Read this: Media Masters - Carl Swanson

Media matters with Paul Blanchard

welcome to media Masters a series of one-to-one interviews with people at the top of the media game today.

I'm here in New York and John by Carl Swanson editor-at-large of New York magazine during his 14 years then he's been senior editor news editor and Culture editor he's been involved with vulture.com their art and Culture sister website and a News website the Daily intelligencer.

He's also played a key role in shaping their shift toward being an award-winning digital media company can't thank you Donna mate.

You're having me rollin' compasses New York magazine vulture the cut website.

How do you break it down on a daily basis, if it if there was a kind of pie chart of how you tuna spent your time? What would what would be the pieces of the pipe kind of depends on what's needed? I mean the magazine organiser different pace obviously because the specially now that we're every other week instead of being a Weekly magazine on which it was from us in time.

I was there this product for longer than more intense of them or silver usually when I will do with the with when I'm working on the other on the websites are the Titanic come in.

Cos there's something didn't didn't get help on or because I have an idea that I'm sort of perfect the sort of you don't make sure it happens, so it's kind of how this carnival how it works so you reacting to the value Consulting in working strategy, or is it writing editing all of that all depends on on what's happening? I mean you just sometimes you like the at the daily intelligencer has is basically a series of of of Commerce as well, as is as well as some sort of news summary you know kind of aggregation with attitude and I'm ugly involving that not at this point arm.

I was one point but I'm not I'm not really now so I can about her.

It's on it's on now, so I will come in if there's a project that needs you know outside of those at the start of the receipt of Liberia save intensive you know metabolism.

I will come x coming in healthy level of that same thing with the universe Elizabeth Hurley Weir was involved in an effort to serve increase the amount of her or coverage that we did and after while we're thinking about all you know could we actually run like a step.

Heart website deserves you know an end and in the end actually didn't have the scale that we needed but there was something that you know something else.

I was involved in it is interesting because New York magazine unlike I think a lot of places there has only has 4 of a legacy publication and then they try to solve come up with as much is a digital content that can much more often has it will never fit within within the printer location what we did and we made a very intentional decision to do this is to create separate organisation several brands and Culture etc etc.

What are the same time the magazine? Is is sort of the best of in some ways that I mean.

I am doing everyday for years.

I absolutely love it writes somethings you do a project.

It will a bigger project you.

Will it ends up in friend it also has a life online.

Lol you know that I think many people like you write something every time it will end up on the car that people have no idea that also appear as another tagline if they were evaluated in the print publication.

You'll sort it.

It's a very.

V&A Museum in the working for all of these different organizations within the organisation and some of it isn't up you know in the print magazine, but it isn't this really have to a course but the group as a whole took an interesting approach to the challenge that digital presented because you know you had Me Up magazine.

You could have just had New York magazine.com and just have it an online version get Netflix and so on but creating these different brands within it it in their own right.

That's quite quite anything to do.

It was only a look back at the history of our website and and I having the long enough for marine wind wind before these these other websites existed.

You know it was there is a place to look for restaurant is a bird local website and also seriously it had a lot of traffic was a fashion shows like slideshows of Lucknow India Fashion Week because at some point we just didn't put the stuff behind the paper pile up a while, but the people had some looking for a fashion shop from you know what a few years ago.

They would they will look it up and have they decided they would build these different separate digital brands.

With the assumption that little bit did if you're a fan of pop music you won't necessarily looked in your magazine as as a brand as a place to look for that.

I need the magazine the old magazine the magazine that they said Legacy isn't it? Had her protect your history.

I mean it was it came out of a picture of New York mayor of New York City and never ways you know in and it was sort of defining what it was a new city met but in this era of the diddler of so so if you need to sort of Peover to scale something like that something that really focus on with leaders restaurants, York City I'm leaving the you know that the server microcelebrity is a New York City wouldn't really make sense that said whatever micro celebrities is never in the Free World anything it's a pure thing because he definitely was a character in The Old near magazine using the cover.

It doesn't and you know it was just really amended spoking about the phone is very easy to get the phone.

You would call this woman Avon normal for to wear who is

Assistant we said we want to get Donald Trump on iPhone and and he would say whatever you needed to say and I think that's one of the reasons why a lot of New York City publications have known him really well didn't take his rise at seriously first because he doesn't like Kyle yards Donald Trump you know what it even mean but anyway that's that's kind of like that that that that that voice that comes about as in the ass now well.

I'm going to sleep on train with the second because I'm gonna try and try and have some structure to this other podcast yeah, but I wanted to talk about what you what you doing now and then and also your journey into magazine what you've done over the last 10 years what you doing now then what you're talking about that being assigned to various initiatives imagery of Kenneth Winston wolf in Pulp Fiction that you'll be troubleshooter.

Is that what you do more of editorial strategist now sometimes yes and sometimes also you know I'm somebody who can you know what you can.

We have a special issue.

We need to have you know.

I can come in and and and and help put it together.

I cannot you have a certain amount of institutional memory of a certain amount of an understanding of the tone.

Is it about what people expect? I'm so it involve bypass there an episode in in ways that I help with the with a certain amount of firearm on the team of people to come up with a cover lines instead of trying discuss with a good to have coverage for the for the magazine that is the kind of things that I am involved in any requests answer me like you got the ideal job within the whole company really because you've got your fingers and although the right pies.

Are you doing all the things that you could admit their exciting? I love people have the impression you had the support of the of the editor and of having a builder surf involved in a lot of different things it's it's it's kind of what you want to be in journalism for a man what you want to do.

This is to find out about things and instead of help other people understand things so it's been 14 years that you've been at the magazine test.

How are you came to join them and tell us the Giver

Some of the highlights and lowlights of the last 14 years well.

I came in because I was riding at the time of writing freelance and I started my career at the New York Observer and I used to write the media column for the New York Observer and I use to hassle catermasters to current of the editor-in-chief of of of New York Media so we can get to know each other so it's pouring over there over various things that I did he didn't want me to write about the nearest times in that kind of thing and at the time.

He was running the the Times magazine and then he had a broader oportfolio there and so we know when I was I was writing freelance for them in when he win win win the magazine was Bottom was taken over by the wash machines and they brought him in Ibiza collection fridge Avenue hard music as a as a contract writer and then I kind of the Weasel my way and is in as an editor and you know it says in this ultimately will I have to do you weigh in we doesn't work at all.

What does big what have you been going to what you been doing over the last 14 years with your windows Weekly magazine.

I was involved in the 4th of the book and that was sort of the quicker paste material and the stuff that would serve close on Friday you know to come on a Monday it was a time in end.

This is so so very long ago that you would actually look on a Monday morning for a magazine for information new information flashing for a solicitor strange, but you won't even look at a newspaper now for that.

You got to Twitter exactly or only to be with you.

All.

This you looking for a different take on it actually told you know that already it might what's their view on was having it's the lens.

I said Stephan you probably know there was involved in an increasingly became apparent that other date did that really wasn't going to be viable end and I was also for a while working on the contraception and that was interesting because one of the things that we were trying to do.

What is an adapt point vulture was going but it wasn't quite as robust as it is now we didn't save do all the things that we do and we certainly didn't do the things.

I've told to the grey Liam disagree that we do that now.

I mean cos it's a behemoth now.

It's massive Elvis online brands.

There is absolutely and hugely successful in terms of its adaptation to how things were paid for right now.

It's a strategic partnerships and yes secondary festival as well as soon as you know there are a couple of different ways you get advertising and and one of the way is it is important Direct sponsorship, UK visa sponsor definitely wants to be important with your brand as opposed to sort of you know going through sort of Google Irwin solicitors Carmarthen has advertising we don't worry decisions which is not as as as I'm just isn't as well.

So didn't really brilliant job about m into one of things that did I Began a process of which is now continued after after after my leaving was trying to say to figure out.

What is it?

What does the partnership between our online business and apprentices but you know? What does it mean in terms journalistic Lee like? What are you looking for to appear in print and on some of that will it was just like you know you you deal with Hollywood publicist and things like that and I do want to be impressed because so this is more prestigious still to this day so some of that we we still we saw work with you with you you can print in the magazine.

You know an end and that sort of also part of that that that game ultimately in the last 14 years other than that.

I think they've been really am just finding it really is hard to is hard to go biweekly.

It was hard to sort of realise change isn't actually changes the nature of everything doesn't it in some in some ways.

Yes and some ways no I mean in weight look the way it isn't different as we do close the magazine on you don't I'm Friday for the following.

So we still do have a very quick turnaround which is just like we will be closed anyway and it says around for two weeks or 3 weeks in a month.

It was a lot of Monthly magazine credibly long December the Christmas coverage even now in in July who can deliver then you thinking that has no relationship to be required materials in their aim to be better anything we see if that I mean.

I think that we received a sense that I did the magazine content marketing for encountered has become a more refined than it within hadn't previously the other thing is we always think now and print.

What will this do online? You know what how can we have make a national impact and I will tell you when I write something about it.

It's something that appears in print.

It doesn't matter this in French it doesn't get talked about until appears online the reality is is the Innocence while sprinting is more prestigious and that's what we advert.

Is in the park Commercial partners one that she doesn't have anywhere near the impact as you've said but until it's online because I mean where can you buy New York magazine physically, I mean largely Harry Manhattan in that certain usage and secure around the US I can get in London yes, but you can't get it on every new stand where's online you've got a huge huge readership absolute and in some of that now in terms of the LEGO people commenting on things that feeling it in the nearest Summers just because the people who comment comment online so you know in some ways you can do it is all about a close circle.

I cannot argue reading in friend absolutely but there isn't mechanism for the comment reading in French so um to make the letters to the editor.

Just like the old wiring examples of the above and other principal yes exactly but it is so we do.

Since of the physical magazine the cover is very important still because it does although it isn't something and it is really is there to sell on the newsstand like that used to be used to really worry about that now.

You were about that last but we went to do you want to make sure that it has upholstery like quality and has the sort of idea that you love.

This is what we're saying.

This is important as physical banner, ad we know we did this piece out not too long ago by Jonathan about the relationship between LEGO soda paddling Out in the relationship between trump and and and Putin and so we had the same as a famous artist name Barbara Carrera copper and arm and it you don't need it.

Really is know.

It's hard, but everywhere online and it sort of day to do a nice job, so there's something up the idea of of of the peace and you know an end that piece of crystalline.

Did you know that the week of the year of the summit and I can cause a certain amount of certain amount of trouble? I mean you guys know trump of old is she said earlier in this conversation.

And you must be particularly flabbergasted to see him you know in the White House yes, yeah, I think so, I mean I think it was surprising to see that im in he managed to and he's a master marketer.

It is it did he manage to sort of create an idea of himself and I think really in partnership with a lot of other media companies including Fox News that didn't make sense to people you know it really makes sense to listen.

I'm like my alarm 8 hours from the American South riding and we have a lot of relatives in Britain this you know who voted for trump.

You know he talks about in a way that for whatever reason they think is authentic and make sense to them and it's hard.

It's hard.

It's hard for someone like in one of the things that definitely the Mac has happened to magazine.

I'm in the last two arm me know last few years is that we become more partisan will become more a part of that particular bubble, but it's not necessarily party political.

This not Democrat or Republican because really you just standing up for your commander-in-chief who doesn't like doesn't give me his colleagues things old women with like a thing so yes, I'm absolutely a better things that are you visiting effect within the way that Arab civilian political culture works right now.

We should have taken aside.

He seems pretty uncultivated image of being an outsider cos if you think you know Manhattan billionaire social I think the Innocence is the ultimate kind of part of the establishment that he wants everything but you don't you talk to maybe your relatives.

They would say actually because he's got independent well that means he's not in hock to the deep state the big banks the big corporations.

There was certainly one of your arguments without you.

You haven't got your crystal ball with you, but what what's next in an inode lots of Democrats that didn't like Hillary for example and not well.

You know they're both as bad as each other that used to flabbergast meaning of Tanks

We did do you think that that the Democrats are going to get their act together? Do you think the people look maybe liked Hillary but didn't like her enough to go and vote for because they thought her her winning was a foregone conclusion did Hillary said herself in a book.

Did you think that ultimately does all of the various parts of society that were arguably complacent of have the joke that they need to get rid of that big time.

I don't know I mean I really don't know I don't know it.

Is it so hard to know what I'm thinking so quickly now that I think it will be impossible for it at this point first to know what's the word when it's all gone look like in November and March what is my next week? Yeah? I don't really know anything anymore.

Yes, I mean.

There's a lot of Distraction you does a lot of n n i think that you don't want to do things.

I think it's just been really interesting about you know but about the media.

Is it is it you can always have to be sort of like on Deck now.

You know what our and to take for example the car OK that was starter.

Gala thinking originally as a hickey Madara fashion coverage and then they said of an idea that it should also cover other women's issues 8 million unique visitors.

How long they release on the gender equality debate about to say yeah absolutely and become and that's been sorted with the sort of entry point.

I think I into you going to become a particular voice and I am abroad America and yes some of that it does appear in the magazine Rebecca traister.

Who is one of the leading voices and that he's helped define the terms of this discussion.

They were the ones that you didn't even so the smallest of scuffles like there is an organisation called the yeah, but it's supposed this this phenomenon called the City media men list and the person who wrote the Hat who came up with that and it was so defy calling out on demand immediate came forward on the typing because the car is it is a

Is as a political point of view and that's something that they quickly surprise me without watching that develop.

I didn't think the day.

Would they would do that, but they they cover I think that you know it's hard.

I think for women especially to see other things like Donald Trumps you know, it's turned out during the election and then they seemed like it anyway.

I really should have galvanized people you can have your either.

This is a really interesting new issue, when this is about the latest Kim Kardashian kerfuffle, but also have serious and thoughtful Full Coverage does the risk daughter that strategy arguably commercial I mean first of all I agree with you.

Write Claudia fantastic.

What you doing, but this is the kind of Taylor Swift strategy which did not get involved in politics.

Yes, yes, she's not challenged the president have you might be privately this other people doing at all.

She's going to do his alienate you not half of her audience all the families of a Robin's if she says anything right brings me to the point which is the opposite of that was his when did Dixie Chicks where did in about?

Lirik watch your mouth and your double.

Oh yes, yes, they lost huge amount of fans because of that they said look just shut up about politics and get on the stage and sing songs now feel I feel sorry for the decrease was actually quite a fan of them actually Alastair album earlier today, but you can see why might be better to stay out of politics like the cooked in a sense another see I might save just stick to the shoes and they and then the fashion that you're going to create a load of highly motivated alienating people ending going to try and challenge you to get bogged down know like I know I don't think that I don't think you can compare the Dixie Chicks to a journalist corporation.

I think it one of the thing is they are damn good girl after I think that's really trying to do things that they they they realise with a readership is interested then and I think they've realised you know what bothers them and contracting and reinforcing the existing leadership rather than alienating a huge Yahoo people that wouldn't have been there anywhere my guess is yes.

Iona's as it's been successful and and I think they haven't done any cheap way and I think if you look over at you know one of the only successes online Ada Conde nast was was was teen Vogue and teen Vogue was that you know me know it was it was about social justice and I think it when you look at especially for younger as a young millennial audience social justice is one of the main motivating ideas in the life.

You love being involved making a difference and fortunately I guess really unfortunately.

There's a lot right now and and an intern or that is to ignore both your mission and I think I'll send some ways you're ignoring the potential the commercial potential of your organisation and to try to sort of stay and it'll listen I was not my regional my original Instinct is to be a little bit ironic that sounds a little bit.

I think it's cos that was so do you know how I was.

How is Sarah brought up journal sickly, but it isn't the way that the people are now if anything you know what you have to do as you have to make sure that anything is sorted stand you take or any substantial riders take an end especially online you have a lot of stuff is happening to sort of jumping on a bandwagon.

Be this is you have to make sure that has reggae and that to my mind is the biggest the biggest Tamworth right now is how do you actually do that once? It's about having unique voices there isn't it an empowering them that you're not on your platform.

So that they can because otherwise that uniqueness then you're just joined joining in the Chorus of Disapproval of whatever but you have a you have a time you have a cut Boyz I don't think we have me there are individual voices within that there is certainly riders who who I'm especially if I know because of the of the way they consider trying to Fraser singer think of that even people who who are tasked with a writing as many as multiple times a day but ultimately like to know in terms of the reader with a real.

Once I think is ours are on this is to trust what the Princess and ended the riders.

I'll have to live up to two that trust and people really do they talk about that they don't talk about me.

They talk about Rebecca traister because she's a star and unbelievably article in which you saying but you're not a lot of time is Whitworth know what's going on here is a day.

Are they they do to have stayed at the cats out of taking things out whether that's just to reassure them in some ways that are you doing the face of all the super challenges that there are people who were at university of thinking it through for them.

I don't know I don't think you're right.

I think the coat hazard.

Tony has a voice.

How do you create that? How do I generate how you if you're the one of the custodians of that? How do you do a mean? I'm thinking of like TV shows when you get a TV shows created the lyric The Creator okra short Bible that says he's on the characters names this now.

Is this is what they do.

This is what they would never do and so on is there a kind of hidden 56 page style guide.

I've told Dad about what the cut is about and what it would do what it wouldn't do what I did and somebody more thoroughly than other other parts of it a lot of teaching is it is paid to the framing and the headlines anyone interesting things that you have to do.

Would you everything that answers do something it didn't used to be the case in the least if you had to think ok? Will what is it that will cause someone to pass this piece along.

What is the what is it this piece of saying about letter saying about you that you share it and I think it's really interesting so you have to sort of in some ways have an idea of you know what sort of like a picc line for this or a meter.

What is it that the people are going to think about it and an interest to modelled or two then then it won't work in social one of the ways that we grow our listenership on This podcast is that the guests themselves not tweet, but they've been on it is a great source of new traffic.

I'm hoping you tweet that you are on this.

We may well not depends.

What is that is that in a sense that your your reader's are your market is now don't be a large volume of new traffic is your reader's sharing with their coworkers colleagues friends absolute.

I think there's some extent also and this is where I tell that young journalists now.

It is a part of your job is marketing a market for your material.

I mean and you have to think about that the mean that you can't sort account on the reputation of 37 York magazine being the sort of the thing you must read till out what you do to succeed and that is a completely different perspective internalism then certainly when I started and I'll be remember friends and you know it every work in your time.

She work in politics there who would say and it is it earlier in the campaign say oh no, not where it would definitely encouraged to write about trump as often as possible as it always does well.

They could ask whether that contributed to our has been left in that would so probably.

But it if you know it is also you know fortunately unfortunately, but this is the way it is the way that I am getting one of the considerations.

You know that it is therefore for a PCO it is how well how well will it do any day one of their entertainments things will surprise you mean what are our number one piece last year called The doomed Earth catalogue the best way to ca7 looks at ways in which the world our world with no longer be in a hospital to human habitation already wasn't bottle as I recall our last seen it.

No that's really interesting about that.

It was a piece that would come across as being I'll be something Goulding still agree and I didn't because the writer is an elegant writer but because there was something about its relentless.

That's is interesting.

I know that sounds insipid to say racism but I want to read out of that I ought to be reading or feel some sense of Duty to be pulled it never sources say that like we all do have we are a bit of a fan of of an apocalyptic narrative.

I mean there is a reason why is he stayed at in the New The New Yorker about tsunamis ever gonna destroy at Seattle of years back by Catherine short sweetheart.

I do very well.

It's wide if I've moved to Seattle I'd only ever live at the top of the Space Needle will fall in the water every Sunday but it really is a mincer song that it should also avoid little about that and that is that a powerful.

No, it wasn't like a piece of journalism wiki winter anywhere really he didn't really should have like I am I'm gonna do anything to have a good bunch of phone calls with very smart people and then was interesting in this goes back to a point about the role of social media is there are some of the people?

Will you talk to you that he had exaggerated with outside and it cost us a bunch of articles being written about about it in other publications measuring that weighing that out 3pr for the article as you don't mean that was not in any sort of sensory ideas cynical idea then but it did help the discussion going off and if you leave the source material and if you really really really pleased it's point was that scientists for whatever reason which weeks ago zentosa psychoanalysing a little bit didn't want to say things are as bad as they were so in some ways the whole piece was a critique of scientists health science yeah and that played out in this in this in this is getting a bit you know he was worried now about a did afterwards.

She actually did it and annotated version of the Peace that actually preacher who can talk about about an hour's reading a book about it.

So that was a piece did that I think many publications might not have done.

Important to the work of a journalist that is almost been a generation that have got caught out by it did like them in the wrong Gear digital strategy that you guys.

I've got is incredible.

You've adopted you then gauged you turn into a positive but there are some jealous.

They just haven't quite got it.

I know so incredible journalist that you're not earth-shattering the great and have like 300 followers on Twitter does they've never been a a Twitter person engaging and causing if you're already tracer the meaning of beautiful person does not make a good journal now and I'm in some sense that can be upset.

I mean that it is also true that especially young journalist you can't is difficult to get hired unless you have a certain amount of fluency with that.

I'm not as good as it as other people are a bit bit partly because I think that one of the things you have to do is have a consistent perspective often a better consistent and I kinda right about all kinds of things still like to know if you have somebody who like me who will write about and artists in invite about like I do future of shopping in the digital age and invite about.

A movie star write about you not do anything like all over the Tail episode of late to drop me anywhere where they want it's harder to sort of doubt.

I will this is still the person to listen to about this is the death of the generalist journalist at hand and I mean should I be a journalist have a specialism you could be a really is very helpful to do that one of you, but I think it's really interesting other two people are really fast it with a man terms of like how David at is older people to Twitter if your adaptor to it and you're like under 30.

I don't know what's wrong with you because you never answer but there's a woman named Emma Stone who is now the other two credit for the new account she work with us for a long time and she actually was the crowd at one point and then she also did the invitation of phenotypic analysis tv.

Critic and then she became the market but she will engage anybody to this Valley back and forward to sit there and talk to people and this comes back to one of the

The things that has happened is that you don't use it in this is something he say recorded anything fault is a part of which is that people want to talk to other people about with their reading and watching and end and listening to people wanted to listen to humidity didn't obviously exist previously maybe you talked to a few of your friends about TV shows you wanted to do that you did the native Communities seem to exist in the past even as recently as 10 20 30 years ago was in your local Geographic community in the street in love with your neighbours now people avoid eye contact with the people in the same building and they're brilliant Communities on the Coton de around interests rather silly at rather than geography absolutely some of those just because people move around more in the used to but I think that it is it's also totally true.

I mean I think so did I sometimes you wonder how people actually are able to see other people you can have that you need to talk to somebody or can you only talk to me to phone? You know a lot of young people.

Like picking up the phone.

I think that was then this is now nobody is way to me that that is a weakness about journalism today and that is on this a lot of journalism, which is evil takes place via email it takes place oftentimes as soda players of commentary on things as opposed to actually going somewhere in talking to somebody and you can't you can't get round that you can get around you know that is as a waste of actually finding out something good old fashioned shoe leather knocking on doors.

What's going on.

Tell me tell me the story no, I mean that you wouldn't like a mitten end of the stories that really made a difference the time story about a lovely me to stuff about that.

You know anything about was involved in the other stories and ensures that she would they did they just multiple phone calls leaving those two people you don't like try and find friends of Friends you know for saying that story.

Tight and that something you'll never do emailing people agreed but the speed of the witch the me too movement came out of nowhere.

I mean I can remember and Ashley Judd wrote that article and I remember reading it thinking while I was incredibly brave.

I hope that doesn't get forgotten about weekly this not me to lead to something and then within three weeks Weinstein was charged with raping resigning other these kind of things that I meet you just the speed with which some of the you know that some of the tenets of society.

It is collapsing like that that sexism I hope it gets fixed but in the meantime.

It seems that it's blown wide open now.

I'm so quickly absolutely and it really is a um.

It's changed all kinds of expectations that I think people have an end and I think it's amazing it's changed sympathies get out.

It's it's a lot of why you wouldn't write about those things but previously if they were should have known and NFU been around you knew you know what about you, but know about Donald Trump you quote got know about.

But you are wasting but no one wrote about it, because they are you done that there was a powerful publicity apparatus around them.

They will keep you from doing the other things that were deemed necessary past part of your job if that if you didn't you know if you didn't play longer if you tried to send you a glass of beer story and that somehow got blown apart and it's really interesting and has a fundamentally different set of a protections for people than than previously an nni it sits and is one of the points did I am the Rebecca always makes Rebecca traister is said there was a 0 white.

Why do we automatically have these have the sympathies that we have why do we think that this person deserves to be successful is the paperwork you basically you know this is Spinal Tap and sexism we had this in the United Kingdom with them at the Leveson Enquiry that the the the UK press was just far too close to the Metropolitan Police under the police generally they were just having.

Rosie chats xxxchange incredibly confidential information, I'm sure it to the point where the Prestwood breaking the law hacking phones all kinds of things and the police would tacitly turning a blind eye to it because it's it that cosy relationship suited both sides absolute nnn.

That's that's that's that totally fascinating I mean in of the tablet culture in London this is something that you don't this present in New York but almost nowhere else in this country must see of of of of of single newspaper towns, but in the end of certain kinds of exchanges that do takeaways in everybody in journalism, where is print going to think that you don't have his very important because I do think that there is a sense of finality to it.

You don't think it's the same for nothing but to our branded as New York magazine as well as I think to another other brands as always meet the biggest challenge is something that the Wirral

Think about I think it says as of civilians anyway, don't worry think about it as advertising Italy don't do this isn't the same advertising is so divided up among all the different places so that it isn't supported as it used to be but I am I do think that that that that that they will continue I do things that will be an important part of many people's diets getaways for serious journalism question then where you going? You've been 14 years wait where you are now.

I hope it's not too close to the question.

Do you know them look like you have any plans to move on what we do next time in the something that I can say that it will think about this most honest anyone ever beaten survivors and very happy where I am and I really like you.

Don't magazine everybody giving a tremendous opportunities there and I'm trying to be your writing and I really enjoyed on the appears to have to sort of like flying different parts of the world and find different things but you know it has certainly changed since I started.

And I am unable to sort of remained.

I am beautiful within it and you have to say to be able to save adapt adapt to it and I have friends you know I said with The Weeknd XO with a friend who used to write frontier magazine to now makes documentary films and I have another friend who used to be a staff writer at the magazine and then took often and in search of making podcasts and apparently was there and I can show you anyone who makes podcast anonymously between different in different ways these days and on but you don't mind my first love is writing my first then I can love be able to sort of write something that are the changes the way the deep in someone's understanding of something and changes the way that I did they are they live in the world in some small way and that's when everything that the same thing and after that your packaging is one of the place where you can do that mean you know an end and that's that.

One of the things that are that it sort of is a great gift of the place Callum a huge fan of the magazine and a huge fan of your writing in particular stingrays eat in the time to come and talk with this.

Thank her so much.

Thank you so much for having me a right angles podcast in association with big things Media