessary.

Regent reporter in the Northeast was did that store again and again and again here Andy Gregory who was our health as an hour applets closer kept coming back to and cat applying pressure but Kevin maguire's got my health was a lot of things in newsdesk, which of the unsung heroes big venues rooms in at they're the ones that can't see driving people on there the ones with the sticks that made that happen and the backbench you can give me a prominence in the paper.

So it's all very well editors driving up and down the office saying this that the other thing but unless they get buy-in for an idea and actually is a good idea because not a good idea them.

You'll never get here for it then that's the only way is going to really work a lot of the job.

I think he's about it's a hearts and minds think it's about getting people to share the Vision you mentioned earlier about the acquisition of The Express and they're all the kind of corporate transition.

They've been through.

How did all that come about did did it some of your executives get together just think Jonah Richard Desmond just isn't rich in her phone and pleasant enough already.

Let's give him.

More money and let's rebrand as reach because when it when he goes rerun his reach you and I don't mean this disrespectfully what reminds me of the Alan Partridge film where the radio station becomes ship at home, so I think this really what you can refuse have given a rude.

I've just been speaking to Richard there's nothing for quite a while.

I was involved in my paygrade Originals now shareholder with us as well.

It's actually very nice man, so I think it's it's going to be good for it.

Really is going to be good for us because I mean everybody knows that prints sales are going down and we need to think that consolidation and we need to think about new ways that we couldn't keep breaking stories are having the money to keep breaking stories and to keep running the news agenda, and that's a difficult challenge isn't it to do more frankly with less with few people it is and I think you.

Either try to do the same as you've always done with your people and just driving into the ground or you have to think about how you can do things differently a differently doesn't always mean worse which I think is sometimes gives natural assumption.

It's just differently and it's I think for that to succeed you've got to be able to give the staff a really clear Focus about what you didn't see him.

What matters and not to bother himself so much about stuff that doesn't really matter so when you think of a typical mirror reader are there physically holding a copy of the paper are they looking at the website? Is it might I have the app on my phone.

I don't buy The Mirror paper.

Copy of having 4 years but I am a regular mirror reading.

It's all via my app.

That's what people come in different touchpoints.

Don't know how do I took it with a brand yes and so our online reader is slightly younger the bulk of the content created by everybody here is done predominately for with that print reader in my

That's not to say it's not of interest for other people but I think we have to return the strength of the mirror brand in print because that's the that's the kind of the route and then from that route.

You have fat content going into people reading it online but then there is other content that joins the online offering and which might not be so decor print mirror because we it's like a diffusion brand.

I guess will there always be a paper.

Copy of the will of the paper's editor The Independent and he's made quite a success of taking online really lifted close the printing presses that maintained that that readership and it seems to be a reasonably well, I think it's more problematic for tabloid papers because some of the lighter end which you need to create the overall offering of a tabloid people might not necessarily want to pay for and that's the pass be used.

Do with digital is been paying for obviously so I think the print I think the print version the mirror will be around yes, because I think it off as something as we said earlier that no one else is offering because nobody really seems to have really truly nail the whole paywall thing.

How do you monetize online when you guys are you have a website free at the point of use the ft is bounded a bullet-proof paywall so's the times.

You know other I subscribe to certain magazines and read others wear lovely B34 articles for free and then then it's cough up some I think it's really tricky and it is tricky.

It is tricky for a tabloid mass-market popular paper.

It's a far easier.

If you're creating the New Statesman or something we've got very defined audience but I mean clearly it's it's it in the current form.

It's very difficult to monetize but you know having said that the mirror is online it's doing well.

No, it really is because we got all the regional titles as well it adds up to a huge amount of traffic.

So why is it doing well then because I think in terms of the content that's the interesting of the still vast numbers of people out there who want popular journalism they don't it? They are the Massachusetts really it's still only quite a small minority of people who are interested in or got the time or the attention to read what the broadsheets are offering and somehow in the national debate that gets completely overlooked because all people in that national Debate and I was reading the broadsheets.

I enjoy reading the mirror and after I finish reading it.

I feel quite positive and mice have read a miserable story obviously but in terms of the editorial but when I when I read the male actually come away feeling a bit dirty willy because it has a sneering slightly misogynist judgemental negative tone really which clearly works for them commercially but I mean you guys don't have that done at all and you think that that's an important differentiation as well in terms of the tone of.

You putting absolutely the lifeblood of what we do, so we would never use a picture of somebody imprints a look at state her or dress that feeling up which is what they may do and we would hope I would hope that we never print anything which is racist homophobic misogynist all those other things because that's not to our readers are vast numbers the country aren't that like that either and they don't want to be a part of that and I think again a slight concern post-brexit is there is a mood amongst some some some of the swords of elite the actually the the masses are a little bit bigger tea is a little bit Zelda a little bit unkind is excising women lost because they've been paid on that basis.

I think I think that about the media as well and so therefore.

Media has to represent that and of course there are people who are the only have bits of that in them, but there's already that don't have those bits of them and there's a lot of them who find their home in the mirror.

Can you get is a bit of a kind of class issue in so far as you make you enter the Titanic earlier that they think mirror readers steerage people and you know they're cleverer, but they certainly not relevant in Morriston but that they're not there to be engaged with in a constructive way because I mean obviously that's deeply offensive in patronising think the one that continues that's quite dangerous.

Cos you get a lot of people who feel very un representatives and I'm listening to and therefore it is vital that we don't just inform and chat and and champion those people are paper but we enable their voices and their views to be heard.

How does it work in terms of the mirrors approach engaging with the Labour Party because obviously with the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn he's got hundreds of thousands of new members that attracted to that kind of much more strongly left of centre of the night say I am and there's people like me that feel a little bit abandoned.

Do you think of split is coming and how do you actually engage with the fact that there's this now to sort of Labour Party audiences.

I think the first thing I was keep up front centre of mind is that alright? Government is bad for our readers because they've been on the wrong end of austerity now for 10 years and the concern about in a post-brexit world what that's going to make for their jobs and their conditions and their families.

You know we've got constantly having letters and calls from readers who are worried about their kids schools teaching assistants been got rid of you know not enough books not enough toilet paper with head and then the NHS we come back to x again because that is continuously amazing scents, so that first point is that Tories are gonna help our readers and that'll a bag of.

Would help our readers in terms of that split within the Labour Party there are clearly issues that divide the two side of the party but they still an awful lot that Unites them as well and that although I am completely accept this summer and it has been really bad been lost your DPI still held at this.

Hope that they can actually come back from that cos you know if you recall after they are all the front bench resignations WhatsApp to autumn's.

Go now.

They came back into an uneasy truce from then and I think they can do that again and I think.

Because a lot of what Jeremy Corbyn is saying the actual policies really appeal to a lot of our readers things like he starts on the railways and anti-austerity.

There's a lot of good sense there and it's it's a lot of things that I know are appealing to people on the doorsteps in the constituencies even of the the right that the more sort of Labour MPs on on the writer of The Party so I don't think it's all is lost at all, but I think both sides need to take some big grown-up decisions about how they can put those those real bad difficulties behind and move forward with his very strong very vociferous criticisms of the policies of his really government for example.

I'm not anti Israel anti Jewish people agree with them on the policies and the criticisms that he's made, but it seems he's got wrapped up in a completely different side sure yet about whether the parties anti-semitic and how is he allowed that because

Percentage lost an opportunity to make some legitimate criticism by people just seen what you on here an antisemite anyway, what's going on? And I think they got to find a way back out of that and the way out of the situation like that isn't as love hunker down for the defences up.

It's to actually over the doors and try and re-engage and just focus on policy.

What matters to a labour voter or a mirror reader in Rochdale that's the thing keep that your front of your mind and then and then work for from her and it seems to me that this to just an issue on professionalism of the operation.

I mean when Tony was trying to become Prime Minister Peter Mandelson had a unit of the rapid rebuttal units of the tires without a press release and they're gonna triple National Insurance and rather than letting that take root and Fester with into a 30 minutes.

Are we are we are is because everything came to slick to professional and the management of politics is a lot of I think what's turned a lot of Ordinary People away from any sense that they just in it for their career there in it for themselves and actually there is something to be said for a bit of reality of authenticity a bit of that.

I've just trying to have real real people doing the job.

It's one of the reasons why I think Donald Trump does someone on social media with his bare something office I oppose the president and he's a horrible blog etc, but I can see why people feel it got a meaningful connection with him because it that is the real him on Twitter what's an all spelling mistakes if he's angry you can tell me it's not that kind of over polished over sponge thing which people are clearly rebelling against it's a complicated thing is because at the same at 101 hand you've got a real Desire for authenticity which should I think he's absolutely what Jeremy Corbyn offers?

We offered at the same time we're also moving to a time where truth doesn't seem to have the weight that it wants did have so it women and daughter of sleeping at the greatest example of that, but is that a man who is very comfortable dissembling all time and and who knows what's going on with somebody's to eat, but the perception is one of authenticity and yet as you just said that the reality is that it is not based on a shared actual be something you and I might disagree on whether the railways need to be re nationalise actually insured but at least we could have me on the number of trains that run between Kings Cross and Edinburgh because that's a fact and where's he wanted a new in 22.

They are and of course that doesn't matter that we can't even agree on the facts of the situation now.

I mean that's really concerned.

I think that's that worries me as well.

I think about Boris Johnson as well.

I think that's that's the greatest concern there is that you've got a man who's not overly concern.

Buy fact and he used to be not so long ago that that a cabinet Minister or anybody in a position of authority who who wobbled off from the fact.

He much wood would stand down or there will be some former national outrage was admitted liar when there's that very famous interview with Eddie Mair on the on the Andrew Marr Show where you said you had admitted lying Michael Howard fired if I like you can't deny it you cheating on your wife.

You don't lose various things people.

Just got to set up yet.

He's got his thought a lot about in recent because how do you how do you say to readers Boris isn't Boris by his supporters is a liar and a cheat without them thinking establishment.

It's the Witcher courses around brexit actually.

He's the establishment not you, did Elizabeth establishment.

But has managed to paint himself as an anti-establishment character and is exactly the same with Boris so I think that's so I think the answer to this is you we need like a popular Alexa what people like about people like trump and Boris and Jeremy Corbyn is there is a sense they say what they think you get what you see the reality that might be something quite different, but that's the sense because they talk like normal people take back to peace around some point.

That's what people hated about glaring spotlight Peter Mandelson the whole blairite project unravel itself because it just was all too slick so so I think what the left needs both in print and in politics is a sense that we understand real people's lives.

We talk like they do we do the things they do we shop in the shops.

They shop obviously you know I'm sitting here now in Canary Wharf tower.

So I can't I can't.

Pretend that that is exactly my life, but what I can do is ensure that have enough people around me and then we've got quite a few people still work across the country.

I try to talk to them as much as I can answer that we're getting a real sense of what normal people a feeling and thinking and that's what we need so that's how you counter those populous on the right is by being popular on the left because you have you personally have a better special specially privileged position in this if we're gonna have a resurgent left of centre that populist and led by the masses if I was if I was doing a Level politics had a blank sheet of paper in from everything in who were there going to be the key players come the Revolution the editor of The Daily Mirror is clearly gonna be someone who can bring a following and Andy certainly be key to getting that message out.

You do feel that sense of responsibility is to create news.

Explain use but certainly a roll on the left.

I think is important because it was in the best interest of our readers know that's not the some of our readers come the next election will will will sort of struggle with who to vote for and so we need a government that's good for our readers.

You lead a group addressing gender inequality within reach overall and but you must look around but you must feel it again you look around all the Editors of the most of the other papers and they're all blokes barely got Victoria Newton on a summer Sunday you've got everything you've got caffeine on the Guardian it's not as good as it should be but it's better that has been in the past.

I think what we need to do, but obviously more women editors would be great, but I think what's even have more important is more women in the middle.

Area so you got able to promote yes got a pool in that area who are the people actually shape of the dates they content and who create the news list to create features listed pictures latest and the who have their voices heard in conference and then we've got a long way to go on that here.

I mean we've got similar difficulties here as I think lots of industries having a gender balance when people are starting out in their careers and then quite often.

It's post parenthood that we have lost swimming and it's what you do to encourage those women to stay after her children and how you then encourage a culture where by everyone has the ability to fulfill her potential is historically a lot of Loki environment.

Isn't it late Night drink a tiring?

Women have had to be a certain type of woman to get the top.

Where is men a lot of just had to carry on turning up and I think that's the Difference and we put an awful lot of hoops in rings for women to have to crawl through when the key to my moderate success of just turning up so I think that's why I buy a level playing field cos I don't think anybody goes out of their way to to make it harder for women to succeed but but you only have to look at the numbers 2 to see that with we're not really a gender equality, but it's in your commercial interested in that as well because you know shock horror winning read newspapers as well a lot of things absolutely good jenus.

Is it you should be able to empathize with all sorts different people all sorts of different walks of life, so I'm not saying that men can spot a good feature that I wouldn't mind adjusted or vice versa.

But I think healthy creative environment has been from all different types of walks of life and you know there's a lot of talk about diversity now and we need to think about true diversity in men women.

I think we need to have the media generally has an issue around not enough working class people so that there's there's an awful on their to be truly creative an interesting rather than just a lot of people recycling ideas.

They've seen other people that look a lot like them.

Come up with previously could you tell us a little bit about your career? Did you always want to be a journalist? I know that you've been deputy editor-in-chief of the Daily Mirror this Sunday Mirror in the Sunday People in the canteen here watching this building.

I actually think this sounds so my dad worked on the railways.

And other I used to work a lot of Sundays are you serious with a 12-hour Sundays and he used to come home at night and it has a big bag is work and he would have every single Sunday newspaper in it because you know people who's leaving on the train stay there, so you don't go through picking them all up and saw your level whole lot of from these the world through to this Sunday Times and it was a smell about those papers then.

I'm sure they put more in than they do now days.

They were black and dirty and smelly are but there was a real sense of of them and and I just used to like looking at them touching moment I can remember our local newspaper.

I would be drawing on it and saying I love that picture should be here all this that should be like that.

So so that there was no journey family or anything so you already doing page layout at 8 years old.

Newspaper did you not that point you wanted to be a journalist? I'm gonna do this traditional regional newspapers agency better magazine funny people they know what I mean now when you look back.

It seems to be we have a lot of this week with I guess where they say.

We're looking back.

It.

Just seems to be a sequence of the Russians but actually the reality is the often it's a bit of luck erroneous serendipitous parent incredibly fortunate in that.

I just love doing it.

I really love it.

I love stories and I love I mean when you think about being in a litre is literally the best job in the world and you come you come into work in the morning.

You have a chat with people around you about stuff as interesting and already see that in the papers.

We have to do the work and then I sit in a room.

I'm surrounded by really smart people who say well.

This this this this this this this and I say what I think would do this Daniel that's literally you are like a kid in a sweet shop picking out your favourite bit was George Bush when he is President he wants at the job of president was to be the decider was mocked for that, but I remember thinking that im actually that is leadership of a group of people put something to you.

So when you are that kid in the sweet shop.

You can't have to choose this week and you got to be able to empathize with people that there's the stories are sweets that you're choosing are the ones that they say to interested in what are the perks of the job and what are the negative stuff? Cos it can't be nice.

You know if a column is storage in this isn't working out and that you have to have fire them.

I mean that's my cousin for anyone get the best ticket to the Opera you go and say I want to go ready to business class because I'm down there to the Daily Mirror dancing.

No, we don't get so all those kind of Perks I think of faded away and things like that used to be drivers for the Editors East get anymore, but also I think that's a good thing.

I don't have an office I sit on the floor.

It's all a bit so I've just realised I don't want to be the editor of a newspaper anymore.

I want to be the editor of a newspaper in the 70s.

So no, it's not it's not like it's not like that because I think also it's really important if you are really trying to have some understanding to your readers lives.

There is some merit in trying to read your life as close to their lives as possible.

What will the Daily Mirror look like SE23 years now and brighter and it will be more comments.

More analysis more q&as more explanation more debate everything we do we need to reach a point where buy everything we do is taking the story beyond just the story you right there that when she wedgwoods reads the 10 news headlines when I get in.

I actually already know what he's going to say I'm looking for something different and it's the same when I read the Daily Mirror other times however, it is.

I'm on the train.

I actually of the 10 stars going to be present in our dinner later, then.

I'm just looking for some extra information is actually unusual to to read a newspaper now and be and have a wholly new store in they often come from the regions using a strong regional coverage.

Yes, so I think that's it, so the emphasis is on breaking stories the analysis what's behind the story if you don't really ticky the Rose two boxes you sort of really not bringing much needed to the party and with weed so with reduced staff which we have of said we need people who.

Can do one of those things break stories or create additional content about an existing story we have a lot of aspiring journalists and students that listen to This podcast and and they're ambitious and some of these will be just finishing a degree or just studying and nothing I want to be headed to the Daily Mirror for the 10:15 20 years from now.

What advice would you give them listening to this right now how to how did they become your successive to have got to love and use so love and uses what happens to people is lovely is having an interest in people's lives.

It's being able to do what you're doing now and have a conversation keep asking questions engage you what the answers are sufficiently to ask the next question so there's a lot of people say to me.

All.

I want to be a journalist, but I think that I think maybe they watch too much sex in the City at an early age and they think that sitting in a room writing about themselves.

It's not it's about writing about other people's lives and enabling those other.

People's voices to be heard and I think if you really love doing that I really loved it.

If you really love writing and obituary or I will use to do weddings when I was on a weekly paper and you can find those interesting because you're actually interested in other people and their lives then you can be a great journalist.

If not you're probably in the wrong job at the was a rumour that the producers of the TV show the BBC TV show The press came and had a look round here for a bit of background a bit of colour.

Is that true or when did you recognise that we hadn't seen the show posters it one of them's got big Murano which is exactly the same as the one in the office which is of here in the about the 1960s with that when the Queen came to visit and beyond that the actual storyline of the day.

It's not half as much fun as it is here and we laugh all the time, but this is better here than in the fictionalized version.

Nobody inconsistencies bettinsoli cliches, but it was amusing jealous on Twitter picking holes without we would never do that thing was that they're all just took the cell therapy seriously, so what is a good day then last couple of questions and you know what what what would be a really enjoyable heavy was any to what what would they? Would there be some breaking news in or out? What will be a bad day every great day is we've got a really good breaking story or we've got a great exclusive like we have three days last week from Russell Myers investigations editor who was in North Korea fantastic as we splashed Reddit 18 months to set up and globally impactful genuinely meet people take out the civil take notice and then you got that new turn inside you've got an exclusive interview with one of dancers from Strictly or something.

That's what tabloid newspapers are about all human life is here and we loved it and we don't sneary about it.

We don't come to things were.

The Dark Heart we come with with an openness and an n a bit of fun and because actually I think that is our readers lies, although.

There's a so much emphasis about the dreadful stuff in the world the most readers if they're ok and the kids are fit and healthy and they got money coming at the end of the month.

You know and they and they are getting a week in the Sun that life is good life is good and they have a laugh and there is so much emphasis on the dark that but I think it's our role to magnify the light she brings me to one of the final questions was about new day because I was one of the people actually bought it as I wanted it to succeed and made sure I found it wasn't there and it was to see whether there could be a last throw of the dice really for print only product.

It wasn't even just that for me was the tone of it it was upbeat it was an Outwood

Forward-looking not beating a shallow where I am and I bought into the hole, but you know raison d'etre for it and even though it didn't but you could sit failed.

I actually really appreciate the boldness of it because that's true leadership is actually ability to risk failure.

Yeah, it was good that it had a short lifespan, but it was good that after I think it's 10 weeks.

The plug was pulled because they affect the experiment of failed and when you can make arguments around distribution and all rest of it, but it but I think what was interesting was a lot of lessons learnt from it and I think that but but what was really interesting was the bonds that We Created with the readers know I don't know whether that was because it was a new products on the market, but it was extraordinary in there was a real sense from those readers that we really understood their lives and that we were giving them something.

They haven't been out to get anywhere else.

And I think part of it is either I'm not would never go down the road of her that Hugh Edwards good news type thing but I think there is a lot to be said if you are truly trying to reflect your reader's lies, you have to reflect the optimism and the ambition of those lives as well as the the other stuff as well.

What's next for you.

I am obviously accept the stop-start of the answer it as you go to be added to the mirror for the next 20 years, but what will come next will they drag you out of here kicking and screaming where you going to go to the male? God? I definitely less evil Amy Jo dctc something to Costco weeks now.

It's been a net 15% reduction in evil well, and it certainly am I don't know quite a few all they really think about the changes stance on brexit.

I think someone's porridge, Frankie

I would be really struggling to find a place to go to after this because I've never wanted to go to broadsheet have no desire to go to broadsheet and there's no other tableau like a goatee so I think I'm gonna have to try and we out here as long as possible, so you're gonna have to like for you.

Don't even have enough is enough to like to fortify your office Americans that take into the woods to take on the Federal Government for them.

Yes, I think I was just have to sort of glue my feet to the floor.

That's that's less violent wearing a green.

It's been a pleasure speaking to you.

Thank you for your time at right angles podcast in association with big things Media